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#821292 - 09/22/07 07:57 PM The Eternal Value of Privacy
buggs Offline
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happygilmore is known around here for supporting government intrusion of our privacy on the basis of protecting citizens from terrorists and criminals. In fact, I've been known to refer to him as "Mr. I Have Nothing to Hide."

Here is an article (that I wish I had written) that explains the danger behind thinking that privacy is about hiding things. That idea is a dangerous concept that can easily lead to abuse of power (tyranny), the revocation of liberty (tyranny), but more disconcerting, the loss of our dignity as human beings.

The author of this short article does a great job of explaining (much better than I can) why the "I have nothing to hide" approach to privacy is something that should be avoided. (I especially like the quote from Cardinal Richelieu.)

The author's point is that, "Privacy is an inherent human right, and a requirement for maintaining the human condition with dignity and respect." To this, I say, "Amen."

The Eternal Value of Privacy @ wired.com

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#821302 - 09/23/07 05:23 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy buggs
CRAatBOK Offline

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Further South than I wanna be.
THanks Bugs
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#821303 - 09/23/07 06:10 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy buggs
Yossarian Offline
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Great post, Bugs.

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#821327 - 09/23/07 11:53 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy Yossarian
Simply Sheldon Offline
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Being someone who appreciates my privacy and understands a real true value to it, this was a great read.

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#821420 - 09/24/07 02:11 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy Simply Sheldon
buggs Offline
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I think everyone should read this article. Glad you all liked it.

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#821438 - 09/24/07 02:22 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy buggs
kms Offline
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kms
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God Bless America
Good article, decent resume, didn't change my opinion on the subject.
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#821444 - 09/24/07 02:26 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy kms
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
sounds great in a perfect world...which we don't live in.
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#821446 - 09/24/07 02:30 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy HappyGilmore
Ops Offline
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Thanks for the article, Bugs.

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#821449 - 09/24/07 02:31 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy HappyGilmore
Jokerman Offline
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Quote:
How many of us have paused during conversation in the past four-and-a-half years, suddenly aware that we might be eavesdropped on?


Other than by an employer? My guess is that this number is roughly equal to the number of individuals suffering from delusional paranoia, plus those engaged in terror plots.

I would point out that I do not agree that it's ok to spy on every American just because those with nothing to hide should not object. But I don't believe paranoia about it is appropriate, either.

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#821451 - 09/24/07 02:33 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy Jokerman
Ops Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom Thumb
Quote:
How many of us have paused during conversation in the past four-and-a-half years, suddenly aware that we might be eavesdropped on?


Other than by an employer? My guess is that this number is roughly equal to the number of individuals suffering from delusional paranoia, plus those engaged in terror plots.


I've wondered.... I wouldn't say out of paranoia.. more out of curiousity.
Last edited by Ops; 09/24/07 02:35 PM.
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#821457 - 09/24/07 02:36 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy buggs
°X° Offline
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BS, Bugs. No one is intruding on citizens - according to the article, you are probably doing a lot of private stuff all the time, God knows what - just how have you been impacted by any new law that is targeting those who want to kill us?

We are not looking for people that have stuff to hide, we are looking for people that want to kill us. Wake up or lose your head.

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#821467 - 09/24/07 02:53 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy °X°
kms Offline
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I am still and probably always will be a firm believer in the if you arent doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about. I believe that the data will be used for the right puporses.

When I was in the service, my phone was tapped from time to time, depending on the sensitivity of projects I was working on. It didn't bother me to know someone was listening, because I wasn't doing anything wrong. Sometimes when my ex calls the line is tapped, again doesn't bother me because I am not doing anything wrong.

I know there are innocent people convicted of crimes from time to time, but for the most part, our justice system works and I don't fear being arrested and convicted of something I didn't do.
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#822397 - 09/25/07 03:31 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy °X°
buggs Offline
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Originally Posted By: _X_
We are not looking for people that have stuff to hide, we are looking for people that want to kill us. Wake up or lose your head.

_X_, it's good to hear from you and see that your brain is still alive. (You need to pull your head out of the jokes every once in a while, Doc.)

I'm not going to comment on your reply. I'll let the article speak for itself since I can't improve upon it.

If you don't get it, then you just don't get it.

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#822416 - 09/25/07 03:43 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy kms
buggs Offline
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Originally Posted By: kms
I am still and probably always will be a firm believer in the if you arent doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about. I believe that the data will be used for the right puporses.

That's not the point. The point is that the "watching" is an intrusion that will color *everything* you do (or don't do) -- not just the things you want to hide. Is that *really* what you want?

I'm glad you believe the data will be used for the right purposes. But we're not all sweet, honest, and trustworthy people. You can be sure that putting this type of power in the hands of some people is a mistake. And the problem is that you never know who is the wrong person to give this power. Some people are held only in check by the fact that they don't have the power. Give them the power, and they will abuse it.

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#822425 - 09/25/07 03:46 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy buggs
Simply Sheldon Offline
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It's like being followed by a cop even though you know you're not breaking any traffic laws.

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#822428 - 09/25/07 03:49 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy buggs
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
Bugs - I read the testimony from the USAG that said it would not be used illegally or abused if granted. Using the BBToIT, I must belive that he is honest and forthright in this statement, and that I - and you - have nothing to fear.

(as a refresher, BBToIT is the Bugs Bunny Theory of Internet Truthfulness, whereby everything you read on the internet is to be taken as gospel truth)
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#822444 - 09/25/07 03:58 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy buggs
kms Offline
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Bugs, You just don't get it. No one would be watching me! I am not a terorist, I don't consort with them, never had never will. There are others that would come under scrutiny but not me. I have nothing to worry about.
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#822445 - 09/25/07 03:59 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy HappyGilmore
buggs Offline
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Originally Posted By: HappyGilmore
Bugs - I read the testimony from the USAG that said it would not be used illegally or abused if granted. Using the BBToIT, I must belive that he is honest and forthright in this statement, and that I - and you - have nothing to fear.

(as a refresher, BBToIT is the Bugs Bunny Theory of Internet Truthfulness, whereby everything you read on the internet is to be taken as gospel truth)

Thanks, happy, you're a real smart guy, are you not?

P.S. Your twisting of my words is starting to wear a little thin and the embarrassment of watching your immaturity show through is getting a little painful to observe. It's time to grow up a little more, Doc.

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#822446 - 09/25/07 04:00 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy kms
buggs Offline
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Originally Posted By: kms
Bugs, You just don't get it. No one would be watching me! I am not a terorist, I don't consort with them, never had never will. There are others that would come under scrutiny but not me. I have nothing to worry about.

You don't get it do you? They're watching everybody not just the folks on their lists.

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#822450 - 09/25/07 04:01 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy buggs
kms Offline
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God Bless America
BS
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#822460 - 09/25/07 04:11 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy buggs
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
Quote:
you don't get it do you? They're watching everybody not just the folks on their lists.


do you really believe this? your paranoia is starting to wear thin...and your double standard (calling me Mr IHNTH) but telling me I can't rehash your statements (BBToIT) is quite interesting...
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#822468 - 09/25/07 04:14 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy HappyGilmore
kms Offline
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Have you thought of the resources that would take bugs. Good god we didn't have theresources to stop 9/11 and you think they are watching everyone. Come on now you are smarter than that, or so I thought.
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#822470 - 09/25/07 04:15 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy kms
buggs Offline
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Originally Posted By: kms
BS

Simply label it, dismiss it, and move on. Good strategy!

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#822475 - 09/25/07 04:19 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy buggs
kms Offline
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Sorry I know better than you, and I was calling it like I see it.
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#822477 - 09/25/07 04:20 PM Re: The Eternal Value of Privacy HappyGilmore
buggs Offline
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Originally Posted By: HappyGilmore
Quote:
you don't get it do you? They're watching everybody not just the folks on their lists.


do you really believe this? your paranoia is starting to wear thin...and your double standard (calling me Mr IHNTH) but telling me I can't rehash your statements (BBToIT) is quite interesting...

Good point. I'll stop calling you Mr. IHNTH.

P.S. Of course I believe it. Consider the monitoring of email messages or wire transfers for a moment. How do you think they can monitor without monitoring everyone? What would be the point in monitoring the traffic if they couldn't didn't watch everyone?

Think of it like a police speed trap on a highway. In general, the cop points his radar gun at *everyone* hoping to catch someone going fast enough to make a stop worthwhile.

Get it?
Last edited by Bugs Bunny; 09/25/07 04:24 PM.
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