Ok, a few things.

#1. TMOS, I'm not against just military, covert, police, and/or judicial operations. I am against torture. There is a HUGE difference.

#2. Jolly (I really don't know why you call yourself that), I would not want them to be tortured. I would mourn the loss of my family, but I do not want the moral implications of torturing and harming someone on my conscience.

#3. KMS, thus since we are at war we should treat those captured in the name of this war as prisoners of war and treat them in accordance to the Geneva Convention. How would you want to be treated as a prisoner of war?

#4. Red Dawn is a movie. This is reality. And the reality is, America is becoming the symbol of moral decay for allowing these things to happen. We have to reclaim the moral high ground.

So, in the ticking time bomb scenario, I'm supposed to doubt my willingness to "torture" (and I don't agree that waterboarding is torture, by the way) someone based on the chance that they might give me misinformation? If innocent lives are on the line, I know that I won't get the information without torture, but I might get the information with torture, where is the regret going to come in?

Torture is wrong because of what it does to the society that accepts it as a practice. Not because of its efficacy or lack thereof. And certainly not because it may cause some low-life terrorist to think less of my country.

So what is your response to Former CIA interrogator John Kiriakou, who has knowledge of the waterboarding of Abu Zubaida, when he says, "waterboarding is torture and "Americans are better than that.""?

Waterboarding useful but torture - former U.S. agent
http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-30938320071211

Boy, am I ever glad that we aren't related.

(Although I wonder if it would be as easy for you to stick to your "moral high ground" if this were in fact reality, rather than a hypotheticical that we both hope never happens)

Those two statements almost always conflict. Under the Geneva Convention, most of these detainees can be immediately executed as illegal combatants. Is that ok with you, Frank?

How convenient. So when an army covert operative infitrates a terror cell's physical location, then plugs bullets into them, that is perfectly ok. But if that terrorist is in custody with pertinent knowledge of immanent danger ot human life, waterboarding him is torture

When Israeli gunships target an on-the-run terrorist (after alerting local civilians of an impending operation)and shoot him down, {Jimmy Carter feels this is terror on the part of the Israelis}(and the U.S. does support Israel in these tactics) and I presume you feel, since it is military, it is justified. But get Al Qaeda's Number 2 and subject him to waterboarding, that is torture

No. We've covered my feelings on executions and such. If that is allowed in the Geneva Convention, I'd suggest it is time to update international law.

I disagree with him that waterboarding is torture. I agree with him that America is above torture.

Torture is chopping off limbs. Removing fingernails. Raping a family member. Raping you.

Scaring someone is not torture - even causing them to fear for their life.

TMOS:
I believe in the Just War doctrine from the Catholic Church.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/just_war.htm

It's easy to be judgmental when you are warm and safe at home...

Just as easy as it is to be antagonistic, belligerent, and shameless.

Wow... I can not believe some of this stuff. I can not understand how anyone could hold the rights of a terrorist above that of an innocent person, or 3000 innocent people. Snow - Would you have a problem with using the same tactics as punishment on someone who, I don't know, raped a 10 month old baby?

But, what's the point in arguing? According to Senator Bond from Missouri, waterboarding is just like swimming and it is not even being used (apparently the Senator doesn't have news coverage in Missouri. Must be because of the storms)! So why the argument?

Waterboarding = Swimming
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/060885.php

Time to grow up, Cowboy.

"4. Red Dawn is a movie. This is reality. And the reality is, America is becoming the symbol of moral decay for allowing these things to happen. We have to reclaim the moral high ground"



So should we just round up all the muslims in american put theme in camps and take the moral highground like we did in WWII. Not torture. Or is this when our moral decay began?

Heat, yes I would. By allowing our morals to decay to a torturous and perverted level we are no better than those we are 'punishing'.

As far as I am concerned, that is ducking the issue I raised in comparing and contrasting waterboarding, which results in no physical harm, with military ops that result in grave physical harm and death.

It is easy to quote the Catholic Church's position on Just War, but I am not asking if you agree with the Church, I am pointing out the absurdity of stating support for implementing strategy and tactics that result in grave harm and death, and comparing that with not supporting waterboarding against the very same individuals wherein no physical harm is resultant. It is untenable to a reasonable mind.

KMS, internment was wrong than and it would be as wrong now. But if you want to intern Muslims into a camp, I'm sure iAutomate and _X_ would be happy to sign up to be the 'wranglers'.

TMOS:
Death caused by just military action is not the same as torture. And I'm sorry friend, psychological torture is STILL torture.

"How would you want to be treated as a prisoner of war?"


I would expect to be put up at the Ritz. What do you think Frank? If i am a prisoner of war it is my job to give up no information other than that stated in an earlier post. I am doing my job. I know I would be tortured, raped and probably killed but that is the risk I KNOWINGLY took when I committed that oath. You and your buddies just don't get it, there are people out there that would do anything for this country, there are those that ACTIVELY support them, and then there are the me me me people, who cares about anyone else.


Where do you fall into?

Growing up, to me MB, does not mean becoming another old, angry, white man. Growing up, to me MB, means realizing it is time to do the right thing.

Okay, I vote we just kill them all, and don't take prisoners.. That should appease the "Moral" issues poised. Better to take their lives than to subject them to "psycological torture"

It all is so clear now

So we claim moral victory as we get slaughtered...bully for us...

No, growing up means that you realize life is more than moral absolutes in black and white, and that sometimes good men have to less than good things to ensure freedom.

I support those who serve this country in service. Be it military, foreign, intelligence, or social service KMS.

But I do not support torture, war crimes, or blood in my name.