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#79031 - 05/09/03 09:29 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 18,763
Central City, NE
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Quote:
If the government wants to take an official stance, they can be sure to tick a whole lot of people off either way.
They already did take an official stance on this. Read the White House link I provided.
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#79033 - 05/09/03 10:45 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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New Poster
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 19
California
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First of all, thanks to everyone who took the time to read and respond to my posting. It's a thorny issue. Our bank had a big HMDA 2004 Task Force meeting today, in which we discussed the issue in some depth. I believe that my bank will do very well from a compliance standpoint, in adhering to all the new requirements, but that we all face an equally important HUMAN challenge with the new race/ethnicity issue. There is a rapidly-growing Hispanic home-owner population in our lending area, and we are very sensitive to the need to treat everyone with the dignity and respect they deserve. We're considering engaging a consultant to assist us with devising the training, role-playing, scripting, etc. to get us where we want to be.
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#79034 - 05/10/03 08:41 AM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,272
Where the heart is
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I, for one, am wondering why there are only two ethnicities in the world. Either your Hispanic/Latino or you're not. I simply find that amazing. As for the questions of race, quite frankly our own government has been one of the biggest offenders in deciding who is "white" and who is not. I watched an interesting program on PBS on this very topic. Interesting to find out that at one point, Italians and Poles were not considered "white." Unfortunately, our own government was pretty heavy handed in many discriminatory policies. That's what makes this heavy handed attempt at non-discrimination all the more frustrating. PBS: Race - the Power of Illusion
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#79036 - 05/11/03 06:08 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Power Poster
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,708
Las Vegas Nevada
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Let me throw in a couple more items to think about. If you have a population of hispanic origin, or polish, or german, or irish, or any other NATIONALITY, addressing the credit needs is not a racial issue, its a marketing issue. Marketing to a NATIONALITY sucessfully means being sensitive to the language and culture of that NATIONALITY. Its is easy to mix up race, ethnicity and nationality issues. As long as you accept a population of Hispanic or Latino origin as a racial issue you are off the mark.
As far as what do I mark as a race. You can call yourself anything you want. This is not a test for accuracy and does not call for an audit procedure. If a person of color marks themselves as white accept it. As bankers we are prone to generate absolutes, however this is a process of generalities which requires looking at a very big picture instead of an application on the desk. It will all seem pointless unless an understanding of the politics and goals now in play are understood.
Quote:
I, for one, am wondering why there are only two ethnicities in the world. Either your Hispanic/Latino or you're not.
Just my speculation but the Hispanic population is a large part of many communities. There is a tendency for this population to cluster in a barrio. The income levels of the population is low which usually makes the census tract income classification of the barrio Low. Same applies to the black population, but they are a Race and are analized as a Race. The Hispanic population has many of the same minority characteristics as the black community, but are not segmented as a Race, the Hispanic or Latino creates a minority category which does allow for their inclusion in Fair Lending analysis.
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#79037 - 05/11/03 06:35 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 21,293
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Nothing to do with HMDA itself, but if you read about genetics and DNA, there really are no races. Races are divisions created by people. We are really divided by cultures, which are really reflect by ethnicity. Many of the groups now included in white (that were not originally viewed as white, which was actually just WASP) have lost much of their ethnicity because they had to suppress much of their culture to assimilate so they could get jobs.
However, because people treat people in certain ways due to opinions, beliefs, etc., this kind of tracking is something we must do to attempt to detect patterns etc.
People can check off whatever they want that reflects how they view themselves, as best they can reflect it with the choices presented. And we will track it; that is all I can do. It may be that this gets changed again if it creates a public outcry. So make your systems flexible. Maybe table driven so changes can be made easily!
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#79038 - 05/12/03 02:29 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,351
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Quote:
Unfortunately, our own government was pretty heavy handed in many discriminatory policies. That's what makes this heavy handed attempt at non-discrimination all the more frustrating.
Ditto. I watched a program regarding housing, the availability of it, appraisals of it, etc. After WWII when home ownership became an easier reality for all Americans, property value was determined based on whether or not the neighborhood was a "white" neighborhood. The whiter the neighborhood, the higher the property value. Yes, this was written in federal law!! If even one or two black families moved into the neighborhood, the property value declined! This was called "blockbusting". And the predominently black neighborhoods were designated on city maps with red (redlining??). So white peoples' houses accrued in value and black (and other races/ethnicties) peoples' houses declined in value. This is why it was easier for white people to take out a second mortgage to send kids to college, etc. President Johnson signed the bill that "wrote the language out" of the law. But the impacts were and are far reaching. So basically, the government is cleaning up it's own mess with HMDA, ECOA, FHA, etc, to make sure we (BANKS) don't descriminate...... 
Whatever...... 
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#79039 - 05/12/03 03:33 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 18,763
Central City, NE
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Quote:
Quote:
Don, how will a lender know what is the "first code" entered by an applicant? The applicant might mark 2 or more race categories by marking boxes. Which is first, second, etc.?
The first race code is what ever is entered in the first field of HMDA data collection software.
Let me try again: How will a banker know which if the first race code? If the applicant is 75% asian and 25% black and they mark these two race boxes, how will the HMDA Software input person know to put asian before black. What if the black is entered as race #1 and asian is entered as race #2?
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#79040 - 05/12/03 03:45 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Power Poster
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,608
Near the Land of Enchantment
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Those were my thoughts as well, David. And if Don's prediction of the analysis processes is correct, wouldn't the banking community be likely to respond by listing the more 'minority' one first? That will definitely make for some interesting statistics!
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#79041 - 05/12/03 04:05 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Power Poster
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,708
Las Vegas Nevada
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It doesn't matter what percentage of a race a person is. There is no measurement of the percentage.
The data entry person will just enter the codes as marked on the LAR Form. If a person marks Black in Box 1 and Asian in box 2 then that is how the data will be entered.
My speculation on the analysis is that with 7 race codes for borrower and 7 for the co-borrower plus 4 ethnicity codes for each. There will be to many combibations of race and ethnicity codes to make any sense out of that many analysis reports.
I see it as analysis by "Race alone" and "Race of more than one race".
I.E. Black Alone (no other race indicated) Black, More that one Race ( Black checked in Box 1 and other race codes entered.
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#79042 - 05/12/03 04:49 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 215
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Among those "in the know", caucasian is a language, not a race. Much of the misuse traces to Hitler's twisted agenda. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=race
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#79043 - 05/12/03 04:58 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 18,763
Central City, NE
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Quote:
The data entry person will just enter the codes as marked on the LAR Form. If a person marks Black in Box 1 and Asian in box 2 then that is how the data will be entered.
But I don't see a Box 1 and a Box 2 on the GMI collection form. There are just race boxes, in no order. I agree with Lestie G. Banks will start listing first those minorities to which they don't have many loans.
I understand what you are saying about the analysis, but I think this is a confusing area.
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#79044 - 05/12/03 05:28 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 215
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By asking a mortgage applicant about his/her race and ethnicity, we are effectively asking, "If someone were to hate you for some portion of your ancestry, which is the portion that is most likely"?
Someone like Will Rogers would have to decide, should he "pass for white" - hoping to obtain a favorable mortgage - or defiantly proclaim his indigenous heritage.
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#79045 - 05/12/03 05:29 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Power Poster
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,708
Las Vegas Nevada
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David,
I am looking at a proposed HMDA LAR form, and yes it will be confusing, and yes it does apperar to be open to some manipulation. One thing to keep in mind is that a very small percentage of the population indicated more than one race in the census data, so it may not be as big a problem as we think.
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#79046 - 05/12/03 05:57 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,353
Anchorage Alaska
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Quote:
This is more information than was asked for but, in the 2000 census the count was 75,830,000 Hispanics or Latino's of any race. This is 1.7% of the total US population.
This drives me nuts. What is the reflection on data collection if we choose to acknowledge either "Hispanic or Latino" (1.7% of the population) or not Hispanic or Latino?
While the theory that this group clusters and is underserved sounds reasonable, this is 1.7% of the population in the US. There are other groups who cluster and are underserved in that 98.3% remaining balance who probably should be accounted for as well.
Want to start or increase bias in our country? Ask if you're "Hispanic or Latino or Not Hispanic or Latino" the balance of the US isn't important....
All populations are important to serve, and yes, the Hispanic and Latino populations are among those, but is it more important to monitor one group than another group with equal disadvantage?
I'm not saying, "Count the Irish" but sheesh, lets be a little more broad?
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#79047 - 05/12/03 06:22 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 18,763
Central City, NE
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Quote:
By asking a mortgage applicant about his/her race and ethnicity, we are effectively asking, "If someone were to hate you for some portion of your ancestry, which is the portion that is most likely"?
Someone like Will Rogers would have to decide, should he "pass for white" in hopes that he would help obtain a favorable mortgage, or defiantly proclaim his indigenous heritage.
I don't agree with you Carl. I also think that this string has gotten off the path. I'm not saying that the new GMI logic is perfect, but we've taken a turn on this string. Now we seem to be fighting the government for it's attempts to stop discrimination.
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#79048 - 05/12/03 06:25 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 83,393
Galveston, TX
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I think I tried to correct that. Don meant that to be 17% and it is growing rapidly. I sure will be glad when no matter what color or race or ethnic background we are, we will all be minorities - just a giant mixing pot. That way maybe we can all just get along. Until then, I think the latest moves on the government data catagories will pretty much make analysis for fair lending means meaningless.
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#79049 - 05/12/03 06:31 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,353
Anchorage Alaska
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I missed that  but still 83% are not of value to the government monitoring? You're right David, we're off line  But if this is where the conversations goes among the bankers, we're going to have a heck of a time getting this across to consumers. I'm about at a point of shrugging my shoulders and suggesting folks pick a box...any box....
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CRA Rating is in...Oh who cares...I'm home with the baby.
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#79050 - 05/12/03 07:09 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,269
Far from Calif
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I agree about the off-path remark David. Again, this comes back to...how will we train our front-line staff on explaining these categories when applicants ask, "Well, what I should I mark here?" Will it be best to just say, "Well, I cannot answer that for you. You will need to go to the government to answer that. In the meantime, just mark whatever you want" ????? That is the frustrating part. Just makes the information and analysis more unreliable, but we don't have a choice. At least before, they had an "other" box to choose from that generally seemed to appease the applicants who did not feel they fell into one of the categories.
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#79051 - 05/12/03 07:26 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Power Poster
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,708
Las Vegas Nevada
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Yes "Other" has ben deleted as a Race selection. The Race codes in 2004 will be.
1=American Indian or Alaska Native
2=Asian
3=Black or African American
4=Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
5=White
6=Information Not Provided by Applicant in Mail,Internet or telephone Application
7=Not Applicable
The following is from the HMDA 2004 file specification instructions
At least one code selection must be made in the applicant and co-applicant race categories. However, since an applicant and a co-applicant may select more than one race designation on an application and the institution is to report all the codes corresponding to the applicant and co-applicant’s selections, an application or loan could contain codes 1 through 5 for each individual.
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#79052 - 05/14/03 02:19 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,766
Turnpike Exit 10
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Frivolity, I was reviewing loan files for HMDA accuracy, and one applicant checked off "other" and wrote in "Italian". ???? Huh?
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#79054 - 05/14/03 02:38 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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100 Club
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 204
Arkansas
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Quote:
Frivolity, I was reviewing loan files for HMDA accuracy, and one applicant checked
off "other" and wrote in "Italian". ???? Huh?
I reviewed a file where an applicant checked other and wrote in caucasian. I guess "white" confused him.
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#79055 - 05/14/03 03:44 PM
Re: HMDA : Race vs. ethnicity
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,454
metsuretsu
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Quote:
I reviewed a file where an applicant checked other and wrote in caucasian. I guess "white" confused him.
It may be a matter of preference or origin. Many people will quickly tell you that if you need to classify them, they are "black" not "African American".
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