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#675830 - 01/30/07 08:34 PM CTR question
mdog76 Offline
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If an account has the customer listed first, then the business name w/o a DBA, how should this be reported on the CTR.

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#675840 - 01/30/07 08:39 PM Re: CTR question mdog76
Bailey. Offline
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Are you saying it's a DBA account that just isn't specifically titled "DBA"? If so, you'd fill it out the same as any other DBA account - individual's name in line 2 and the business name in line 5.

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#675862 - 01/30/07 08:48 PM Re: CTR question Bailey.
mdog76 Offline
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Yes. Different problem-Our system will print out a second sheet with the business name and person's name on it, and in this case, we choose mutlipe persons on line 1, is this correct? It will not print out the DBA on line 5, we have to manually type it in line 5.

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#675887 - 01/30/07 09:03 PM Re: CTR question mdog76
Bailey. Offline
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You are to list any individual who benefits in section A. The person and his business are not defined as 2 separate individuals - do not check multiple persons.

However, if this is a cash in, and there is more than one owner on the account (i.e. some SPs are set up with a spouse as a co-owner), then you would check multiple persons and use the section A overflow.

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#675951 - 01/30/07 09:46 PM Re: CTR question Bailey.
devsfan Offline
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There was a posting about 1-2 weeks ago on this very issue and a FinCEN ruling dated Feb 10, 2006 that says that you should identify both the individual and the BDA in separate Section A and check multiple persons.

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#676118 - 01/31/07 12:57 PM Re: CTR question devsfan
Bailey. Offline
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Why would you check multiple persons? If I'm Bailey Smith, operating Bailey's Flowers (solely) out of my basement, have a windfall cash deposit due to a great Valentine's Day into a single business (SP) account, how is that multiple?

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#676123 - 01/31/07 01:19 PM Re: CTR question Bailey.
rlcarey Offline
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Bailey,

While I personnally agree with you - it is because FinCEN has said so:

http://www.fincen.gov/Ruling-MikeVallelyOct3.pdf
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#676128 - 01/31/07 01:40 PM Re: CTR question rlcarey
Bailey. Offline
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So in one breath they say a SP can have a NOW account and no co-owners because it's essentially a personal account... and in the next breath for CTR purposes the individual and business are two separate entities??? Makes me wonder sometimes whether regulators TRY to make it impossible!
Last edited by Bailey.; 01/31/07 01:41 PM.
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#676131 - 01/31/07 01:45 PM Re: CTR question Bailey.
rlcarey Offline
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You have to realize that FinCEN has nothing to do with Regulation DD and they are not really a related issue. This has nothing to do with NOW account eligibility - it is a reporting issue only.
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#676151 - 01/31/07 02:09 PM Re: CTR question rlcarey
Bailey. Offline
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I know... I was lumping all rule-makers together for a comment of exasperation. Not trying to confuse any readers. Sorry if I did!

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#676225 - 01/31/07 03:17 PM Re: CTR question Bailey.
Kelsey D Offline
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Ohio
I've been doing this wrong and am attempting to fix it now. Previously I had only completed one Section A. I understand how to complete Section A for the individual, but I'm confused about Section A for the DBA. If I separate the DBA and put it one page 2, do I put the name of individual in #2, 3, and 4 and the name of the business in #5, with the individual's SSN in #6?

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#676260 - 01/31/07 03:41 PM Re: CTR question Kelsey D
devsfan Offline
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It would depend on whether or not the business has a business address that is different from the owner's home address (many would) and if the business has an EIN (as Ken noted they would have to if the business employees people other than the owner). We too were completing the CTRs incorrectly all these years and have just changed. We also asked several of our SP owners if the business had an EIN and many do. We updated our system with these numbers. Live and learn.

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#676269 - 01/31/07 03:43 PM Re: CTR question devsfan
Kelsey D Offline
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Ohio
They have different addresses, but the business does not have an EIN.

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#676583 - 01/31/07 06:28 PM Re: CTR question Kelsey D
devsfan Offline
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Since the business does not have an EIN you would enter the owner's SS#. All other info (name and address) would be that of the business.

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#676664 - 01/31/07 06:59 PM Re: CTR question devsfan
Kelsey D Offline
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Ohio
Thanks! Would I enter the owner's name in 2, 3, and 4 and the business name in 5, OR would I list the business name in 2 with 3, 4, and 5 blank?

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#677114 - 01/31/07 10:08 PM Re: CTR question Kelsey D
devsfan Offline
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It is suggested that Page 1 of Part 1 Section A show the owner in 2/3/4/6/etc so that you do not have to complete Part 2 (aside from checking box e) and then on page 2 you would show the business name in 2/6/etc. Is this clear?

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#677699 - 02/01/07 05:56 PM Re: CTR question devsfan
John Burnett Offline
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As for the Section A entry for the sole proprietorship business:

If you report an EIN for the business, it has to agree with the name associated with that EIN at the IRS. And that is the individual's name, not the business's name when you're dealing with a sole prop. Put the individual's name in items 2, etc., and the assumed name (DBA name, if you prefer) in item 5. Use the business address, omit the DOB and ID info.
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#677788 - 02/01/07 06:49 PM Re: CTR question John Burnett
Kelsey D Offline
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Ohio
Thanks, John and devsfan!

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#684467 - 02/09/07 08:10 PM Re: CTR question John Burnett
Tyke Offline
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Sorry to beat a dead horse but...if I am Teddy Bear operating a business known as Teddys, using my ssn and all my perosal information on the account the only difference is I have a different address, I would fill out 2 section A's showing my home address in one and my business address in the other?

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#684811 - 02/10/07 03:19 PM Re: CTR question Tyke
John Burnett Offline
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On the front of the form, Teddy Bear's personal information appears, and no entry goes in item 5. Be sure to check "multiple persons" in item #1. Then check box B(e) (conducted on own behalf).

Then, prepare a second Section A listing Teddy Bear in the name items, add the DBA name in item 5, and use the business address. If Teddy Bear uses an EIN for payroll, it should go in place of the SSN. Don't include a DOB or item 14 info in this entry.
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#685094 - 02/12/07 04:27 PM Re: CTR question John Burnett
Tyke Offline
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Thanks for the clarification!

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#685096 - 02/12/07 04:27 PM Re: CTR question John Burnett
Tyke Offline
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Thanks for the clarification!

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#685097 - 02/12/07 04:27 PM Re: CTR question John Burnett
Tyke Offline
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Thanks for the clarification! sorry posted twice
Last edited by Tyke; 02/12/07 04:28 PM.
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#685469 - 02/12/07 08:43 PM Re: CTR question John Burnett
elliemae Offline
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Posts: 26
By the sea ...
I just read this thread, the thread from a month ago, and the referenced FinCEN 2/06 ruling (only a year late!) So, I have just two final questions to clarify all the scenarios and maybe beat this topic into submission:

1. If the d/b/a uses the personal SSN AND the personal address, does only one Section A have to be completed, filling in #5 with the d/b/a name?

2. If we've been completing these incorrectly for a year, do we have to file amended CTRs?

eeeek!

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#686406 - 02/13/07 10:18 PM Re: CTR question elliemae
John Burnett Offline
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If the place of business is the individual's home, and there is no EIN (let's say the individual does small-business bookkeeping from a home office), the only reason to have a second Section A entry would be for the assumed name, if used. That can certainly go in item 5 on the front, and I see no utility in providing a phony second "person" report. But that is my opinion, and you should not rely on it as authoritative just because it makes sense.

As to back-filing, I suggest you contact the IRS DCC for a backfiling determination. I'll bet they say "don't bother," but I could be wrong. The only way to satisfy a nit-picking examiner or auditor is to get a determination and follow it.
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