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#746912 - 06/05/07 06:43 PM
Re: Dr. Death
MagicCity
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
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"What if it was based on academic studies that demonstrated a correlation between patients who chose assisted suicide and higher divorce rates in families left behind?"
Huh? I would not believe it.
Bottom line - Keep Your Laws Off My Body!
Drug laws - should I be allowed to ingest any drug, since it is my body?
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#746917 - 06/05/07 06:46 PM
Re: Dr. Death
straw
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,436
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I am trying to understand why those against assisted suicide are trying to establish a religion. The phrase is "establishment of religion". It does not have to be "a" particular religion. But illegality/immorality regarding murder comes from religious beliefs Not necessarily. Virtually every society, religious or non-religious, has prohibitions against murder and stealing. They certainly have a basis independent of religion since they promote a stable and safe society. That's one reason why prohibiting assisted suicide is not an establishment of religion.
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#746924 - 06/05/07 06:48 PM
Re: Dr. Death
Yossarian
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
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I am trying to understand why those against assisted suicide are trying to establish a religion. The phrase is "establishment of religion". It does not have to be "a" particular religion. But illegality/immorality regarding murder comes from religious beliefs Not necessarily. Virtually every society, religious or non-religious, has prohibitions against murder and stealing. They certainly have a basis independent of religion since they promote a stable and safe society. That's one reason why prohibiting assisted suicide is not an establishment of religion. And that is all I was trying to get to. That one can be against assisted suicide without establishing a religion. For what its worth, which socities are non-religious?
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#746925 - 06/05/07 06:48 PM
Re: Dr. Death
straw
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 854
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Drug laws - should I be allowed to ingest any drug, since it is my body? IMO - yes. Just like I think prostitution should be legal.....
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#746932 - 06/05/07 06:54 PM
Re: Dr. Death
straw
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,603
Somewhere vanilla
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Sure, suicide by cop. Or, the victim has expressed a desire for death and somone, without discussing with victim, kills them. i dont think these are the types of things that would be covered by physician-assisted suicide. also, who would be punished? the "expression" killing sounds like murder and the patient isn't doing it by their hand/directive. Yes, Schiavo disturbed me in that we were not ending treatment, but were going to starve her on the basis of what she may or may not have said. Schiavo didn't have documentation and I am not sure I agree with taking this action without clear, written instructions. a tragic case to be sure. certainly should be an impetus for people creating living wills. keeping her "alive" wasn't keeping her "living" and she had no possibility to "live" at any time in the future. technology makes many of these ethical questions so much trickier because they open up avenues which were not even though of before. Is murder (not assisted suicide as I am not saying it is murder) immoral? it is. but unlike assisted suicide, the victim isn't making the decision so her rights are never considered. in assisted suicide, the rights of the individual are being compared with the morality of the society.
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#746947 - 06/05/07 07:01 PM
Re: Dr. Death
straw
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10K Club
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Somewhere vanilla
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Ok, so you are weighing the morality vs. the individual and siding with individual. My libertarian streak likes that. i'm not an animal!I honestly don't know how I feel about assisted suicide. The difference between stopping treatment and actively doing something to end your life.
Misfeasance vs. nonfeasance. i really feel the same way. it's like abortion to me: what a horrible horrible dilemma! but yet i don't want to NOT make it a dilemma for the parties involved.
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#746955 - 06/05/07 07:04 PM
Re: Dr. Death
Hated By Some
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,912
Outside A Garage
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no, i have a problem with them forcing those beliefs on others. try to convice them? sure, but the individuals rights should be paramount here. enough to trump laws where society says "this is a bad practice".
Perish the thought of the people petitioning their elected representatives to pass laws or not that express their values. It doesn't really matter though. Obama/Clinton 08 will make all things better.
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#746956 - 06/05/07 07:05 PM
Re: Dr. Death
Hated By Some
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 854
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i really feel the same way. it's like abortion to me: what a horrible horrible dilemma! but yet i don't want to NOT make it a dilemma for the parties involved.
I dont see where the dilemma is. It seems to me that the person that wants to die and the person assisting would not be objecting (obviously).
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#746962 - 06/05/07 07:07 PM
Re: Dr. Death
anon2006
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,950
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Drug laws - should I be allowed to ingest any drug, since it is my body? IMO - yes. Just like I think prostitution should be legal..... IMO - no. Not ANY drug - but only because of the side-effects. Ingesting a drug that could cause your actions while on that drug to adversly affect others is an issue. Ingest a drug that has no harm on others - go for it!
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#746965 - 06/05/07 07:07 PM
Re: Dr. Death
Blade Scrapper
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10K Club
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Posts: 13,603
Somewhere vanilla
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Perish the thought of the people petitioning their elected representatives to pass laws or not that express their values. huh? the constitution is in place for (among other things) to protect the minority from the masses. in this example, the rights of the individual are pretty overwhelming.
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#746969 - 06/05/07 07:08 PM
Re: Dr. Death
Beige
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
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Drug laws - should I be allowed to ingest any drug, since it is my body? IMO - yes. Just like I think prostitution should be legal..... IMO - no. Not ANY drug - but only because of the side-effects. Ingesting a drug that could cause your actions while on that drug to adversly affect others is an issue. Ingest a drug that has no harm on others - go for it! I guess that makes pot ok
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#746972 - 06/05/07 07:09 PM
Re: Dr. Death
anon2006
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,488
North East
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IMO - yes.
Just like I think prostitution should be legal.....
Thinking career change?
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#746978 - 06/05/07 07:10 PM
Re: Dr. Death
anon2006
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10K Club
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Posts: 13,603
Somewhere vanilla
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I dont see where the dilemma is. It seems to me that the person that wants to die and the person assisting would not be objecting (obviously). dilemma in arbotion: keep the child and everything that goes with that or abort the child and everything that goes with that. dilemma in AS: get rid of the pain vs potentially going straight to [censored]
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#746989 - 06/05/07 07:13 PM
Re: Dr. Death
straw
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,603
Somewhere vanilla
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I guess that makes pot ok the only thing(s) that makes it NOT ok are fear of change and hypocrisy.
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#746992 - 06/05/07 07:13 PM
Re: Dr. Death
Beige
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 854
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IMO - no. Not ANY drug - but only because of the side-effects. Ingesting a drug that could cause your actions while on that drug to adversly affect others is an issue. Ingest a drug that has no harm on others - go for it!
Very good point...but how do you decide which ones are okay and which arent? If you look at it that way, alcohol could be considered a drug.
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#746995 - 06/05/07 07:16 PM
Re: Dr. Death
Hated By Some
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,912
Outside A Garage
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Perish the thought of the people petitioning their elected representatives to pass laws or not that express their values. huh? the constitution is in place for (among other things) to protect the minority from the masses. in this example, the rights of the individual are pretty overwhelming. Should the courts then declare the legislative process dormant? Who is the minority. Those who disagree?
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#746997 - 06/05/07 07:17 PM
Re: Dr. Death
straw
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,436
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And that is all I was trying to get to. That one can be against assisted suicide without establishing a religion.
For what its worth, which socities are non-religious? Or, more to the point, without establishing religion generally in violation of the First Amendment. There have been small groups of people that have banded together in non-religious societies, but if you mean at a country level, the examples that come to mind would probably be certain of the Communist countries.
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#747032 - 06/05/07 07:36 PM
Re: Dr. Death
Blade Scrapper
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,603
Somewhere vanilla
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Should the courts then declare the legislative process dormant? they can't. have you never heard of a law being declared unconstutional? those desiring to have AS. if a law was passed by a majority of the people to make AS illegal, wouldn't that by definition makes those wanting AS in the minority?
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#747067 - 06/05/07 07:54 PM
Re: Dr. Death
Hated By Some
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,912
Outside A Garage
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People in NAMBLA wish to have statutory rape laws declared unconstitutional. Does their new found status as a minority grant them constitutional relief from the tyranny of the majority? At what point do you draw the line?
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#747074 - 06/05/07 08:00 PM
Re: Dr. Death
Blade Scrapper
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,603
Somewhere vanilla
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People in NAMBLA wish to have statutory rape laws declared unconstitutional. how many parties are there in man-boy 'love'?
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#747091 - 06/05/07 08:06 PM
Re: Dr. Death
MagicCity
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 854
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"If you look at it that way, alcohol could be considered a drug."
Alcohol certainly is a drug.. That's the argument vs legalizing marijuana or not? Which is more destructive? Alcohol or marijuana? Who decides? IMO, alcohol is much more destructive.
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