Thread Options 
|
#605305 - 08/25/06 08:33 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
Diamond Poster
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,373
Austin, TX
|
Mary Anastasia O'Grady writes about Chavez just about every Friday in the WSJ (and the Economist covers his antics as well). I'd recommend that interested parties review her columns. Here's one: http://www.opinionjournal.com/wsj/?id=110007819
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605306 - 08/25/06 10:31 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
You're not really understanding the problem with moral equivalence, are you? Let me try to explain: The US Army invaded Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany fought back. This does not mean that the actions of Nazi Germany and the US Army were morally equivalent.
Similarly, the US has advocated for a different government than this dicatator's in Venezuala, and is supporting democratic governments that will oppose him. The dictator has advocated for an overthrow of the US government, and is allying himself with other dictators that share his goal. That does not mean that the actions of the US and Chavez are morally equivalent.
excellent illustration of your point. i wonder what institution(s) failed us that we have Americans who cannot make these distinctions? it troubles me for our future if we cannot agree on what's right and what's wrong. it's really not so difficult.
ok, start piling on my a$$.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605308 - 08/26/06 05:10 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
|
Quote:
Quote:
But aren't we calling for the overthrow of HIS government?...he has a point...
You're not really understanding the problem with moral equivalence, are you? Let me try to explain: The US Army invaded Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany fought back. This does not mean that the actions of Nazi Germany and the US Army were morally equivalent.
Similarly, the US has advocated for a different government than this dicatator's in Venezuala, and is supporting democratic governments that will oppose him. The dictator has advocated for an overthrow of the US government, and is allying himself with other dictators that share his goal. That does not mean that the actions of the US and Chavez are morally equivalent.
What makes our form of government morally superior to a dictatorship? It isn't as if Chavez, unlike Saddam, is a genocidal maniac who is being evil to his people.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605309 - 08/28/06 02:03 AM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,350
The he11 of suburbia
|
Quote:
...genocidal maniac who is being evil to his people.
GWB also fits this description.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605310 - 08/28/06 02:28 AM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Really? Genocidal? I'd be interested in the text of the speech wherein the "final solution" regarding the subhuman _____ was discussed. Can you supply this? Where are the SS? the Brownshirts? You use very charged language, but I wonder if you can back it up with evidence. Where are the stormtroopers in the streets? You do know that storm troopers carried a hint of fear before Star Wars don't you? Can you point to any such activity? The old standby will work, people being dragged, kicking and screaming from their houses, never to be seen again. I look forward to the information.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605311 - 08/28/06 01:25 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
|
Quote:
Quote:
...genocidal maniac who is being evil to his people.
GWB also fits this description.
Pardon me? In what way has GWB been genocidal? In what way has he acted against his people?
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605312 - 08/28/06 01:25 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
|
Quote:
What makes our form of government morally superior to a dictatorship?
Nevermind, Michael. If you don't have an inherent understanding of this, I'm not going to be able to convince you of anything.
Anon asked ComplyGuy:
Quote:
You do know that storm troopers carried a hint of fear before Star Wars don't you?
I'm betting "no", based on the command of history he's displayed elsewhere.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605313 - 08/28/06 01:33 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
10K Club
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,854
Pulling people out of the ditc...
|
when you're number 1, everyone always wants to take you down
_________________________
Providing alternative truths since the invention of time
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605314 - 08/28/06 01:41 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
|
Quote:
Quote:
What makes our form of government morally superior to a dictatorship?
Nevermind, Michael. If you don't have an inherent understanding of this, I'm not going to be able to convince you of anything.
I'm asking you to explain why you think it is MORALLY superior. There can be benevolent dictatorships. There can even be benevolent FACIST dictatorships. Ask anyone who lived under Franco if they would have traded what he did for Spain for democracy. They will tell you emphatically NO!
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605315 - 08/28/06 02:31 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
|
The Generalissimo wasn't very "benevolent" towards the unions. Or those who didn't want to follow the teachings of the Church.
The fact is, the only reason people remember Franco fondly is because he didn't get heavily involved in WWII. Otherwise, he would stand just as condemned by history as does Mussolini.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605316 - 08/28/06 03:07 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
|
Quote:
The Generalissimo wasn't very "benevolent" towards the unions. Or those who didn't want to follow the teachings of the Church.
The fact is, the only reason people remember Franco fondly is because he didn't get heavily involved in WWII. Otherwise, he would stand just as condemned by history as does Mussolini.
Actually, during a period of world war, he kept the streets of the nation safe. He brought them out of a horrible recession, and unified the nation under one language. Keeping a nation in the heart of a continent overrun by war safe is in itself something to be admired.
As far as being benevolent to unions, I personally think our government shouldn't be quite so benevolent to the unions. Companies that require their employees to spend part of their pay to join a union isn't free enterprise. Unions that kill small businesses aren't benevolent. Unions that rob pension plans aren't benevolent.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605317 - 08/28/06 03:30 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
|
Ah, maybe a little fascism would do our country good, eh Michael?
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605318 - 08/28/06 04:19 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
|
Quote:
Ah, maybe a little fascism would do our country good, eh Michael?
All I am saying is that there is no moral superiority to a form of government, only in it's leaders. I'm not saying that all facist governments are good. I'm not saying all monarchs are good or bad, but there have been some who ruled as nobles and did good things for their people. Democracy is not in and of itself morally superior to any other government.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605319 - 08/28/06 04:44 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
Gold Star
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 257
|
Quote:
Democracy is not in and of itself morally superior to any other government.
In a democracy (or more accurately) a representive republic, power is derived from the consent of the governed. That fosters freedom and liberty, or at least creates an environment where freedom and liberty will most likely and likely does thrive. That makes it a morally superior form of government. Sorry. Dictators and monarchs get/took their power by other means. Too bad you missed school the day these things were taught.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605320 - 08/28/06 05:26 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
|
Quote:
Quote:
Democracy is not in and of itself morally superior to any other government.
In a democracy (or more accurately) a representive republic, power is derived from the consent of the governed. That fosters freedom and liberty, or at least creates an environment where freedom and liberty will most likely and likely does thrive. That makes it a morally superior form of government. Sorry. Dictators and monarchs get/took their power by other means. Too bad you missed school the day these things were taught.
I didn't miss school at all. Perhaps you simply missed ethics classes where what morality was is defined.
The form of government does not give more freedom or liberty. It gives an impression of more freedom and liberty, but the actual freedom depends on the leaders. Are not many Americans up in arms right now because they believe their freedoms are being impossed upon? Have we not seen in the past that our elections are really not giving us the consent of the majority of the citizens, but rather a minority? How many times has the winner of the popular vote not ended up the person who wins an election? How often have our leaders said they were going to do one thing, and then not done what we elected them to do?
Also, any leader maintains power with the consent of the governed, whether it is a monarchy, an oligarchy, a republic, or a democracy. Ask Caesar if he had the consent of the governed. Ask King George. Ask many leaders who took power in ways other than our government if they need the consent of the governed.
One other thing, you say our form of government is morally superior because of freedoms and liberties. Are you so sure you want to stand on the idea that freedom and liberty are an absolute good?
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605321 - 08/28/06 05:58 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
Platinum Poster
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 553
Memorial Stadium
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Democracy is not in and of itself morally superior to any other government.
In a democracy (or more accurately) a representive republic, power is derived from the consent of the governed. That fosters freedom and liberty, or at least creates an environment where freedom and liberty will most likely and likely does thrive. That makes it a morally superior form of government. Sorry. Dictators and monarchs get/took their power by other means. Too bad you missed school the day these things were taught.
I didn't miss school at all. Perhaps you simply missed ethics classes where what morality was is defined.
The form of government does not give more freedom or liberty. It gives an impression of more freedom and liberty, but the actual freedom depends on the leaders. Are not many Americans up in arms right now because they believe their freedoms are being impossed upon? Have we not seen in the past that our elections are really not giving us the consent of the majority of the citizens, but rather a minority? How many times has the winner of the popular vote not ended up the person who wins an election? How often have our leaders said they were going to do one thing, and then not done what we elected them to do?
Also, any leader maintains power with the consent of the governed, whether it is a monarchy, an oligarchy, a republic, or a democracy. Ask Caesar if he had the consent of the governed. Ask King George. Ask many leaders who took power in ways other than our government if they need the consent of the governed.
One other thing, you say our form of government is morally superior because of freedoms and liberties. Are you so sure you want to stand on the idea that freedom and liberty are an absolute good?
I usually stay out of these discussions, but I feel the need to respond. Do you seriously believe any of the monarchies/theocracies/dictatorships you mentioned were benevolent in nature. I will grant this: the most efficient form of government is a benevolent dictatorship. The inherent problem with a dictatorship is since it was not convened by the consent of the governed, and you have to agree the majority of dictatorships (now and then) were NOT benevolent. Dictators tend to follow the doctrine of: Power Corrupts, Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. So instead of spending time being benevolent to its citizens it spends more time and resources retaining control over the citizens. They accomplish this a myriad of ways, generally it revolves around instilling fear in the citizenry or outright torture, rape, murder. Our form of government is morally superior to a dictatorship because of the checks and balances built into the system which minimize the risk of the above occurring to the citizenry. Do some of us take it for granted? Absolutely
That's why every day our citizens should kiss the ground they walk on and thank whomever they believe in for the luck of belonging to a country where they don't live each day in constant fear of reprisals, against them or family members, for speaking their minds.
Whose fault is it that our leaders are elected by the minority? Ours alone
_________________________
Dear World: WE ARE BROKE!
signed: The American Public
So no more money for you...now most of you can hate us for free!
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605323 - 08/28/06 06:35 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
|
Quote:
Have we not seen in the past that our elections are really not giving us the consent of the majority of the citizens, but rather a minority? How many times has the winner of the popular vote not ended up the person who wins an election?
Michael has moved to the radical left. Someone must have turned him on to the dem underground. To answer his question, my calculations show that in approximately 0.01% of federal elections, the winner of the popular vote was not elected.
Quote:
Are you so sure you want to stand on the idea that freedom and liberty are an absolute good?
Good grief...
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605324 - 08/28/06 06:41 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
|
Quote:
Everything he did, he did for the people of Spain.
Everything I Do (I Do It for the People of Spain)
From the Soudtrack to Generalissimo: Prince of Dictators
I'd censor for you,
Declare myself king for you,
Cooperate with Nazis for you,
Make others die for you...
You know it's true,
Everything I do,
O-oh, I do it for you.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605326 - 08/28/06 08:05 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
100 Club
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 158
Planet Earth
|
My biggest problem with this thread is this: Chavez was ELECTED - thus he is NOT, I repeat NOT, a dictator. He is up for election again later this year I believe. He is hugely popular with his own people, and just because he has taken an anti-US stance, we have labeled him a dictator. Let's not stradle the fence on this one, if we are going to support democracy as per the Bush doctrine, we are going to have to accept that sometimes the democratically elected leaders are not going to be our allies (see Hamas in Palestine)
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605328 - 08/28/06 08:42 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
|
Quote:
My biggest problem with this thread is this: Chavez was ELECTED - thus he is NOT, I repeat NOT, a dictator.
Mr. Chavez was indeed elected, several years after leading a failed coup. After being elected, he dissolved the legislature, declared a judicial state of emergency (giving him the unabridged power to remove any judge), established rule by Presidential decree, and took control of the media.
The same lefties who think that it is undemocratic to replace Sandra Day O'Connor with someone not of the exact same ideological stripe find Chavez's Venezuala to be an enlightened democracy. Big surprise.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
#605329 - 08/28/06 08:44 PM
Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm
|
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
|
I almost forgot: a "referendum" at which the legitimacy of all these action was supposedly blessed by the people of Venezuala had all the markings of a Ukranian-style election theft, but, predictably, every dictator's favorite ex-President gave it his blessing.
|
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
Previous Thread
Index