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#715029 - 04/11/07 09:24 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Jokerman
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#715033 - 04/11/07 09:27 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Jokerman
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Doubledown, it is interesting to note that Reagan worked behind the scenes with the Vatican in toppling Communism in the former Soviet Union. Both Reagan and Pope John Paul II had a similar vision of Russia free of Communist oppression.
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#715089 - 04/12/07 12:29 AM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Sound Tactic
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Quote:
without him, it would Russia would likely still be the USSR.


No, they were in a downward spiral for their last 20 years. They had an economic system that was totally disfunctional and "crop failures" every year.

Reagan played a part, as did many US leaders over the years. But in the end, it was the US' overall economic vitality and the USSR's economic weakness that brought them down, not individuals.

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#715214 - 04/12/07 01:18 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Yossarian
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Yeah, the US was so "economically vital" under the Carter administration.

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#715236 - 04/12/07 01:40 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Jokerman
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is st louis being renamed "reagangrad" this year or next?

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#715253 - 04/12/07 01:54 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Hated By Some
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Yossarian's got it, it was more internal inefficiency than external pressures that brought down the Soviet Union. True, our arms build ups throughout the Cold War tied up a vast amount of Soviet resources, and led to an earlier collapse, but to say Reagan was largely responsible, that's just naive.

Did he help? Sure, just as every previous president helped, but the Soviet economy had been headed down the toilet since Brezhnev (which is why he opened detente with Nixon)

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#715262 - 04/12/07 02:00 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ron Mexico
is st louis being renamed "reagangrad" this year or next?


Seeing as how St. Louis votes about 90% dim, I doubt that's on the agenda. They're worried more about the fact that the state has had to come in and take over their failing school system.

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#715264 - 04/12/07 02:02 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Jokerman
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j, i know you are a st louis card fan. that's the only association.

but if it were up to you, it would be renamed reagangrad, right?

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#715274 - 04/12/07 02:06 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Hated By Some
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Oh, right. Reagangrad. Kind of like you're pushing to get Pennsylvania renamed "Barackistan".

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#715281 - 04/12/07 02:14 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran doubledown21
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Originally Posted By: doubledown21
Yossarian's got it, it was more internal inefficiency than external pressures that brought down the Soviet Union. True, our arms build ups throughout the Cold War tied up a vast amount of Soviet resources, and led to an earlier collapse, but to say Reagan was largely responsible, that's just naive.

Did he help? Sure, just as every previous president helped, but the Soviet economy had been headed down the toilet since Brezhnev (which is why he opened detente with Nixon)



Correct, Reagan helped, but he helped alot more than his predecessors. Here are some observations:

http://wais.stanford.edu/History/history_ussrandreagan.htm
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#715285 - 04/12/07 02:22 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: AMLFella
Correct, Reagan helped, but he helped alot more than his predecessors. Here are some observations:

http://wais.stanford.edu/History/history_ussrandreagan.htm


What a surprise.

A former visiting fellow from the Hoover Institution, a leading neoconservative and libertarian public policy think tank, has something nice to say about Ronald Reagan?

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#715293 - 04/12/07 02:27 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Imagine
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Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Originally Posted By: AMLFella
Correct, Reagan helped, but he helped alot more than his predecessors. Here are some observations:

http://wais.stanford.edu/History/history_ussrandreagan.htm


What a surprise.

A former visiting fellow from the Hoover Institution, a leading neoconservative and libertarian public policy think tank, has something nice to say about Ronald Reagan?

I mean afterall, none of what he said actually took place. He just made it up.
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#715297 - 04/12/07 02:30 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran TheManofSteel
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For goodness' sake Fella...Reagan was an honorary fellow of the school...of course they're going to agree with him...

I'm not saying Reagan didn't help...but he doesn't deserve to replace FDR on the penny, he doesn't need to be on Mt. Rushmore. Reagan is not, was not, and will never be God, and conservatives need stop viewing him as this messiah like figure.
Last edited by Devil Queen; 04/12/07 03:34 PM.
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#715305 - 04/12/07 02:38 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Imagine
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Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
he doesn't deserve to replace FDR on the penny


You're in banking, eh?

Quote:
conservatives need stop viewing him as this messiah like figure.


Why does conservative respect for Reagan bother you so much?

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#715309 - 04/12/07 02:46 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Imagine
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Quote:
Certainly, the Soviet system, in its attempt to equalize the workers, must have also had to eliminate various elements of the human spirit. Take away a man's hope for a better existence and you take away his reason for being, I think a big contributor to the demise of the USSR was the lack of spirit among the proletariat that an individual could make a difference. As such, Mr. Jones is correct that the communist leaders lost touch with the workers


Written like someone who has no real understanding of how the Soviet Union worked. I was actually agreeing with this article until this paragraph, which totally discredits the author in my opinion.

There were indeed ways to advance within the USSR, and contrary to popular opinion, workers were not all paid the same wages regardless of job. Being a good worker and citizen was well rewarded (relatively, not in terms of life in the US), as the government provided apartments and dachas free of charge.

Also, individual achievements were glorified like our pop icons. Every Soviet city had (and has) monuments to popular heros like Schevchenko, Sergei Bubkin and Tolstoy, not to mention the thousands of monuments to Geroev Truda, or the heros of labour.

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#715318 - 04/12/07 02:57 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran doubledown21
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Originally Posted By: doubledown21
Quote:
Certainly, the Soviet system, in its attempt to equalize the workers, must have also had to eliminate various elements of the human spirit. Take away a man's hope for a better existence and you take away his reason for being, I think a big contributor to the demise of the USSR was the lack of spirit among the proletariat that an individual could make a difference. As such, Mr. Jones is correct that the communist leaders lost touch with the workers


Written like someone who has no real understanding of how the Soviet Union worked. I was actually agreeing with this article until this paragraph, which totally discredits the author in my opinion.

There were indeed ways to advance within the USSR, and contrary to popular opinion, workers were not all paid the same wages regardless of job. Being a good worker and citizen was well rewarded (relatively, not in terms of life in the US), as the government provided apartments and dachas free of charge.

Also, individual achievements were glorified like our pop icons. Every Soviet city had (and has) monuments to popular heros like Schevchenko, Sergei Bubkin and Tolstoy, not to mention the thousands of monuments to Geroev Truda, or the heros of labour.


You may wantg to expand your knowledge by reading the writings of former Soviet dissident Alexander Solzenitzen. He'll detail just how "inspiring" soviet society was.
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#715325 - 04/12/07 03:01 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran TheManofSteel
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Who said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that a poor man would rather vote for someone or something that he thinks will at least give him a chance to be rich then to accept the reality that he is poor?

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#715329 - 04/12/07 03:10 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: AMLFella
Originally Posted By: doubledown21
Quote:
Certainly, the Soviet system, in its attempt to equalize the workers, must have also had to eliminate various elements of the human spirit. Take away a man's hope for a better existence and you take away his reason for being, I think a big contributor to the demise of the USSR was the lack of spirit among the proletariat that an individual could make a difference. As such, Mr. Jones is correct that the communist leaders lost touch with the workers


Written like someone who has no real understanding of how the Soviet Union worked. I was actually agreeing with this article until this paragraph, which totally discredits the author in my opinion.

There were indeed ways to advance within the USSR, and contrary to popular opinion, workers were not all paid the same wages regardless of job. Being a good worker and citizen was well rewarded (relatively, not in terms of life in the US), as the government provided apartments and dachas free of charge.

Also, individual achievements were glorified like our pop icons. Every Soviet city had (and has) monuments to popular heros like Schevchenko, Sergei Bubkin and Tolstoy, not to mention the thousands of monuments to Geroev Truda, or the heros of labour.


You may wantg to expand your knowledge by reading the writings of former Soviet dissident Alexander Solzenitzen. He'll detail just how "inspiring" soviet society was.


From my personal experiences and conversations I have had with people who live in Russia and Ukraine and were born into the Soviet system, I think I've got a better handle on the Soviet Union than anyone on this board.

I'm not saying it was a paradise, but it wasn't as bad as the American propaganda machine would have had you believe. Aside from Stalin's reign, it really wasn't the scary police state you probably think it was. The KGB didn't just come and snatch people off the street for no reason. If you were a dissenter, or journalist who published unpopular (with the party) opinions, then you may have had reason to fear, but it's really no different in Russia today. Look at how many journalists have been killed in Moscow in the last year alone.

Dissenters aside, most Russians were proud to be Soviets and viewed their nation as inherently better than the US, just as we view the US as being the superior nation (and history has vindicated us)

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#715331 - 04/12/07 03:13 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran doubledown21
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Originally Posted By: doubledown21
Originally Posted By: AMLFella
Originally Posted By: doubledown21
Quote:
Certainly, the Soviet system, in its attempt to equalize the workers, must have also had to eliminate various elements of the human spirit. Take away a man's hope for a better existence and you take away his reason for being, I think a big contributor to the demise of the USSR was the lack of spirit among the proletariat that an individual could make a difference. As such, Mr. Jones is correct that the communist leaders lost touch with the workers


Written like someone who has no real understanding of how the Soviet Union worked. I was actually agreeing with this article until this paragraph, which totally discredits the author in my opinion.

There were indeed ways to advance within the USSR, and contrary to popular opinion, workers were not all paid the same wages regardless of job. Being a good worker and citizen was well rewarded (relatively, not in terms of life in the US), as the government provided apartments and dachas free of charge.

Also, individual achievements were glorified like our pop icons. Every Soviet city had (and has) monuments to popular heros like Schevchenko, Sergei Bubkin and Tolstoy, not to mention the thousands of monuments to Geroev Truda, or the heros of labour.


You may wantg to expand your knowledge by reading the writings of former Soviet dissident Alexander Solzenitzen. He'll detail just how "inspiring" soviet society was.


From my personal experiences and conversations I have had with people who live in Russia and Ukraine and were born into the Soviet system, I think I've got a better handle on the Soviet Union than anyone on this board.

I'm not saying it was a paradise, but it wasn't as bad as the American propaganda machine would have had you believe. Aside from Stalin's reign, it really wasn't the scary police state you probably think it was. The KGB didn't just come and snatch people off the street for no reason. If you were a dissenter, or journalist who published unpopular (with the party) opinions, then you may have had reason to fear, but it's really no different in Russia today. Look at how many journalists have been killed in Moscow in the last year alone.

Dissenters aside, most Russians were proud to be Soviets and viewed their nation as inherently better than the US, just as we view the US as being the superior nation (and history has vindicated us)


And when you get past the economical differences, isn't the bolded section the heart of the difference between the two cultures. Russia has always been totalitarian. America has never been.

Neither side can really understand the other because of these vast historical differences.

Putting propoganda aside, which system would you rather live in?

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#715333 - 04/12/07 03:14 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Jokerman
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Originally Posted By: -J-
Oh, right. Reagangrad. Kind of like you're pushing to get Pennsylvania renamed "Barackistan".

in a perfect world, j...

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#715339 - 04/12/07 03:20 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran Hated By Some
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I will take the US everytime. It's interesting to live there, but you really miss the creature comforts like microwaves, dryers and hot water everyday (2 months in the summer cities are without hot water, as pipes are cleaned. Most people don't have hot water heaters and it's pumped hot from a station in the district)

Corrruption is so rampant also. It might be nice to bribe a policeman to get out of a speeding ticket, but when mafia killers are bribing detectives and getting away with murder, that's out of hand. At least we are only corrupt at the very top, with crooked lobbyists, etc.

To tell you the truth, I always took life here for granted until I went to Eastern Europe. We really do have it good here.

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#715341 - 04/12/07 03:22 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran doubledown21
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(and history has vindicated us)[/quote]

Thankfully, but now in place of totalitarian communism we have mindless radical ideologies.
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#715342 - 04/12/07 03:24 PM Re: Pelosi and Lantos may go to Iran doubledown21
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Originally Posted By: doubledown21
I will take the US everytime. It's interesting to live there, but you really miss the creature comforts like microwaves, dryers and hot water everyday (2 months in the summer cities are without hot water, as pipes are cleaned. Most people don't have hot water heaters and it's pumped hot from a station in the district)

Corrruption is so rampant also. It might be nice to bribe a policeman to get out of a speeding ticket, but when mafia killers are bribing detectives and getting away with murder, that's out of hand. At least we are only corrupt at the very top, with crooked lobbyists, etc.

To tell you the truth, I always took life here for granted until I went to Eastern Europe. We really do have it good here.



Just talk to Cuban Ameircans. They are fiercely appreciative of our liberties, having lived under and escaped from little russia...Cuba.
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