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#720802 - 04/24/07 04:07 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
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Okay, here it is once again:
The framers believed that it was a necessity of our free society that citizens - all of them - have the opportunity to join a militia (minutemen, anyone?) even if the militia was previously nonexistent or "dormant" in order to protect against internal and external threats to freedom.
That opportunity is useless if the citizens who join the militia can only point at the enemy with their fingers and say "bang bang, you're dead." So the second amendment gives citizens - all of them - the right to keep and bear arms so that a militia can be organized if and when necessary. There's no requirement that a militia be organized every so often to keep the right from going dormant, and no requirement that a citizen actually participate in a militia in order to retain the right. It is there for everyone all the time.
If you believe that this militia process is an anachronism, I can understand that. But anachronism or not, it's in the constitution. If it's no longer useful to us, change it the right way - do an amendment.
I'm not an NRA member and don't even own a gun, but I care about the constitution and freedom.
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#720804 - 04/24/07 04:10 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
rainman
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Okay, here it is once again:
The framers believed that it was a necessity of our free society that citizens - all of them - have the opportunity to join a militia (minutemen, anyone?) even if the militia was previously nonexistent or "dormant" in order to protect against internal and external threats to freedom.
That opportunity is useless if the citizens who join the militia can only point at the enemy with their fingers and say "bang bang, you're dead." So the second amendment gives citizens - all of them - the right to keep and bear arms so that a militia can be organized if and when necessary. There's no requirement that a militia be organized every so often to keep the right from going dormant, and no requirement that a citizen actually participate in a militia in order to retain the right. It is there for everyone all the time.
If you believe that this militia process is an anachronism, I can understand that. But anachronism or not, it's in the constitution. If it's no longer useful to us, change it the right way - do an amendment.
I'm not an NRA member and don't even own a gun, but I care about the constitution and freedom. If i did not know any better, I'd say you were a constitutional lawyer 
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#720898 - 04/24/07 05:31 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
rainman
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That opportunity is useless if the citizens who join the militia can only point at the enemy with their fingers and say "bang bang, you're dead." so that's the reality of these militias? they actually do have to BYOG? so that a militia can be organized if and when necessary... ...to protect a free society. and you think that this isn't an anachronism and that if major gun restriction were imposed it would affect this? If it's no longer useful to us, change it the right way - do an amendment. nah, i just want to pass tougher gun laws. that seems impossible now because the gun lobby has pulled the wool over the populace's eyes as to what the 2nd is actually about.
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#720968 - 04/24/07 06:03 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
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Ron, I have spent the past 11 pages arguing the merits. I even posted an article, in TODAY's paper, describing an Arizona bill, modeled after 22 other state laws, that would authorize a state militia.
The volunteers would provide their own weapons, just as militias have always been raised.
Depsite, or in spite of these meritorious arguments, you continue to insist that the 2nd amendment has no bearing to modern times without factual context.
Ask more factual questions, don't like the answers, ask other questions.
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#721039 - 04/24/07 06:35 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
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Ron, we get it. You hate guns. Fine - pass an amendment. 'Til then, shut it.
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#721070 - 04/24/07 06:51 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
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Generating 282,000,000 hits on google,"'til" is a commonly-used shortening of the more formal "until".
Ron, no one here has argued that there should be no restrictions. No one here has argued that there couldn't be improvements made to the current regulatory system to help prevent recurrances. People have argued here when you've blamed the NRA for "misleading" Americans on the plain meaning of the 2nd amendment, or when you've argued that part of the bill of rights is "dormant".
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#721088 - 04/24/07 07:01 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
Jokerman
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Generating 282,000,000 hits on google,"'til" is a commonly-used shortening of the more formal "until". so language is a democracy then? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tillPeople have argued here when you've blamed the NRA for "misleading" Americans on the plain meaning of the 2nd amendment sorry, but i feel that partial disclosure in this case is effectively non-disclosure based on what the majority of the people think the 2nd says. i've never heard the "i know the 2nd mentions militias and security of the STATE, but..." argument until this thread with some pretty sharp individuals. i'd say that that means that the public at large--especially the ones who haven't argued for more than the academic merits of the issue--is largely in the dark here. when you've argued that part of the bill of rights is "dormant". i do believe that it is quite an anachronism. that much is true. i also believe that many of these state militias have ulterior motives aligned with the NRA's view of the 2nd amendment rather than defending against intruders.
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#721109 - 04/24/07 07:11 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
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http://www.thefreedictionary.com/till"In the 18th century the spelling 'till became fashionable, as if till were a shortened form of until. Although 'till is now nonstandard, 'til is sometimes used in this way and is considered acceptable, though it is etymologically incorrect." As to the rest of your post, again, pass an amendment.
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#721126 - 04/24/07 07:23 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
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Actually, etymology is an ever moving target, so yes, it is democratic.
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#721132 - 04/24/07 07:26 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
Bailey.
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Actually, etymology is an ever moving target, so yes, it is democratic. i believe that language is a moving target, but etymology is etymology.
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#721136 - 04/24/07 07:32 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
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...but nevertheless democratic!
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#721190 - 04/24/07 08:22 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
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If i did not know any better, I'd say you were a constitutional lawyer Only in my dreams, AMLF. nah, i just want to pass tougher gun laws. that seems impossible now because the gun lobby has pulled the wool over the populace's eyes as to what the 2nd is actually about. Ron, I don't think most people are as ignorant as you seem to think they are. I think most people who are against gun control laws just don't think they're a good idea. It's not that they're misguided about what the 2nd amendment means; they would still think gun control laws are a bad idea even without the 2nd amendment. So why don't you focus your arguments on gaining acceptance of reasonable, workable, and constitutional gun control laws instead of trying to convince us that the 2nd amendment is sleeping until the next invasion of US territory. (And anyway, I loved Red Dawn! You got a problem with that????) 
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#721196 - 04/24/07 08:31 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
Bailey.
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...but nevertheless democratic! uncle!!!  (and i don't even care if i still don't agree.)
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#721217 - 04/24/07 08:48 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
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They can have my saw when they pry it from my cold, dead hands!
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#721240 - 04/24/07 09:01 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
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They can have my saw when they pry it from my cold, dead hands! i meant a Squad Automatic Weapon, dad. I don't even know what that is . . . but it sounds fun to shoot!
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#721292 - 04/24/07 11:03 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
rainman
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They can have my saw when they pry it from my cold, dead hands! i meant a Squad Automatic Weapon, dad. I don't even know what that is . . . but it sounds fun to shoot! Older ones are a big old PITA, but the newer ones are supposed to be really nice.
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#721295 - 04/24/07 11:07 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
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great, so we now have "militias" to keep out those "stinky mexicans" in order to keep the 2nd alive in all respects. we'll show you, gun haters!"
can't we just disband the police and the military? they cost an awful lot of my tax dollars. so now we have judges who decide what is constitutional based on current circumstances and not based on what the document says. We'll show those founding fathers. Can't we just dispense with the Constitution already? It sure gets in the way of what I should be allowed to do.
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#721297 - 04/24/07 11:08 PM
Re: Media Coverage of the V Tech Massacre
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rainier,
the answer is because the gun lobby fights things like the brady bill tooth and nail. that's why. i WISH they would come on board but the right to a SAW somehow should be protected.
and i loved red dawn, too! the problem is, when i watch it now, i see just how fantastic that notion really is. What about NARAL fighting the partial birth abortion ban?
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