How do I go about completing section A when I have a d/b/a with an EIN? The owner in this case also made a deposit to her personal account. I will put her in the 1st sec. A and own behalf, etc. The entry for the business puzzles me. Can I list the business name and ein without the owners name even thought it is a sole prop. I am afraid of a mismatch of name/TIN if I put owner in line 2 then the d/b/a name on the "d/b/a" line then put in the EIN of the business. I hope I am being clear.

It appears as in this case you would have multiple beneficiaries. The first beneficary being the person (because of the deposits to her personal account) and the DBA. Report the DBA as a DBA. (Lets call her Ms. Customer and the business Ms. Customer's Salon). Even though Ms. Customer's Salon has it's own EIN still report it as Ms. Customer DBA Ms. Customer's Salon using Ms. Customer's SSN as the TIN.

I would show benefactors = 1) individual and 2) individual dba with EIN. If there are any other joint owners on the individual account, I would list them as benefactors as well.

Transactors = conducted on own behalf.

How about just following FinCEN's guidance??

http://www.fincen.gov/Ruling_finOct3.pdf

Sorry, I thought I did.

thanks. That FinCen memo is great, but if I am going to complete a 2nd sec A for the d/b/a, my question is do I fill line 2 with the d/b/a name, since I am using the EIN, or do I fill in line 2 with the individuals name and put the d/b/a name where it belongs on line 5, and then the EIN. And what about dob and ID for the second entry, if I use indiv. name on line 2.

talk about mismatch

I just had this situation and I called FinCEN for clarification. The man at FinCEN stated that Section A on the back, place the business in line 2 with the businesses EIN. I asked the man what if the IRS sends the CTR with name not matching the EIN, he told me to send a copy of the FinCEN ruling to the IRS along with the sent back CTR. When we are examined, the examiners should go by what FinCEN says. Hope this helps.

When a sole proprietor completes an SS4 to obtain an EIN, they list their name dba trade name. The EIN will match to the first four letters of the individual's last name.

With all due respect to the "man" at FinCEN, this advice is simply nonsensical (not that the 2006 Ruling makes a lot of sense, either). There are written instructions on the form concerning how to complete the form. FinCEN has "clarified" the instructions by issuing its 2006 Ruling on filings for sole proprietorships. But nowhere has FinCEN published anything that tells you to put a business name in line 2 for a sole proprietorship. The system works with the individual's name in items 2, 3 and 4, and the d/b/a name in item 5.

This telephone conversation with a well-meaning individual at FinCEN won't hold water with your examiner if he or she decided to pick nits on your sole proprietorship filings. Unless you get it in writing, I suggest it's worthless.

As for going by "what FinCEN says," a single individual working at FinCEN cannot and does not speak officially for the agency. When the agency opines officially, it does so in writing. And when they publish in writing what you got over the telephone, I will be among the first to change my advice.

OK let's say I fill in ln 2 w/indiv name, and fill out the remaining items, d/b/a EIN etc, occup/business etc. Do I list dob and ID again like on the front of the CTR? If the IRS matches EIN to last name, then I probably should.

When I complete these forms, I complete the info on the sole proprietor as a PERSON (name, home address, SSN, owner/type of business, DOB, DL) and then I list the proprietor as a BUSINESS (name dba trade name, business address, EIN if applicable otherwise SSN, type of business, N/A for ID). It does not matter whether you list the person or the business on the front of the CTR, there is no significance to the order they are shown as benefactors on the form.

If the sole proprietor conducted one or more of the transactions involved, I check "conducted on own behalf".

Ruling FIN-2006-R003 is the ruling that the "FinCEN man" is referring to. In the 2nd paragraph of the ruling, it states that "One section A should be completed for the owner (with the owner's name, address, Social Security Number, or Individual Tax Identification Number), and a separate Section A should be completed on the sole proprietorship (the business' name, Doing Business As, business address, and Employer Identification Number)." I got clarification from the "man" on this statement. What does this mean exactly then?

Just as I explained above, think of the sole proprietor as two different persons:
1) identify him as an individual person
2) identify him as a business person

List one on the front of the CTR in Section A and one on the back of the CTR in Section A.

One with just his name (without the DBA) and all of his personal information, another one with his name in line 2 the business name in line 5 with the EIN and the business address? That makes a little more sense to me than putting the business name in line 2 on one of them with the business information. This ruling is just a little confusing. Thanks for any help.

I am going to apologize for the tone in my earlier post, because I have to admit I had not realized the significance of those two words "business' name" in the ruling where it asks for the second Section A entry. I have read the Ruling several times, and always equated "business' name" with "sole proprietor's name" without giving it a second thought.

I won't back off on my warning not to take oral advice from FinCEN staffers as binding on the agency, however.

I am troubled by the use of the phrase "business' name" in the FinCEN document, because it leaves the door open for ambiguity. Legally, the business's name is the sole proprietor's name (they are one and the same), and use of the proprietor's name will ensure a match to the business's EIN (which the IRS issues in the name of the sole proprietor, not in the tradestyle or fictitious name). But I can believe that FinCEN meant for you to insert the fictitious name in item 2 as if it were an actual entity with that name, just because that would make about as much sense as the rest of the Ruling.

What I can say without equivocation is that I have a great appreciation for all of you who are struggling with this question.

I have rec'd CTRs back form the IRS pertaining to this. I am trying to correct them. I contacted the IRS and "they " said to place the individuals name in line 2, the EIN in line 6, the buisiness name in line 5, and the business address, along with the individuals info. in lines 8, 13, & 14. I sent the CTRs back to the IRS in the fashion they told me. However, I started reading on BOL and researched a little further. That is where I stumbled upon this ruling. I am trying to get the CTRs fixed the way they are suppose to be. I have a call into the FDIC to ask how they look upon this.

Looks like the only difference then with respect to the entries for sec A front and back are

1)add "d/b/a" name in line 5

2) EIN replaces SSN

3) occupation changes to business or profession i.e. restaurant, toy store.


Everything else the same, including ID line 14.

This would make sense in one way because we are putting indiv. name in line 2. It would not make sense another way because we are actually describing the d/b/a. Better safe and put in ID. There is nothing that anyone can say.

Of course if sole prop were using SSN for Tax Id then there would only be one Sec A entry.

I think we can agree on that.

One other thing. We have gotten CTRs returned because the DOB was not in both Section A's (business and individual). We had been filing the business section A without the individual DOB (seemed like commone sense to me) but they are being returned wanting the DOB which is the same a the individual DOB. Go figure.

I just spoke with FinCEN...probably the same guy that the original poster spoke to. He said that even if the sole prop is using the individual's SSN, we have to enter it a second time. I don't know about anyone else, but using the same SSN in both section A's won't work in my software. It gives me error messages and just shuts down.
GRRRRRR!

I know that FinCEN struggles with its mission on a day-to-day basis. And I know that there are eyes at FinCEN that regularly read the posts in this forum. I simply wish that someone at FinCEN could realize the problems that exist "in the field" because of this ruling. Here are some of them:

• CTR-prep software that's designed to refuse duplicate TIN entries (see post just above), most likely because it always was an unwritten understanding that you never listed the same person twice on a single CTR.
• Software that expects date of birth and ID source entries when items 2 - 4 are completed, even when it's repeated from the Section A entry on the front of the form.
• Vague instructions on how to complete the second entry (the one on the business). There is confusion on how to complete items 2 - 4 for this entry.
• The need to complete the business entry when there's no separate business address and no EIN. There's no logical reason to require the second entry in such a case, but the ruling doesn't acknowledge that fact.