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#714586 - 04/11/07 03:06 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
straw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Mexico
straw, i do not know the international law rules that deal with this precise issue. but if they do not allow for individualized sanctions, i think they need to be rewritten; if they are "one size fits all" i think that is absolutely absurd.

what is acceptable? make iran change how they act in theinternational community. this includes NOT making them more insular. so, have the punishment be effective for THEM. not what would be effective for guatemala.


And woulddn't cutting the gas supply be the most effective punishment for them?

Regarding international law, sanctions are not acts of war. Individualized sanctions are allowed, meaning any actor can cut off trade of any good with any other act.

Contrast this with a blockade, which is an act of war, as this is an actor cutting off another actor's trade with ALL other actors.

Again, laws cannot be enforced based on the results in each scenario. Either sanctions are acts of war or they are not. It is unworkable to say that gas sanctions are ok against one country, but are an act of war against another.

Whom would determine which sanctions are acts of war and which aren't.

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#714592 - 04/11/07 03:09 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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As we speak now, Cuba, Iran, Syria, North Korea are all under OFAC sanctions and have been for years, yet we do not call these acts of war.
Last edited by AMLFella; 04/11/07 03:09 PM.
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#714619 - 04/11/07 03:22 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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Quote:
And woulddn't cutting the gas supply be the most effective punishment for them?

i don't think so because i think the act would galvanize them together against us rather than having them actually work with us (theint; community). but your question is loaded because, in your opinion, it WOULD be "best" for usbecauseit would causethem togo towar; the outcome you desire.

Quote:
Either sanctions are acts of war or they are not. It is unworkable to say that gas sanctions are ok against one country, but are an act of war against another.

translation: no ron! one size DOES fit all!

Quote:
Whom would determine which sanctions are acts of war and which aren't.

maybe people who don;t try to do intl politics on a chart. maybe people who think through "what would be a good punishment toget them to ralize the error of their ways but yet not too "good" that we would have diminishing returns (or great returns if, like you, you favor war)?"

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#714627 - 04/11/07 03:27 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
straw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Mexico
[

Quote:
Whom would determine which sanctions are acts of war and which aren't.

maybe people who don;t try to do intl politics on a chart. maybe people who think through "what would be a good punishment toget them to ralize the error of their ways but yet not too "good" that we would have diminishing returns (or great returns if, like you, you favor war)?"


Ron, you are talking about what types of sanctions to apply to achieve a desired outcome. No question you have to way the pros/cons and consquences of leveling a sanction.

I am taking issue with your assertion that a particular sanction is an act of war because of the impact. You are dealing in the specific, I am dealing in the general-framework of what you are proposing.

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#714635 - 04/11/07 03:38 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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i see. you do realize the limitations of arguing on a messageboard, don't you?

for me--and i thought i said this-- was that the general framework needs to be broad enough so that individualized solutions can be tailored to the problem whatever or where ever that might be.

so you gave a specific example of something allowed by the general framework and i was saying why that in paricular wouldn't work.

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#714638 - 04/11/07 03:40 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
straw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Mexico
i see. you do realize the limitations of arguing on a messageboard, don't you?

for me--and i thought i said this-- was that the general framework needs to be broad enough so that individualized solutions can be tailored to the problem whatever or where ever that might be.

so you gave a specific example of something allowed by the general framework and i was saying why that in paricular wouldn't work.


Gas sanctions against Iran may not work, but are they an act of war?

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#714643 - 04/11/07 03:45 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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Quote:
Gas sanctions against Iran may not work, but are they an act of war?

that's semantics. they are sanctions that would effectively be an act of war.

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#715004 - 04/11/07 08:50 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
straw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Mexico
Quote:
Gas sanctions against Iran may not work, but are they an act of war?

that's semantics. they are sanctions that would effectively be an act of war.


Again, certain sanctions are acts of war and certain sanctions are not.

Which items can I put on a sanction list without it being an act of war against
Iran?
Lebanon?
Syria?
North Korea?

And who decides which items are ok to sanction and which ones are not?

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#715057 - 04/11/07 10:14 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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Quote:
Which items can I put on a sanction list without it being an act of war against
Iran?
Lebanon?
Syria?
North Korea?

well, look at it on a country by country basis. why do you keep requesting a one-size-fits-all answer, straw?


Quote:
And who decides which items are ok to sanction and which ones are not?

hopefully people who realize that sanctions on gas for a non gas-producing nation and bananas would have much different outcomes.


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#715062 - 04/11/07 10:24 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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So each actor decides which sanctions are acts of war and which are not, and if the sanctions have too great an impact on the sanctioned actor, it is an act of war.

That is a great system Ron.

Once again, not about the outcome. Think con law; do you only look at the outcome and then construct a legal theory around the outcome, or do you take the legal theory and apply it to the facts to determine the outcome.

I am not looking for a one size fits all answer. I am looking at how you enforce what you are proposing. How does that work under International Law.

You do know we actually have a set of laws right?

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#715069 - 04/11/07 10:49 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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ok, to think that the entire world actually works under international law principles is absolutely laughable. sure it works out great with some and obviously we really don't have problems with those countries we agree with. amirite?

but with others it is more political than it is a matter of enforceable or applicable law. you essentially have to enforce and go with what will work.

and you think nothing will work. i disagree.

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#715072 - 04/11/07 10:58 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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You have absolutely no idea what I am talking about.

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#715082 - 04/12/07 12:00 AM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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please, explain.

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#715212 - 04/12/07 01:17 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
Once again, not about the outcome. Think con law; do you (Ron) only look at the outcome and then construct a legal theory around the outcome, or do you take the legal theory and apply it to the facts to determine the outcome.


Oh, oh, oh - I know the answer to this one!

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#715238 - 04/12/07 01:42 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Jokerman
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ok j, enlighten me.

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#715265 - 04/12/07 02:03 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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No, I'm sure it's not possible for me to enlighten you.

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#715326 - 04/12/07 03:03 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ron Mexico
please, explain.


I have been trying for at least 2 pages. it is like in City Slickers, where Billy Crystal is trying to teach how to record a tv show on a VCR, and Bruno Kirby says

"he doesn't get it...he'll never get it. You've been at it for three hours. THe cows can record a show by now."

Kind of where I am at.

Let's just let it go.

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#715345 - 04/12/07 03:25 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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why?

what i think is happening is that i am advocating for a broader rule of law than you are advocating for; i want the law to be broad enough to be effective.

economic sanctions on any offensive nation as decided by the united nations security council shall be such that the offending nation will become likely to comply with the underlying reason for such sanction but such sanctions shall not be such that it would lead the nation into war.

something like that.

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#715368 - 04/12/07 03:49 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
straw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Mexico
why?

what i think is happening is that i am advocating for a broader rule of law than you are advocating for; i want the law to be broad enough to be effective.

economic sanctions on any offensive nation as decided by the united nations security council shall be such that the offending nation will become likely to comply with the underlying reason for such sanction but such sanctions shall not be such that it would lead the nation into war.

something like that.


First, the UN does not/should not need to approve each and every sanction.

Second, what you propose is not a rule of law, it is a rule of fact.

Third, in your scenario, a nation is compelled to trade its goods with every other nation. Why must I sell to you? Why do I not have the right to decide i don't want to sell to you?
Second,

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#715373 - 04/12/07 03:54 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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i agree, countries should feel free to sanction to theirheart's content...just realize that there are consequences to what they do. i only "drafted" a law to help figure out your PoV.

straw, then what are you proposing? it sounds like "if you can't play by everybody else's rules, we'll be forced to invade. afterall, we all follow the rule of law and you must too."

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#715380 - 04/12/07 03:58 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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Sanctions are not acts of war.

You are confusing consequences/results with law.

What you said earlier was cutting off gas to Iran is an act of war.

Follow that through logically. If it is an act of war, the sanctioning country is the agressor (under international law) and Iran could petition the UN for action against the agressor.

Is that what you are saying?

I am saying that your system, using sanctions, but not sanctions that will lead to war, is unworkable, useless and completely ineffective.

Sanctions can only work if they have an impact, and that impact must be significant.

Either we have international law or we don't. What do treaties mean if signers can violate them with impugnity?

Iran signed non-proliferation treaty. They broke it, there should be consequences.

But to you, the consequences shouldn't be too harsh, lest the Iranians get too upset.

I just don't understand that.

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#715403 - 04/12/07 04:15 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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Quote:
Sanctions are not acts of war.

You are confusing consequences/results with law.

some sanctions are tanatmount to acts of war given the specifics involved. you are confusing reality with academia.

Quote:
What you said earlier was cutting off gas to Iran is an act of war.

i said it would effectively be an act of war.

Quote:
I am saying that your system, using sanctions, but not sanctions that will lead to war, is unworkable, useless and completely ineffective.

i posted articles and posited regarding the britons situation that it may actually be working already. you actually believe the rhetoric and bravado or at least take it literally.

Quote:
Sanctions can only work if they have an impact, and that impact must be significant.

significant? i think forcing them into diplomacy is significant. anything short of war is insigificant to you.

Quote:
Either we have international law or we don't. What do treaties mean if signers can violate them with impugnity?

i'll laugh again like i did before. are you really that naive? should we invade while taking them to the hague at the same time?

Quote:
Iran signed non-proliferation treaty. They broke it, there should be consequences.

i don't disagree. the consequence you refer to is war. maybe they need it. but maybe they don't.

Quote:
But to you, the consequences shouldn't be too harsh, lest the Iranians get too upset.

what's with the hyperbole?

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#715479 - 04/12/07 05:17 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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another day, another hole
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#715489 - 04/12/07 05:20 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Sound Tactic
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ROn, you think the Brit example means they will negotiate. I posit that is exactly why the Iranians created the crisis in the first place.

If you want to talk naive, I suggest you check the mirror my friend.

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#715496 - 04/12/07 05:22 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Sound Tactic
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Originally Posted By: Some Guy
another day, another hole


"DQ, I don't understand what you think piling on accomplishes. That's what SP used to do."



Oops, I meant to quote, not edit...
Last edited by Devil Queen; 04/12/07 05:46 PM.
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