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#902250 - 02/08/08 06:44 PM "Choice"
rainman Offline
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Yossarian said:

Quote:
Rainman: Actually, choice is not a red herring, but your comment highlights the difference between the two sides. One side opposes the woman having an abortion, the other isn't concerned about whether she has an abortion, the issue for them is whether she has a legal choice.

So they aren't diametrically opposed. For example, a situation where the woman has no legal choice but does have an abortion would anger both sides for different reasons. This could happen when there is an illegal abortion, or if there were a government somewhere that REQUIRED women to have abortions.

But there is also a "win-win" situation - where a woman chooses to carry the pregnancy to term both sides get what they want. Choice AND ALSO no abortion. We should focus on making every pregnancy a wanted pregnancy to the extent that it's possible.


Yoss, I completely agree with your last sentence. But I think your "choice" logic is faulty. Would you say the same thing about gun control?
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#902252 - 02/08/08 06:49 PM Re: "Choice" rainman
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rainman, as long as you're bringing this issue up again, you never did answer my question: what would you call someone who firmly believes in a woman's right to choose not to have an abortion?
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#902274 - 02/08/08 07:15 PM Re: "Choice" Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Becka Marr
rainman, as long as you're bringing this issue up again, you never did answer my question: what would you call someone who firmly believes in a woman's right to choose not to have an abortion?


I am not answering for RM, as he may have either a different angle or a more eloquent way of expressing it. What many of us have a problem with, when utilizing the term "pro-choice" as applied to the right to have an abortion and/or , as you put it, the right to choose not to have an abortion, is that in either case, a "right" is being recognized that potentiates a party's right to ending an innocent human life or to have the potential not to do so with the equivalent right to still carry out an abortion if one chose to do so. I hope the way I wrote that is not too confusing, Becka.

Again, I am not sure if that is RM's take on it.
Last edited by Sentinel; 02/08/08 07:21 PM.
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#902280 - 02/08/08 07:24 PM Re: "Choice" rainman
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What exactly do you think is faulty about it? Do you think the examples I cited are wrong? If so, how?

You call choice a red herring because that's not the issue FOR YOU. But for the other side that's precisely the issue. If starting right now every woman who became pregnant had a legal choice and every one of them chose not to have an abortion there would be zero abortions yet prochoice people would be satisfied. Would you accept that result?

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#902284 - 02/08/08 07:29 PM Re: "Choice" Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Becka Marr
rainman, as long as you're bringing this issue up again, you never did answer my question: what would you call someone who firmly believes in a woman's right to choose not to have an abortion?


Becka,I apologize for intrding on your question to Rain. But I culd not let this go without responding.

The "choice" in pro-choice is not about a woman choosing not to have an abortion. It is about the choice to terminate the pregnancy without sanction or hindrance. This results in the death of the unborn child.

We should applaud every woman who chooses life for her unborn child. This is especially true when the pregnancy represents a hardship for the woman or her family, or where she will not parent the child. IMO, the hardest decision any parent makes is to give up a child for adoption.
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#902286 - 02/08/08 07:33 PM Re: "Choice" TheManofSteel
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Becka, I only created this thread because I had to respond to Yoss's comment in the Romney thread but I didn't want to hijack it. Honestly, I have to "unpack" your question to even answer it, because I think there are two sides of the "right" you refer to, but you are only dealing with one.

The woman has a right to carry her preganancy to term (as far as I know, China is the only place where this right is unquestioned). I don't have any short name for a person who supports this right.

I also believe that an unborn child has a right not to be "terminated." In the US, I would call a person who supports this right "pro-life" or "anti-abortion." I'll leave for another day (or a search of prior threads) a discussion of when this right begins and under what circumstances a woman's rights would "trump" the unborn child's right.
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#902288 - 02/08/08 07:36 PM Re: "Choice" Yossarian
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Originally Posted By: Yossarian
What exactly do you think is faulty about it? Do you think the examples I cited are wrong? If so, how?

You call choice a red herring because that's not the issue FOR YOU. But for the other side that's precisely the issue. If starting right now every woman who became pregnant had a legal choice and every one of them chose not to have an abortion there would be zero abortions yet prochoice people would be satisfied. Would you accept that result?


Yoss, choice is only an issue if you have already made a dermination that the thing which is chosen is legally or morally okay. If we assume that there is nothing wrong with abortion, then of course choice is an issue! But we have to make that assumption in order to make choice the issue.
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#902289 - 02/08/08 07:37 PM Re: "Choice" redsfan
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pro "choice" columnist anna quindlen recently lambasted the makers of the films "knocked up", "juno", "waitress" and "bella" for glorifying young women not having abortions, saying in essence that it was the wrong message to be sending young girls. That's where the red herring argument comes from, imho.
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#902301 - 02/08/08 07:48 PM Re: "Choice" rainman
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Quote:
choice is only an issue if you have already made a dermination that the thing which is chosen is legally or morally okay.


Well, the Supreme Court did say it was legal. "Choice" really is a shorthand way of saying "legal choice". People who support that decision support having it be a legal choice. You have every right to wish that it wasn't legal, but it is, isn't it?

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#902303 - 02/08/08 07:49 PM Re: "Choice" Yossarian
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#902322 - 02/08/08 08:15 PM Re: "Choice" rainman
Becka Marr Offline
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Originally Posted By: rainman
Honestly, I have to "unpack" your question to even answer it, because I think there are two sides of the "right" you refer to, but you are only dealing with one.


And you are only dealing with the other. When you are ready to deal with the whole picture, then Yossarian's logic will make sense.
Last edited by Becka Marr; 02/08/08 08:57 PM.
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#902326 - 02/08/08 08:16 PM Re: "Choice" redsfan
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Originally Posted By: redsfan
The "choice" in pro-choice is not about a woman choosing not to have an abortion. It is about the choice to terminate the pregnancy without sanction or hindrance.


No, "choice" is about giving people options and allowing them to make their own decisions.
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#902333 - 02/08/08 08:24 PM Re: "Choice" Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Becka Marr
Originally Posted By: redsfan
The "choice" in pro-choice is not about a woman choosing not to have an abortion. It is about the choice to terminate the pregnancy without sanction or hindrance.


No, "choice" is about giving people options and allowing them to make their own decisions.


Once again, your statement ignores the fact that "their own decisions" intrudes upon the right to live for one that is unable to exercise his/her option to make a decision.
Furthermore if "choice" is not about terminating a pregnancy without sanction or hindrance, as Redsfan states, but is more abstractly applied to having "options and allowing them to make their own decisions" as you assert, then Roe v. Wade applies to pretty much every venue where any decision about anything is made. "Choice" as applied to abortion was never meant to be abstract and broadly applied to any option about any decision.
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#902334 - 02/08/08 08:28 PM Re: "Choice" TheManofSteel
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Actually, if you could name another medical procedure where the patient (or proxy) does not have the choice, I would be interested in hearing it.

Roe v Wade could apply to every decision if the government were to pass a law that says men could no longer get vasectomies.

The only reason abortion is unique is because of the fetus.

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#902343 - 02/08/08 08:40 PM Re: "Choice" TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: Sentinel
Furthermore if "choice" is not about terminating a pregnancy without sanction or hindrance, as Redsfan states, but is more abstractly applied to having "options and allowing them to make their own decisions" as you assert, then Roe v. Wade applies to pretty much every venue where any decision about anything is made. "Choice" as applied to abortion was never meant to be abstract and broadly applied to any option about any decision.


"Choice" is always about having options and allowing people to make their own decisions. Roe v Wade simply gives a specific context in which this generality is applied.
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#902348 - 02/08/08 08:44 PM Re: "Choice" straw
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Quote:
The only reason abortion is unique is because of the fetus.


This only reason is the chief reason why the issue was and is an issue.
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#902349 - 02/08/08 08:46 PM Re: "Choice" Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Becka Marr
Originally Posted By: Sentinel
Furthermore if "choice" is not about terminating a pregnancy without sanction or hindrance, as Redsfan states, but is more abstractly applied to having "options and allowing them to make their own decisions" as you assert, then Roe v. Wade applies to pretty much every venue where any decision about anything is made. "Choice" as applied to abortion was never meant to be abstract and broadly applied to any option about any decision.


"Choice" is always about having options and allowing people to make their own decisions. Roe v Wade simply gives a specific context in which this generality is applied.


The context of Rainman's original post was not about the abstract application of "choice", but the application of "choice" to terminating pregnacy that results in the death of an innocent, at least I garnered that from his post.
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#902373 - 02/08/08 09:23 PM Re: "Choice" TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: Sentinel
Quote:
The only reason abortion is unique is because of the fetus.


This only reason is the chief reason why the issue was and is an issue.


Chief reason? Are there any other reasons?

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#902376 - 02/08/08 09:28 PM Re: "Choice" Becka Marr
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Originally Posted By: Becka Marr
Originally Posted By: rainman
Honestly, I have to "unpack" your question to even answer it, because I think there are two sides of the "right" you refer to, but you are only dealing with one.


And you are only dealing with the other. When you are ready to deal with the whole picture, then Yossarian's logic will make sense.


No, you've got it backwards - there is a logical order here. You have to evaluate the subject of the choice before you determine whether the choice should exist and if so, what limits should be applied to it.

We treat the "choices" to use alcohol and heroin differently because of how we view alcohol and heroin, not because of how we view choice. We view alcohol as less harmful to society than heroin, so we place mild limits on the choice to drink alcohol but we prohibit the use of heroin altogether.

As Straw noted, the fetus is the crux of the issue. If you don't view the fetus as having any human status, there's no reason to limit the woman's choice. If you view the fetus as having human status, the woman's choice now collides with an important right (life) of another.
Last edited by rainman; 02/08/08 09:33 PM.
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#902378 - 02/08/08 09:30 PM Re: "Choice" straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: Sentinel
Quote:
The only reason abortion is unique is because of the fetus.


This only reason is the chief reason why the issue was and is an issue.


Chief reason? Are there any other reasons?


Money is another reason, Straw. Regardless of ones position on this complex and divisive issue, the abortion industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. Planned parenthood, founded by racist white-supremacist Margaret Sanger, makes money hand over fist. And, together with certain radical pro-abortion groups, have funded campaigns of misinformation for years.
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#902385 - 02/08/08 09:40 PM Re: "Choice" rainman
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Quote:
You have to evaluate the subject of the choice before you determine whether the choice should exist and if so, what limits should be applied to it.


"Should exist"????

Whether you believe that it "should" exist or not, you can't deny that it currently does exist, can you? If and when the current state of the law changes then "choice" might mean something different.

You seem to be talking about the world as you want it to be rather than as it is.

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#902405 - 02/08/08 09:56 PM Re: "Choice" TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: Sentinel
Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: Sentinel
Quote:
The only reason abortion is unique is because of the fetus.


This only reason is the chief reason why the issue was and is an issue.


Chief reason? Are there any other reasons?


Money is another reason, Straw. Regardless of ones position on this complex and divisive issue, the abortion industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. Planned parenthood, founded by racist white-supremacist Margaret Sanger, makes money hand over fist. And, together with certain radical pro-abortion groups, have funded campaigns of misinformation for years.


Well, I guess we are fortunate that the pro-life groups have neither funded misinformation campaigns nor made billions from this issue.

And money is not an issue as to why an abortion, alone among medical procedures, should not be solely the patient's choice to undergo or not.

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#902407 - 02/08/08 09:57 PM Re: "Choice" Yossarian
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Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
You have to evaluate the subject of the choice before you determine whether the choice should exist and if so, what limits should be applied to it.


"Should exist"????

Whether you believe that it "should" exist or not, you can't deny that it currently does exist, can you? If and when the current state of the law changes then "choice" might mean something different.


Even if or when the current state of the law changes, the choice will still exist. Only the consequences will be different. Studies have shown that making abortion an illegal choice does not deter women from having them, it only makes it more dangerous. Or, where the law prohibits abortion, women will simply learn how to self-induce miscarriage.
Last edited by Becka Marr; 02/08/08 10:00 PM.
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#902413 - 02/08/08 09:59 PM Re: "Choice" Yossarian
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Quote:
One side opposes the woman having an abortion, the other isn't concerned about whether she has an abortion, the issue for them is whether she has a legal choice.


Yoss, I'm talking about how we address the issue as you stated it.

There's no room for debate about what the law IS. If you assume that the law is right, you don't need to go any further. I thought the question we were discussing was what the law SHOULD be.
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#902416 - 02/08/08 10:02 PM Re: "Choice" straw
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Quote:
Money is another reason, Straw. Regardless of ones position on this complex and divisive issue, the abortion industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. Planned parenthood, founded by racist white-supremacist Margaret Sanger, makes money hand over fist. And, together with certain radical pro-abortion groups, have funded campaigns of misinformation for years.


Quote:
Well, I guess we are fortunate that the pro-life groups have neither funded misinformation campaigns nor made billions from this issue.

I would say that is a very accurate statement, regardless of the intended facetiousness.

Quote:
And money is not an issue as to why an abortion, alone among medical procedures, should not be solely the patient's choice to undergo or not.

Money may not be an issue as to the right or wrong of abortion solely being a patient's choice, but it is certainly a contributing reason why abortion remains an issue to this day, which is what i was responding to.
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