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#605330 - 08/28/06 08:58 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Bengals Fan Offline
Power Poster
Bengals Fan
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
Quote:

Actually much of what Micheal is saying makes sense for him to believe. He belives in parternilism, and in a belief in an authority over all others. Michael does not believe in moral relativism, because there are universal moral truths that man cannot attain. Therefore, men are inherently immoral and no form of government can be moral.

However, some men come closer to this universal morality and they should be empowered to guide/parent those who are further away from it.

Freedom and democracy are seen by Michael as anarchy, leading to mob rule.

Does that sum it up well enough Michael or have I misstated it.




NO, you have pretty much mistated most of it. Do I believe in paternalism? Yes, to some extent it is necessary. There are too many ignorant, immoral, and/or uneducated people in this world to allow them to do whatever they want without someone making sure they do what is right. Not on every issue, but some issues are too important to be left to chance.

I do not believe in moral relativism, you are right on that account. However, I believe that the absolute moral truths can be attained by man. Are we always perfect? No. Do we have the capacity to understand right from wrong and make the correct choices? Absolutely. Do some men have a better understanding of what is right and wrong and act appropriately? Absolutely. Unless of course you think Mother Theresa and Jeffery Dalmer were equally able to understand right from wrong and act upon it, you cannot help but agree with this statement.

A form of government, in and of itself, has no moral standing. The people who run the government determine the ethics of that government. A king can be upright and just, righteous and good, or he can be in it for power and his own desires. The same can be said for a government elected official. He can be in it as a career in order to get kickbacks and donations and to sit on the hill and vote whichever way the wind blows to keep himself in power, or he can stand up and say This is who I am, and this is how I will vote, and stick to it, answering to his constituents.

Is absolute freedom good? Once again, I say no way. Some freedoms are good, but absolute freedom and liberty is not. There must be checks upon that freedom if good is to be maintained, and the security of the people maintained. Otherwise, John Wayne Gacy can do whatever he wants in the privacy of his own basement.

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#605331 - 08/28/06 09:29 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
doubledown21 Offline
100 Club
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 158
Planet Earth
Quote:

I almost forgot: a "referendum" at which the legitimacy of all these action was supposedly blessed by the people of Venezuala had all the markings of a Ukranian-style election theft, but, predictably, every dictator's favorite ex-President gave it his blessing.




I'm not disagreeing that Chavez has done some un-democratic things, but he has essentially eliminated himself as a dictator by enforcing a two-term limit on presidential terms.

Also I would be interested to read some sources about the fraudulent referendum because everything I've read is counter to this. I doubt very much it could be as blatant as the Ukrainian elections of 2004. Take it from someone who stood on the square in Kyiv and marched in the demonstrations, that was blatant. A blind man could see the fraud there. If this is so obvious, why is it not better documented?

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#605332 - 08/28/06 10:37 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Jokerman Offline
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Also I would be interested to read some sources about the fraudulent referendum because everything I've read is counter to this.




What have you read other than the "Carter Center" blessing and the media reports based on it? Try this: http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005586 as a starter.

Quote:

he has essentially eliminated himself as a dictator by enforcing a two-term limit on presidential terms




Enforcing, or promising?

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#605333 - 08/28/06 10:38 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
straw Offline
Power Poster
straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
Quote:

Quote:

Actually much of what Micheal is saying makes sense for him to believe. He belives in parternilism, and in a belief in an authority over all others. Michael does not believe in moral relativism, because there are universal moral truths that man cannot attain. Therefore, men are inherently immoral and no form of government can be moral.

However, some men come closer to this universal morality and they should be empowered to guide/parent those who are further away from it.

Freedom and democracy are seen by Michael as anarchy, leading to mob rule.

Does that sum it up well enough Michael or have I misstated it.




NO, you have pretty much mistated most of it. Do I believe in paternalism? Yes, to some extent it is necessary. There are too many ignorant, immoral, and/or uneducated people in this world to allow them to do whatever they want without someone making sure they do what is right. Not on every issue, but some issues are too important to be left to chance.

I do not believe in moral relativism, you are right on that account. However, I believe that the absolute moral truths can be attained by man. Are we always perfect? No. Do we have the capacity to understand right from wrong and make the correct choices? Absolutely. Do some men have a better understanding of what is right and wrong and act appropriately? Absolutely. Unless of course you think Mother Theresa and Jeffery Dalmer were equally able to understand right from wrong and act upon it, you cannot help but agree with this statement.

A form of government, in and of itself, has no moral standing. The people who run the government determine the ethics of that government. A king can be upright and just, righteous and good, or he can be in it for power and his own desires. The same can be said for a government elected official. He can be in it as a career in order to get kickbacks and donations and to sit on the hill and vote whichever way the wind blows to keep himself in power, or he can stand up and say This is who I am, and this is how I will vote, and stick to it, answering to his constituents.

Is absolute freedom good? Once again, I say no way. Some freedoms are good, but absolute freedom and liberty is not. There must be checks upon that freedom if good is to be maintained, and the security of the people maintained. Otherwise, John Wayne Gacy can do whatever he wants in the privacy of his own basement.




Actually it sounds like you agree with most of my characterization.

Notice how you said the people who run the government. There is a big difference between a government that derives its power from the people and a government that imposes its power on it. The moral justification for government action is highest for a government representing the people vs. a government imposing its will on its people. This is where morality and politics intersect.

Would you say that generally, freedom is better than totalitarianism? Democracy better than dicatorship?

Notice how I asked because while politcal systems may not be moral principles, political systems generally reflect the morality/immorality of its citizens. The politcal system democracy/dictatorship is a corrolary to the society's moral principles (freedom/individual rights vs. totalitarianism/statism).

I suggest you read some Locke, Hobbes, Descartes and de Tocquville. You might glean a new perspective on liberty/freedom/individualism vs. totalitarianism/paternalism.

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#605334 - 08/28/06 11:22 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Bengals Fan Offline
Power Poster
Bengals Fan
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Actually much of what Micheal is saying makes sense for him to believe. He belives in parternilism, and in a belief in an authority over all others. Michael does not believe in moral relativism, because there are universal moral truths that man cannot attain. Therefore, men are inherently immoral and no form of government can be moral.

However, some men come closer to this universal morality and they should be empowered to guide/parent those who are further away from it.

Freedom and democracy are seen by Michael as anarchy, leading to mob rule.

Does that sum it up well enough Michael or have I misstated it.




NO, you have pretty much mistated most of it. Do I believe in paternalism? Yes, to some extent it is necessary. There are too many ignorant, immoral, and/or uneducated people in this world to allow them to do whatever they want without someone making sure they do what is right. Not on every issue, but some issues are too important to be left to chance.

I do not believe in moral relativism, you are right on that account. However, I believe that the absolute moral truths can be attained by man. Are we always perfect? No. Do we have the capacity to understand right from wrong and make the correct choices? Absolutely. Do some men have a better understanding of what is right and wrong and act appropriately? Absolutely. Unless of course you think Mother Theresa and Jeffery Dalmer were equally able to understand right from wrong and act upon it, you cannot help but agree with this statement.

A form of government, in and of itself, has no moral standing. The people who run the government determine the ethics of that government. A king can be upright and just, righteous and good, or he can be in it for power and his own desires. The same can be said for a government elected official. He can be in it as a career in order to get kickbacks and donations and to sit on the hill and vote whichever way the wind blows to keep himself in power, or he can stand up and say This is who I am, and this is how I will vote, and stick to it, answering to his constituents.

Is absolute freedom good? Once again, I say no way. Some freedoms are good, but absolute freedom and liberty is not. There must be checks upon that freedom if good is to be maintained, and the security of the people maintained. Otherwise, John Wayne Gacy can do whatever he wants in the privacy of his own basement.




Actually it sounds like you agree with most of my characterization.

Notice how you said the people who run the government. There is a big difference between a government that derives its power from the people and a government that imposes its power on it. The moral justification for government action is highest for a government representing the people vs. a government imposing its will on its people. This is where morality and politics intersect.

Would you say that generally, freedom is better than totalitarianism? Democracy better than dicatorship?

Notice how I asked because while politcal systems may not be moral principles, political systems generally reflect the morality/immorality of its citizens. The politcal system democracy/dictatorship is a corrolary to the society's moral principles (freedom/individual rights vs. totalitarianism/statism).

I suggest you read some Locke, Hobbes, Descartes and de Tocquville. You might glean a new perspective on liberty/freedom/individualism vs. totalitarianism/paternalism.




Straw,

I can assure you I have read most of these people, with the exception of duTocqueville. However, I am not convinced that ultimately absolute freedom is better than absolute paternalism. The best forms of government combine both. There should be some freedoms, however, there must be checks.

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#605335 - 08/28/06 11:33 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
straw Offline
Power Poster
straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
How about we not deal with absolutes, since there are never any?

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?

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#605336 - 08/29/06 01:10 AM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Bengals Fan Offline
Power Poster
Bengals Fan
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
Quote:

How about we not deal with absolutes, since there are never any?

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?




In general? A balance of both.

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#605337 - 08/29/06 01:46 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Jokerman Offline
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Quote:

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?




In general? A balance of both.




Take some highly valued oil
Add some government-forced toil
One country, one man
Judges? He don't give a damn
Dictators are made of this

Don't forget those election things
Jimmy Carter to kiss his ring
The left says "schwing"
He's less legit than Xiaoping
Dictators are made of this...


Everybody sing!

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#605338 - 08/29/06 02:00 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
straw Offline
Power Poster
straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
Quote:

Quote:

How about we not deal with absolutes, since there are never any?

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?




In general? A balance of both.




And who would be the paternal entity in this combination?

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#605339 - 08/29/06 02:18 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
HappyGilmore Offline
10K Club
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,844
Pulling people out of the ditc...
Quote:

and unified the nation under one language




I'm sure the Basque's would disagree with you on that
_________________________
Providing alternative truths since the invention of time

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#605340 - 08/29/06 04:07 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Jokerman Offline
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Then dissolve the lawmakers
Replace media with your fakers
Take out the unions, just for flavor
Spread your lucre everyday
See how the power stays
You’re so great at gaining Fidel’s favor…

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#605341 - 08/29/06 05:28 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
HappyGilmore Offline
10K Club
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,844
Pulling people out of the ditc...
Quote:

There are too many ignorant, immoral, and/or uneducated people in this world to allow them to do whatever they want without someone making sure they do what is right. Not on every issue, but some issues are too important to be left to chance.





So who decides who is ignorant, immoral, or uneducated? You? My Mother lives in a region of a Central American country where there is no "formal" education such as in the US. Many of them would be considered ignorant and uneducated by our standards, but I've been there 3 times, and they possess knowledge I'll never have. Strange logic there Michael, very strange. History has shown that when one group deems themselves above the rest, and tries to force their ways on them, the results aren't good.
_________________________
Providing alternative truths since the invention of time

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#605342 - 08/29/06 05:31 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Erl of Baltimore Offline
Platinum Poster
Erl of Baltimore
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 553
Memorial Stadium
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?




In general? A balance of both.




Take some highly valued oil
Add some government-forced toil
One country, one man
Judges? He don't give a damn
Dictators are made of this

Don't forget those election things
Jimmy Carter to kiss his ring
The left says "schwing"
He's less legit than Xiaoping
Dictators are made of this...


Everybody sing!


Is this song sung to the tune of "Memories are made of this" by Dean Martin? Just wanted to know.
_________________________
Dear World: WE ARE BROKE!
signed: The American Public
So no more money for you...now most of you can hate us for free!

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#605343 - 08/29/06 05:36 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
RandomName Offline
Diamond Poster
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,373
Austin, TX
Quote:

I'm not disagreeing that Chavez has done some un-democratic things, but he has essentially eliminated himself as a dictator by enforcing a two-term limit on presidential terms.




I thought he was recently intimating he planned to stay in power until 2026 or something like that?

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#605344 - 08/29/06 06:59 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Jokerman Offline
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Quote:

Is this song sung to the tune of "Memories are made of this" by Dean Martin?




Hey, you're right, it would kind of go with that, wouldn't it...

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#605345 - 08/30/06 02:57 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Jokerman Offline
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Take some highly valued oil
Add some government-forced toil
One country, one man
Judges? He don't give a damn
Dictators are made of this

Don't forget those election things
Jimmy Carter to kiss his ring
The left says "schwing"
He's less legit than Xiaoping
Dictators are made of this

Then dissolve the lawmakers
Replace media with your fakers
Take out the unions, just for flavor
Spread your lucre everyday
See how the power stays
You’re so great at gaining Fidel’s favor…


Come on, people! I deserved several LOLs and at least one or two ROFLMAO.

Nevermind - Sweetpeas says I'm not witty...

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#605346 - 08/30/06 03:27 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Bengals Fan Offline
Power Poster
Bengals Fan
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

How about we not deal with absolutes, since there are never any?

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?




In general? A balance of both.




And who would be the paternal entity in this combination?




That would depend entirely on the government, now wouldn't it?

Oh, and as far as the Basques, from over a dozen languages to one Quebecish holdout is pretty effective, now isn't it?

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#605347 - 08/30/06 03:31 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
Bengals Fan Offline
Power Poster
Bengals Fan
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
Quote:

Quote:

There are too many ignorant, immoral, and/or uneducated people in this world to allow them to do whatever they want without someone making sure they do what is right. Not on every issue, but some issues are too important to be left to chance.





So who decides who is ignorant, immoral, or uneducated? You? My Mother lives in a region of a Central American country where there is no "formal" education such as in the US. Many of them would be considered ignorant and uneducated by our standards, but I've been there 3 times, and they possess knowledge I'll never have. Strange logic there Michael, very strange. History has shown that when one group deems themselves above the rest, and tries to force their ways on them, the results aren't good.




Did I say formal education is required? Seems to me many people lack the common sense necessary to govern themselves completely and have absolute freedom. Also, it is often the highly educated that end up the serial killers. My point stands that there must be a level of paternalism to prevent people from acting wrongly.

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#605348 - 08/30/06 05:05 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
straw Offline
Power Poster
straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

How about we not deal with absolutes, since there are never any?

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?




In general? A balance of both.




And who would be the paternal entity in this combination?




That would depend entirely on the government, now wouldn't it?

Oh, and as far as the Basques, from over a dozen languages to one Quebecish holdout is pretty effective, now isn't it?




Just to be clear, you don't believe a government formed by the will of the people is morally superior to a government forced onto the people?

And that a benevolent dictatorship is better than a democracy?

As to the paternal entity, are you saying it matters not what that entity is i.e. Royal, Military, Fascist, Religious, so long as they are benevolent?

And since you seem to admire Franco, since he was malevolent to some, but not most, does benevolence count if benevolent to the majority?

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#605349 - 08/30/06 05:06 PM Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
straw Offline
Power Poster
straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There are too many ignorant, immoral, and/or uneducated people in this world to allow them to do whatever they want without someone making sure they do what is right. Not on every issue, but some issues are too important to be left to chance.





So who decides who is ignorant, immoral, or uneducated? You? My Mother lives in a region of a Central American country where there is no "formal" education such as in the US. Many of them would be considered ignorant and uneducated by our standards, but I've been there 3 times, and they possess knowledge I'll never have. Strange logic there Michael, very strange. History has shown that when one group deems themselves above the rest, and tries to force their ways on them, the results aren't good.




Did I say formal education is required? Seems to me many people lack the common sense necessary to govern themselves completely and have absolute freedom. Also, it is often the highly educated that end up the serial killers. My point stands that there must be a level of paternalism to prevent people from acting wrongly .




And what is this based on? What the paternal entity says it is?

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