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#864138 - 11/30/07 07:25 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" B_F
The Incredible ComplyGuy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Originally Posted By: HappyGilmore
Quote:
There would have to be a complete reorganization of living quarters, how basic training or boot camp is done, it would be a logistic nightmare. If you put all gay men in a squad, then it is like mixing straight guys and girl


why would you need seperate quarters for gay and straight? Gay men aren't attracted to straight men, any more than straight men are attracted to gays (with minor exceptions on both parts). Not all homosexuals are "flaming" - let's dispel that myth.


No, but frankly, most straight men don't want to be showering with gay men any more than straight women want to be showering with straight men.

If you think gay men aren't attracted to men, period, you're crazy. That's like saying straight men aren't attracted to gay women. Fact is, YOU NEVER KNOW.


There's a difference between being attracted to someone and acting on it. I thought that discipline is one of the biggest sources of pride for the military. Discipline translates into self-control. If a person cannot control their sexual urges at the base, how can we expect them to control themselves properly on the battlefield (e.g., not shoot someone recklessly)?

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#864141 - 11/30/07 07:27 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" The Incredible ComplyGuy
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Sorry, TICG, what did you say? I was still boggled by BF speaking authoritatively on what both straight and gay men liked. Who knew? (Although it did remind me of a piece of graffiti that, if related here, would get the thread locked/deleted.)

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#864144 - 11/30/07 07:29 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" Hrothgar Geiger
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Originally Posted By: AML-Barbarian
(Although it did remind me of a piece of graffiti that, if related here, would get the thread locked/deleted.)


Can you send a PM?
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#864154 - 11/30/07 07:32 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" The Incredible ComplyGuy
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Originally Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy
Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Originally Posted By: HappyGilmore
Quote:
There would have to be a complete reorganization of living quarters, how basic training or boot camp is done, it would be a logistic nightmare. If you put all gay men in a squad, then it is like mixing straight guys and girl


why would you need seperate quarters for gay and straight? Gay men aren't attracted to straight men, any more than straight men are attracted to gays (with minor exceptions on both parts). Not all homosexuals are "flaming" - let's dispel that myth.


No, but frankly, most straight men don't want to be showering with gay men any more than straight women want to be showering with straight men.

If you think gay men aren't attracted to men, period, you're crazy. That's like saying straight men aren't attracted to gay women. Fact is, YOU NEVER KNOW.


There's a difference between being attracted to someone and acting on it. I thought that discipline is one of the biggest sources of pride for the military. Discipline translates into self-control. If a person cannot control their sexual urges at the base, how can we expect them to control themselves properly on the battlefield (e.g., not shoot someone recklessly)?


So we should force unisex showers on everyone in the military?

It's not about whether the person will act on it, it's about whether the people will feel as if they are being looked at as an object of sexual desire. That's why we don't force men and women to shower together. It's no different than forcing a straight man (or woman) to shower with an openly gay man or woman.

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#864178 - 11/30/07 07:42 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" B_F
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I am talking about basic training/boot camp. Most don't have that discipline until it is all done and beat into them. Truthfully, I think the don't ask don't tell works, with some exceptions. I know there are people that claim to be gay to get out becuase they don't like it and others that are outed by someone angry with them. i think that as long as the person does not out themselves then there are no problems with this system. Other than there is no way to prove when someone is lying to get out of the military.
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#864182 - 11/30/07 07:46 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" B_F
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Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan

It's not about whether the person will act on it, it's about whether the people will feel as if they are being looked at as an object of sexual desire.


Someone certainly thinks highly of themselves.

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#864197 - 11/30/07 08:00 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" Hrothgar Geiger
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Didn't the armed services once argue that blacks needed to be segregated to maintain unit cohesiveness?

And now the services probably have the best integration record in the US.

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#864223 - 11/30/07 08:18 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" straw
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They did. Truman established a commission in 1945 to study how to best desegregate the military. In July of 1948 he signed an executive order (9981) that said, in part
Quote:
It is hereby declared to be the policy of the President that there shall be equality of treatment and opportunity for all persons in the armed services without regard to race, color, religion or national origin. This policy shall be put into effect as rapidly as possible, having due regard to the time required to effectuate any necessary changes without impairing efficiency or morale.

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#864239 - 11/30/07 08:30 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" B_F
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Quote:
If you think gay men aren't attracted to men, period, you're crazy. That's like saying straight men aren't attracted to gay women. Fact is, YOU NEVER KNOW.


but you do?
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#864325 - 11/30/07 09:38 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" HappyGilmore
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Originally Posted By: HappyGilmore
Quote:
If you think gay men aren't attracted to men, period, you're crazy. That's like saying straight men aren't attracted to gay women. Fact is, YOU NEVER KNOW.


but you do?


Considering I have been asked out by a gay man? Yes, I do.

As for thinking highly of MYSELF, Barbara, I think highly of our men in uniform, not myself.

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#864335 - 11/30/07 09:44 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" B_F
The Incredible ComplyGuy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Originally Posted By: HappyGilmore
Quote:
If you think gay men aren't attracted to men, period, you're crazy. That's like saying straight men aren't attracted to gay women. Fact is, YOU NEVER KNOW.


but you do?


Considering I have been asked out by a gay man? Yes, I do.

As for thinking highly of MYSELF, Barbara, I think highly of our men in uniform, not myself.


Did he take you somewhere nice?

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#864355 - 11/30/07 09:54 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" B_F
straw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Originally Posted By: HappyGilmore
Quote:
If you think gay men aren't attracted to men, period, you're crazy. That's like saying straight men aren't attracted to gay women. Fact is, YOU NEVER KNOW.


but you do?


Considering I have been asked out by a gay man? Yes, I do.

As for thinking highly of MYSELF, Barbara, I think highly of our men in uniform, not myself.


Have you been asked out by straight women?

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#864367 - 11/30/07 09:58 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
Didn't the armed services once argue that blacks needed to be segregated to maintain unit cohesiveness?

And now the services probably have the best integration record in the US.


Now, don't have a snit, straw - you and you bud group will probably get your way some day, just not today.

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#864405 - 11/30/07 10:20 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" X
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
Quote:
Considering I have been asked out by a gay man? Yes, I do.


so you base your answer on one isolated incident? or is it not isolated and you need to quit shopping at Banana Republic...

But seriously, I work with a couple of gay people (this is New Orleans, after all) and I've had this discussion with them in the past. A gay man may find another man attractive, but will only approach him "if they get the vibe from that person that they are gay as well and/or interested. It is rare that a gay man asks a straight man out, it just doesn't happen that often." (the infamous gaydar at work here)

So, I stand by my original statement that while it may occur, it is not frequent enough to warrant new bunks, showers, training, etc.
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#864506 - 11/30/07 11:42 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" B_F
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Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan

As for thinking highly of MYSELF, Barbara, I think highly of our men in uniform, not myself.

Apparently not highly enough to think that they conduct themselves like mature adults, or that they can rise above petty differences to serve a greater cause, Michelle.

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#864516 - 11/30/07 11:51 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" kms
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Originally Posted By: kms
I am talking about basic training/boot camp. Most don't have that discipline until it is all done and beat into them. Truthfully, I think the don't ask don't tell works, with some exceptions. I know there are people that claim to be gay to get out becuase they don't like it and others that are outed by someone angry with them. i think that as long as the person does not out themselves then there are no problems with this system. Other than there is no way to prove when someone is lying to get out of the military.


So you are saying if I am gay and willing to sign up, fight for my country, possibly dying in the process that is ok but I do not have the freedom to be who I am? I agree that anyone in the military should show self control and I also agree that the majority of Gays are not after everyone of the same sex. However, I do not believe someone should have to hide their sexuality as long as they are doing the job they were hired to do.
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#864573 - 12/01/07 03:38 AM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" HappyGilmore
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Originally Posted By: HappyGilmore
Regardless of your thoughts on homosexuality, isn't it time for the government to practice what it preaches in regards to hiring?


What is the purpose of the US military?

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#864606 - 12/01/07 05:51 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" Jokerman
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Originally Posted By: Tom Thumb
Originally Posted By: HappyGilmore
Regardless of your thoughts on homosexuality, isn't it time for the government to practice what it preaches in regards to hiring?


What is the purpose of the US military?


Basically it is right here in the Oath of Enlistment:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

1. Support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Pretty self explanatory, if you are an enemy and your try to do harm against the United States, the military will fight you.

2. that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same
No matter what your personal feelings are of the United States, the Government or the Constitution, you will support it. Trust me, when Clinton was elected, the majority of the military members did not like or respect him. However, he was still supported and backed by the military. Those who couldn't either got out or kicked out.

3. and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. As stated above, no matter what you think of your superior, he/she gives and order, it is followed (most of the time no questions asked). I have served under both male and female Commanders, some I liked, some I wouldn't urinate on if they were on fire. However, when told to do something, I did it, as has most of the military members before me, with me and after me.

4. So help me God. If anything that shows how the military is different than the rest of the population, all have to swear (or affirm) before God. This does not matter what your religous preferences are. I have seem devout atheist affirm this, I have seen a Sailor who followed the Wiccan religon and he stated the same. No how many jobs in the civilian poplution, have to do this. I can't think of any, unless it is a Government type of position and then it is some type of elected or appointed position.

To reply to Happy's quote, there is pretty much some type of discrination in every civilian job. One thing to remember, it is what the qualifications the employer is seeking. As long as those qualifications don't infringe on Race, Sex, Religon, etc... They are pretty much safe. A lot of employers may even discriminate, but it is unspoken and unwritten. Have you ever seen a Hooter's waiter in short orange shorts and a tight top. Nope, but they got sued (I can't remember if Hooters won or not).

Just to let you know, there is even discrimination within the Military. Right now, female Sailors cannot serve aboard submarines or be a SEAL.

I have had a few discussions with parents of children who did not qualify for the Military, based on some type of handicap. In each case, when I gave my side of why it would be beneficial, the parent wanted to know then why can't concessions be made for little Johnny or Sally. Sorry, that just does not happen. There is no way the Military could effectively operate if they had to bow down to every persons specific wishes or desires to accomondate them. Although in some instances it already occurs. Such as religious holidays, if you are Jewish, you can take a day off to celebrate a Jewish holiday. It does not matter how active you are in your faith. When a female gives birth, she is allowed 6 weeks off no leave time (vacation) charged to her. However, a male military member does not have that same right.

Unless you have served in the Military, you cannot even imagine what the lifestyle is. This is not to begrudge anyone for not serving, that is why we have a volunteer force. Also, you cannot imagine how many constitutional rights you either have to modify or give up when you join.

Take "Freedom of Speech". It covers a lot of different areas, however in the military, I am told what I can and cannot say. I am told how to dress either in uniform or civilian clothes. I am not allowed to get my body pierced. I could go on and on, but I think everyone gets the point.

Bottom line, no matter what any thinks, until we have a President who has the cojones (sp) (or ovaries) to sign their name and say this is the way its going to be, "Don't Ask / Don't Tell" is probably the best thing available in this country.
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#864662 - 12/02/07 04:47 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" Seadevil
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Originally Posted By: Seadevil
Originally Posted By: Tom Thumb
What is the purpose of the US military?


Basically it is right here in the Oath of Enlistment:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.


My point was that the military is not some jobs program or benefits package that everyone should be equally entitled to. It's a tool to be used in furtherance of the national security. If I believed that allowing homosexuals to serve openly would make it a better tool, I'd support it. You can argue that there is some significant number of qualified, talented individuals who want to serve, but don't, because of "don't ask; don't tell" - and that that benefit would more than offset the negative impact, right or wrong, that the introduction of open homosexuals into military units would have. I just don't think that it does.

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#864669 - 12/02/07 06:42 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" Seadevil
Becka Marr Offline
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Originally Posted By: Seadevil
Originally Posted By: Tom Thumb
What is the purpose of the US military?

Basically it is right here in the Oath of Enlistment:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; ...

Also, you cannot imagine how many constitutional rights you either have to modify or give up when you join.


Seadevil, do you find it troubling that the military does not adhere to the principles it is sworn to defend and uphold?
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#864700 - 12/03/07 10:30 AM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" Becka Marr
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Quote:
1. Support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Ok -- makes sense

2. that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same

Again, makes sense -- you shouldn't fight for something you don't believe in

3. and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

This is the biggest reason I personally could never serve in the military. I cannot follow orders I believe are wrong, and cannot follow people who I cannot respect. So I have a question in this regard -- if one is drafted (i.e., compelled against his or her will to serve) do they still have to take this oath? And what if the person honestly feels they cannot? Forcing someone to take an oath they don't believe in compells them to be a hypocrite.

4. So help me God.

So if you don't believe in God, you are just taking an oath on nothing. You can tell me to take an oath on Santa Claus -- I may not refuse because I don't believe in Santa, but if I do take an oath on his name it won't mean the same as it would for someone who does. If we wanted to have an oath that meant the same to everyone, might be better to have people swear on their own lives.

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#864723 - 12/03/07 01:36 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" The Incredible ComplyGuy
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Quote:
This is the biggest reason I personally could never serve in the military. I cannot follow orders I believe are wrong, and cannot follow people who I cannot respect.


So when Bush's term is over, you plan on enlisting?
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#864972 - 12/03/07 06:13 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: Seadevil
Originally Posted By: Tom Thumb
What is the purpose of the US military?

Basically it is right here in the Oath of Enlistment:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; ...

Also, you cannot imagine how many constitutional rights you either have to modify or give up when you join.


Seadevil, do you find it troubling that the military does not adhere to the principles it is sworn to defend and uphold?


No, because I truly don't see what principle are not being adhered to.

I made that choice in giving up certain freedoms for myself to support and defend the constitution for everybody in this United States. Did I realize it in the beginning, not really, but as I matured and continued to reenlist, I understood more. I(we) lived by a different set of rules, stricter than what the general puplic has to. That was my(our) choice and if I(we) didn't like it, I(we) have the option to leave, after the contract was up. However, during the period of that contract, no matter what my(our) beliefs, I(we) had to follow the rules.

Here is an example that may explain it. Burning the flag of the United States. Personally, I think that anyone who burns the flag should be shot on the courthouse lawn at high noon. However, those that have been put in charge decided that flag burning falls under free speech. So no matter what my true feelings were, I had to protect that individual so that he/she could burn a flag. I may not like, but that was a job that I swore to do.
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#864987 - 12/03/07 06:31 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" Seadevil
Becka Marr Offline
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Originally Posted By: Seadevil
I made that choice in giving up certain freedoms for myself to support and defend the constitution for everybody in this United States. Did I realize it in the beginning, not really, but as I matured and continued to reenlist, I understood more.


So, am I understanding correctly that, in your view, people who enlist in the military are volunteering to abstain from exercising certain freedoms granted by the constitution? Not that they are "giving up" their rights?
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#865051 - 12/03/07 07:28 PM Re: ending "don't ask don't tell" HappyGilmore
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Originally Posted By: HappyGilmore
Quote:
This is the biggest reason I personally could never serve in the military. I cannot follow orders I believe are wrong, and cannot follow people who I cannot respect.


So when Bush's term is over, you plan on enlisting?


The problem is that you could enlist at a time when you fully support the current president and then some crazy mf like Bush gets elected.

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