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#865294 - 12/03/07 10:32 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Becka Marr
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Then quit acting like the fetus is trespassing. It didn't make the choice that led to its presence.

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#865296 - 12/03/07 10:35 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill The Incredible ComplyGuy
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Originally Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy
Originally Posted By: Tom Thumb
Actually, a very large percentage are - the overwhelming majority.


How do you define "convenience"?


2004 Alan Guttmacher Institute* study - most important reason cited in study of 2,000 women having an abortion:

"Unready" - 25%
Financial - 23%
Has all the children wanted/Children are grown - 19%
Problems with relationship/wants to avoid single parenthood - 8%
Too immature/young - 7%
Would interfere with education/career plans - 4%
Parent/Partner wants her to - < 1%

Health of mother - 4%
Health issues with fetus - 3%
Rape or incest - < 0.5%

Other (unspecified) - 6%

* This is not a pro-life group.

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#865309 - 12/03/07 10:47 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill MB Guy
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Originally Posted By: MB Guy
OK, once people age enough to where they lose their independence and cannot stay alive without assistance and they lose their "viability," should we be allowed to exterminate them?

You know, for their and societies' benefit...


Ah, but that feeds right into the broader discussion on bioethics I have been developoing in here. Bioethicists seek to apply Utilitarian principals, in other words, the value of a "person" is derived from their economic contribution and ability to contribute. Thus, the elderly in various circumstances, as well as various disabled people, the mentally ill. those born with deformities, would be a drain on society and thus resources (this is all according to bioethicicsts, I am not advocating it of course) would be directed to those deemed economically feasible. This is why Peter Singer, the Father of Bioethics and a court favorite for "ethical" guidance, even deems children 2 years old or less to be less than full persons suc that parents should have the "right" to terminate their lives. So imagine how the elderly or invaild who can no longer provide direct economic benefit to society falls. Much less a terminally ill patient. The bioethicists deem hospice care for the dying a complete waste of valuable resources. So the unborn wol dbe even lower on such a totem pole.
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#865311 - 12/03/07 10:48 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Jokerman
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Originally Posted By: Tom Thumb
Then quit acting like the fetus is trespassing. It didn't make the choice that led to its presence.


Ok. So, in your view, it is not possible that a fetus could ever be considered an "intruder" because the very act of having sex (even with protection, or regardless of consent) implies that pregnancy is a desired outcome?
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#865315 - 12/03/07 10:51 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: Tom Thumb
Then quit acting like the fetus is trespassing. It didn't make the choice that led to its presence.


Ok. So, in your view, it is not possible that a fetus could ever be considered an "intruder" because the very act of having sex (even with protection, or regardless of consent) implies that pregnancy is a desired outcome?

I wouldnt say desired but accepted.

similar perhaps to a game of poker where you can take all fo the necessary precautions and play "smart" but at the end of the day, you understand that by playing you will possibly lose and accept that outcome.

granted in that situation I compared the birth of a child to losing moonney, but I guess some people look at it as a bad thing...
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#865316 - 12/03/07 10:51 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: Tom Thumb
Then quit acting like the fetus is trespassing. It didn't make the choice that led to its presence.


Ok. So, in your view, it is not possible that a fetus could ever be considered an "intruder" because the very act of having sex (even with protection, or regardless of consent) implies that pregnancy is a desired outcome?


The absurdity of such an assertion. The embryo is not a bacteria or virus. If you, through no act of your own, were placed into the jurisdiction of another party with strict trespassing laws, then certainly the person(s) responsible for transporting you there might be trespassing, but you had no decision in being place there. The "intruder" analogy is very weak for the fetus.

Again, I am not using that as a defense against abortion, just not accpeting this as a sound analogy.
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#865321 - 12/03/07 10:56 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
If you, through no act of your own, were placed into the jurisdiction of another party with strict trespassing laws, then certainly the person(s) responsible for transporting you there might be trespassing, but you had no decision in being place there.


I doubt that the other party would see it that way. So long as they deemed I had no business being in their jurisdiction, I would still be subject to their laws against trespassing.
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#865328 - 12/03/07 11:00 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
If you, through no act of your own, were placed into the jurisdiction of another party with strict trespassing laws, then certainly the person(s) responsible for transporting you there might be trespassing, but you had no decision in being place there.


I doubt that the other party would see it that way. So long as they deemed I had no business being in their jurisdiction, I would still be subject to their laws against trespassing.


Yet probably, based upon the circumstances, dealt with far less severely than those commiting the actual trespassing.
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#865329 - 12/03/07 11:03 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Becka Marr
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Corrected to reflect my view:

Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
In your view, it is not possible appropriate that a fetus could ever should be considered an "intruder" because the very act of having sex (even with protection , or regardless of consent [let's settle the other 99% before we talk about this difficult situation]) implies that acceptance of pregnancy is as a desired possible outcome.

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#865331 - 12/03/07 11:04 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
And now I'll give you food for thought. Unborn Baby is simply part of the mother's body , right? So if the baby's heart is removed, does mom experience the removal of her heart? Does her heart cease functioning? If unborn baby's limb is removed, does mother's nervous system register the removal of her own limb?


Should wouldn't-be mothers resort to suicide as a means of terminating an unwanted pregnancy? In that case, would the fetus be considered responsible for the woman's death?


I am not following you on this post Becka. Can you explain a little further?

As for my post, what I was getting at is that the unborn child is not simply part of his/her mom's body, otheerwise the impications of removing what I point out would register as such. Remove mom's arm, we know what happens. Cut her head, we know what happens. Remove child's arm while in the womb, Mom's nervous system does not register the loss of her own limb. She feels no physical pain, and experiences no loss of physiologicl function.
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#865332 - 12/03/07 11:04 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
If you, through no act of your own, were placed into the jurisdiction of another party with strict trespassing laws, then certainly the person(s) responsible for transporting you there might be trespassing, but you had no decision in being place there.


I doubt that the other party would see it that way. So long as they deemed I had no business being in their jurisdiction, I would still be subject to their laws against trespassing.


It's not a question of what would happen. We're not debating whether abortion happens more than a million times a year in this country. We're debating whether it should.

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#865335 - 12/03/07 11:19 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Jokerman
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Originally Posted By: Tom Thumb
Then quit acting like the fetus is trespassing. It didn't make the choice that led to its presence.



What if the couple used contraception but it failed? It happens. Would that be trespassing?

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#865344 - 12/03/07 11:29 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill straw
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It may be trespassing, but whose "fault" is it? It's not the fetus's act that got it there. Anyone who has consensual sex has to realize that there is a chance, even with contraception, that pregnancy will result.
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#865347 - 12/03/07 11:32 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
And now I'll give you food for thought. Unborn Baby is simply part of the mother's body , right? So if the baby's heart is removed, does mom experience the removal of her heart? Does her heart cease functioning? If unborn baby's limb is removed, does mother's nervous system register the removal of her own limb?


Should wouldn't-be mothers resort to suicide as a means of terminating an unwanted pregnancy? In that case, would the fetus be considered responsible for the woman's death?


I am not following you on this post Becka. Can you explain a little further?


I'm not sure I follow your argument, either. You started with the premise that the fetus is part of the woman's body, but your eye-for-an-eye comparison comes across as if the fetus actually is the woman. Saying that the fetus is a part of the woman's body does not imply that if it loses a limb, so does she - the end result of that argument is to suggest that if the fetus loses its life, so does the mother. Only the reverse is true, which led to the question about suicide.

Rather than ask whether removing a leg from the fetus would also cause the removal of the mother's leg, why not ask whether removing the mother's leg would also cause the removal of her eye?
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#865348 - 12/03/07 11:36 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill rainman
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Originally Posted By: rainman
It may be trespassing, but whose "fault" is it? It's not the fetus's act that got it there. Anyone who has consensual sex has to realize that there is a chance, even with contraception, that pregnancy will result.


Well there is a chance that someone may trespass on my property, even if I take precautions against it. Should I not own property because someone might trespass?
And if I take precautions but someone trespasses, is that my fault?

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#865354 - 12/03/07 11:44 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
And now I'll give you food for thought. Unborn Baby is simply part of the mother's body , right? So if the baby's heart is removed, does mom experience the removal of her heart? Does her heart cease functioning? If unborn baby's limb is removed, does mother's nervous system register the removal of her own limb?


Should wouldn't-be mothers resort to suicide as a means of terminating an unwanted pregnancy? In that case, would the fetus be considered responsible for the woman's death?


I am not following you on this post Becka. Can you explain a little further?


I'm not sure I follow your argument, either. You started with the premise that the fetus is part of the woman's body, but your eye-for-an-eye comparison comes across as if the fetus actually is the woman. Saying that the fetus is a part of the woman's body does not imply that if it loses a limb, so does she


No, but stating that the fetus is a part of the mother's body does mean that her nervous system would register pain when the fetus experiences pain, since the fetus is merely a bodypart and not its own entity. She does not though. The fetus can be removed pre-maturely and still be kept alive and grow until he/she starts to enter more advanced stages of human development. Removing a mere part of the mother's body (eye, hand etc) will not result in the development of the hand, eye etc to another stage of human development. The fetus is therefore a life unto his/her own.

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#865355 - 12/03/07 11:46 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: rainman
It may be trespassing, but whose "fault" is it? It's not the fetus's act that got it there. Anyone who has consensual sex has to realize that there is a chance, even with contraception, that pregnancy will result.


Well there is a chance that someone may trespass on my property, even if I take precautions against it. Should I not own property because someone might trespass?
And if I take precautions but someone trespasses, is that my fault?


No, but that is still an imperfect analogy. It is not your fault someone has come onto your property that you did not expect, but neither is it the fault of the individual who was taken to your property without consent or knowledge. The analogy, (imperfect on both ends) is that the fetus is the person transported to your property without consent or knowledge on his/her part.
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#865357 - 12/03/07 11:49 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
The fetus can be removed pre-maturely and still be kept alive and grow until he/she starts to enter more advanced stages of human development.


So, then there is a way to terminate a pregnancy without using deadly force?
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#865358 - 12/03/07 11:50 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill TheManofSteel
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Ok, extend the analogy (or is it metaphor, always get those mixed up). Even if a person was transported without their consent and trespassed, would I still not be able to protect myself from the trespass.

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#865359 - 12/03/07 11:52 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
The fetus can be removed pre-maturely and still be kept alive and grow until he/she starts to enter more advanced stages of human development.


So, then there is a way to terminate a pregnancy without using deadly force?


I have no doubt that science will develop this as an option eventually. Wouldn't that make abortion useless? And all these children would get a chance at life and people will willingly adopt them, right?

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#865360 - 12/03/07 11:53 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
The fetus can be removed pre-maturely and still be kept alive and grow until he/she starts to enter more advanced stages of human development.


So, then there is a way to terminate a pregnancy without using deadly force?


I think it depends upon how far along the pregnancy. According to my GF Nurse, it is at 23 weeks.
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#865361 - 12/03/07 11:56 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
Ok, extend the analogy (or is it metaphor, always get those mixed up). Even if a person was transported without their consent and trespassed, would I still not be able to protect myself from the trespass.


Is that person who was transported to your prop against their consent or lacking knowledge, acting as a threat to you? I'd think so. That, I gather, is comparable to those specific instances in which the pregnancy is threatening the health of the mother.
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#865362 - 12/03/07 11:56 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
The fetus can be removed pre-maturely and still be kept alive and grow until he/she starts to enter more advanced stages of human development.


So, then there is a way to terminate a pregnancy without using deadly force?


I have no doubt that science will develop this as an option eventually. Wouldn't that make abortion useless? And all these children would get a chance at life and people will willingly adopt them, right?


In loving, Conservative households, I'm sure.
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#865364 - 12/03/07 11:57 PM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
The fetus can be removed pre-maturely and still be kept alive and grow until he/she starts to enter more advanced stages of human development.


So, then there is a way to terminate a pregnancy without using deadly force?


I have no doubt that science will develop this as an option eventually. Wouldn't that make abortion useless? And all these children would get a chance at life and people will willingly adopt them, right?


I believe science has gotten to the point where this can happen at 23 weeks. Will science be able to develop the means for earlier? I Dunno. Unfortunately, there are many couples that want to adopt children, but from what some people I know of who adopted go through, it is a very difficult process. It should not be if the lives of the unborn children are spared...
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#865382 - 12/04/07 12:07 AM Re: Man Accused Of Slipping Woman Abortion Pill Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: Ms. Becka
Originally Posted By: The Man of Steel
The fetus can be removed pre-maturely and still be kept alive and grow until he/she starts to enter more advanced stages of human development.


So, then there is a way to terminate a pregnancy without using deadly force?


I have no doubt that science will develop this as an option eventually. Wouldn't that make abortion useless? And all these children would get a chance at life and people will willingly adopt them, right?


In loving, Conservative households, I'm sure.


Clear the waiting lists at least.
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