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#722410 - 04/26/07 02:58 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
Jokerman Offline
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No, Ron, I listed tactics. Policy is "Iran can't have a bomb." Tactics are what you employ to accomplish that policy. I said whatever was necessary, including force as a last resort. You said you agreed. Apparently you want to revise without admitting that it is needed. Whatever.

If I thought direct negotiations would work, I'd be in favor of trying it - but I think it's obvious that when you have an entity that cares more about destroying another state (and hastening the end of time according to their beliefs) than they do about their own survival and prosperity, then it's going to be very hard to find common ground.

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#722430 - 04/26/07 03:09 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Jokerman
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blah blah blah...
Quote:
If I thought direct negotiations would work, I'd be in favor of trying it

j, this is tactics, bro.
Quote:
I think it's obvious that when you have an entity that cares more about destroying another state...

this is an assesment of the mentality of the leadership which would affect tactics depending on what that mentality is being evaluated as.

are you done with your little semantical charade yet?

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#722461 - 04/26/07 03:37 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ron Mexico
this is tactics....are you done with your little semantical charade yet?


I agree that this is a tactic - I've never said otherwise. You said you agreed with straw on the strategy and tactics I indicated, and that I was just persecuting you, ostensibly because you were a liberal while straw was not (?).

Anyway, while not a charade, I can sense my interest in continuing my discussion with you waning. Have a nice day, Ron. Maybe you'll have the chance to accuse someone else of dual loyalties.

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#722474 - 04/26/07 03:47 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Jokerman
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Quote:
You said you agreed with straw on the strategy and tactics I indicated

bull, j. i quoted what i agreed with. i said that we differed on the tactics of execution; the basis of one month of discussion.

Quote:
and that I was just persecuting you

actions speak louder than words, bro.

Quote:
I can sense my interest in continuing my discussion with you waning.

translation: rats! i got called on my typical cooler antics and i will now bow out why covering my tracks with a smoke screen.

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#722477 - 04/26/07 03:51 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran TheManofSteel
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What I find funny is that those on the right here on BOL use the term appeasement to refer to negotiations with Iran, and use Iran's stance on Israel to justify potential use of force...I said I found it funny, b/c the Israeli PM doesn't think the use of force is needed.

Olmert: Iran nuclear issue can be resolved without arms

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#722490 - 04/26/07 04:08 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: AMLFella
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. We did not forget, hence our reminders of Chamberlain and our "lazy rhetoric" of appeasement.


And it's also possible to make the mistake of "fighting the last war" and basing your decisions on historical precedents that might not be applicable to the current situation at hand.

Beyond that, I was asking that the more conservative amongst us bring something new to the debate other than the tired retort of "You wanna NEGOTIATE with a hostile party? You Chamberlain! Talking will inevitably lead to Iran invading Poland!"

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#722507 - 04/26/07 04:20 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ron Mexico
Quote:
You said you agreed with straw on the strategy and tactics I indicated

bull, j. i quoted what i agreed with. i said that we differed on the tactics of execution; the basis of one month of discussion.


YOU DID NOT SAY THAT AT THE TIME YOU QUOTED MY STATEMENT. HERE IT IS, DIRECTLY COPIED FROM YOUR POST, AND WITH EMPHASIS ADDED:

Originally Posted By: -J-
I think Straw's of roughly the same mind I am: it is unacceptable for Iran to have the bomb, and we must do whatever it takes to avoid that, steadily increasing the pressure on the mullahs, and with force as our last resort.


IN RESPONSE, YOU SAID: "i don't see how this [the quoted statement, directly above] is incompatible with anything that i think or have said. but because it's me, it's different."

THOSE ARE TACTICS, RON. YOU SAID YOU AGREED WITH THEM; NOW THAT I'VE POINTED OUT (again) HOW INCONSISTENT YOU ARE ON THESE THREADS, YOU'VE DECIDED TO TRY TO MAKE ME THE ISSUE. JUST LIKE YOU TRIED TO MAKE STRAW THE ISSUE, RATHER THAN DEAL WITH SUBSTANCE. NO SURPRISE HERE.

Quote:
actions speak louder than words, bro.


Good grief, Ron. You're not being persecuted. You're being shown that you're wrong and inconsistent. Persecution is what Frank has to deal with, and I think he has trademarked the complaint. I thought you were a big boy.

Quote:
translation: rats! i got called on my typical cooler antics and i will now bow out why covering my tracks with a smoke screen.


Whatever, Ron.

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#722512 - 04/26/07 04:22 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Imagine
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Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
I said I found it funny, b/c the Israeli PM doesn't think the use of force is needed.


Do you even read past the headline? The first three paragraphs:

Quote:
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Wednesday that he hopes the threat of the Iranian nuclear program can be resolved without military involvement.

Speaking in Jerusalem to Jewish activists from New York, he said the threat by Iran's president to destroy the State of Israel is not something that can be tolerated. Olmert praised U.S. President George W. Bush for his efforts to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons.

"I'm hopeful that this effort can be successful without a military operation," he said.


I'm hopeful, too. But skeptical.

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#722519 - 04/26/07 04:29 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Jokerman
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Quote:
and we must do whatever it takes to avoid that

right. and your point is....? if i think we can pull it off with one course of action and straw and you think it requires another course of action, what would you call those courses of action? i say tactics. you spin. it's all good, bud.

Quote:
You're being shown that you're wrong and inconsistent

of course i am because you say so. :pats head:

Quote:
Whatever, Ron.

ron 1- J 0

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#722524 - 04/26/07 04:33 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Jokerman
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Quote:
I'm hopeful, too. But skeptical.

so some deal with the skepticism in different ways to effectuate the ultimate goal. these different ways are known as ______.

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#722538 - 04/26/07 04:55 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ron Mexico
Quote:
and we must do whatever it takes to avoid that

right. and your point is....?


My point is that you're not willing to do that. You're unwilling to countenance serious sanctions. You're content to sit here and ask straw 20 times when we invade, even when he's never said that's the only option, or even the preferable one.

Quote:
if i think we can pull it off with one course of action and straw and you think it requires another course of action, what would you call those courses of action? i say tactics. you spin. it's all good, bud.


Grow up, Ron. Everybody's already been very impressed with your patronizing, smarmy tone - try a new tack. Yes, if you have a different course of action, that would be a different tactic. However, you indicated that you had no quarrel with "whatever it takes," meaning, as someone who can read might have guessed, whatever it takes.

Quote:
ron 1- J 0


I'd say that's an accurate tally of statements that need - but pride won't allow - to be retracted.

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#722585 - 04/26/07 05:38 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Jokerman
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Quote:
My point is that you're not willing to do that.

j, i don't think that you are grasping the distinction: we must takes steps to keep them from getting the bomb. we both agree. we say that war is the last resort. we both agree. i say that some sanctions would effectively start a war. therefore, your continuum of action has, say, 3 steps while mine might have 4 or 5. those are differing tactics.

but what is REALLY going on here is that you think that you smell blood in the water with me so the actual discussion of the merits has become secondary to your vendetta against me.

Quote:
Yes, if you have a different course of action, that would be a different tactic.

finally!
Quote:
However, you indicated that you had no quarrel with "whatever it takes," meaning, as someone who can read might have guessed, whatever it takes.

and since i agreed that war might have to be an option, i'm not sure what your hang up is here. (well, i DO know but anyway)

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#722660 - 04/26/07 06:39 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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For there to be blood in the water, your position would have had to be wounded recently. It was, however, killed by blunt force trauma three weeks ago. If there's a smell, it's the rotting, bloated, bobbing corpse of your lost argument.

Ron, YOU accused ME of persecuting you because (you said) there was no distinction between your position and ours. Then, when I asked what you had been arguing about for the last month, all of the sudden there's a distinction again.

As Bob Dole would say, whatever. I have no interest in scoring political points, despite what you think. I do have an interest in convincing you that we have to take stronger action, but your partisan blinders aren't going to allow you to acknowledge what is obvious. The fact that 90% of Europe, and 50-60% of America, take this threat as unseriously as you do, while Russia and China look at it as a business opportunity, means this world has become a very dangerous place.

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#722667 - 04/26/07 06:44 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Jokerman
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j, why should i respond when you continually (and perhaps unintentionally though i doubt that highly for someone of your intelligence) misrepresent me?

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#722693 - 04/26/07 06:58 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ron Mexico
j, why should i respond when you continually (and perhaps unintentionally though i doubt that highly for someone of your intelligence) misrepresent me?

If I accepted your premise, I might bother myself for an answer. I'll even let you have the last word - I'm sure you'll think of something clever...

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#722695 - 04/26/07 06:59 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Jokerman
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last word

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#722816 - 04/26/07 09:54 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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And with that, the thread was mercifully closed.

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#723358 - 04/27/07 05:47 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran RandomName
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For what it is worth, I don't think Ron meant to come off as anti-semitic. I think he was just reminding me that I may not be unbaised on this subject.

Whether I am or not I will leave for others to decide.

I just want to make clear that I have no problem with Islam or Muslims. I have repeatedly railed on this board against posts that state or imply that all Muslims are the problem.

However, I do have a problem with a government that says it will wipe another country off the map.

Normally, we would have a problem with that too. I am not sure we should negotiate with a government that holds these policies.

I go back to the appeasement analogy, when the Chechs and Slovakians were sacrificed by the England and France.

That didn't work out too well for England and France.

Just remember that.

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#723363 - 04/27/07 05:48 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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last word ( )

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#723364 - 04/27/07 05:48 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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And with that, the thread was back open.

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#723371 - 04/27/07 05:52 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Bailey.
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Sorry, since i was discussed so much I wanted to at least present my own views.

With that, let's close the thread.

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#723383 - 04/27/07 06:00 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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#723441 - 04/27/07 06:43 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Hated By Some
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no mine

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#723535 - 04/27/07 07:45 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
For what it is worth, I don't think Ron meant to come off as anti-semitic.


I don't think he meant to, either. But I think that this type of thinking - that you might subordinate what's in America's best national security interests to what's in Israel's - is not a good road to go down.

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#723537 - 04/27/07 07:46 PM Re: It All May Have Backfired on Iran Jokerman
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And with that, the thread closed itself, threw itself into a steel vault, and got itself dropped into the Marianas Trench.

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