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#902431 - 02/08/08 10:17 PM Re: "Choice" rainman
Yossarian Offline
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,436
Quote:
I thought the question we were discussing was what the law SHOULD be.


No, as you may remember, we were discussing your statement that the term "choice" was a red herring. As things currently are, those that use the term "choice" are defending exactly that - a woman's right to legally choose whether to have an abortion.

When I said "One side opposes the woman having an abortion, the other isn't concerned about whether she has an abortion, the issue for them is whether she has a legal choice." I was talking about the fact that one side cares about the decision (whether there is an abortion or not) while the other cares about the right to make the decision (whether it is legal or not) rather than the decision itself.

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#902443 - 02/08/08 10:40 PM Re: "Choice" Yossarian
rainman Offline
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rainman
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,030
Quote:
defending . . . . a woman's right to legally choose


unless you're talking about whether the law should be different from what it is, there's nothing to defend against
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#902482 - 02/09/08 01:33 AM Re: "Choice" rainman
Yossarian Offline
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,436
Oh, come on. You know it's constantly being challenged.

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#902492 - 02/09/08 02:58 PM Re: "Choice" Yossarian
Snowqueen Offline
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Snowqueen
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,289
dreaming of a warm beach......
As a woman of the United States I will fight to keep this law for as long as I live.

The basics of Roe vs. Wade:

1. A woman and her doctor may freely decide to terminate a pregnancy during the first trimester,
2. State governments can restrict abortion access after the first trimester with laws intended to protect the woman's health.
3. Abortions after fetal viability must be available if the woman's health or life are at risk; state governments can prohibit other abortions.

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#902499 - 02/09/08 05:53 PM Re: "Choice" Yossarian
rainman Offline
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rainman
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,030
Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Oh, come on. You know it's constantly being challenged.


You're right, Yoss. In fact that's the point of this thread. So of course I'm talking about what I think the law should be and not what it is! The meaning of the word "choice" and its application in this context don't change depending on what the law is - what changes with the law is the scope of the choice that's available.

Snowqueen, I'm not arguing about the basics of Roe, and I appreciate that this is an important issue to you. I do believe that a woman's (or a man's) right to control her/his own body and healthcare decisions is one of the most important rights we possess. It shouldn't be interfered with except when it conflicts with someone else's fundamental rights. If I didn't believe that a fetus is something that is closer to human than it is to a clump of tissue, I would firmly believe that abortion is a personal medical decision that should be made without interference.

I don't expect to change your mind and I appreciate your post - I only started this thread because Yoss picked up on the "choice" argument in the other thread and I couldn't let it go. For me, talking about it in terms of choice is a sidetrack from actually discussing the harder biological, philosophical, and moral issues: what is it that's growing in there? how does our classification of what's growing in there impact our rules about abortion?
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#902687 - 02/11/08 04:23 PM Re: "Choice" rainman
Kronott Offline
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Kronott
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 469
From my point of view, yes even us males get a point of view in this matter, the choice comes before sex. In our society we have made birth control of every stripe available to anyone that wants it. Condoms, shots, patches and pills all to prevent the consequences of our actions. But even with all of these at our disposal, some would rather just destroy a life/potential life then face the consequences of their own actions. It maybe your body, and you may want to treat a pregnancy like a cold and just have the doctor take care of it, but that is still my son or my daughter that you are taking out of my life; and thanks to Roe v Wade, I have no say in the matter. I have a problem with that.

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#902704 - 02/11/08 04:48 PM Re: "Choice" Kronott
DEL Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 730
Maine
Originally Posted By: Kronott
From my point of view, yes even us males get a point of view in this matter, the choice comes before sex. In our society we have made birth control of every stripe available to anyone that wants it. Condoms, shots, patches and pills all to prevent the consequences of our actions. But even with all of these at our disposal, some would rather just destroy a life/potential life then face the consequences of their own actions. It maybe your body, and you may want to treat a pregnancy like a cold and just have the doctor take care of it, but that is still my son or my daughter that you are taking out of my life; and thanks to Roe v Wade, I have no say in the matter. I have a problem with that.


According to your own logic, you do have a say. How about the choice to have sex with a woman who would consider having an abortion, should her action with you result in pregnancy? What's keeping you from discussing all this before you have sex? You don't HAVE to have sex if the woman tells you she would consider an abortion. In fact, don't have sex at all until you and your partner are both ready for kids.

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#902712 - 02/11/08 04:56 PM Re: "Choice" TheManofSteel
straw Offline
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straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
Quote:
Money is another reason, Straw. Regardless of ones position on this complex and divisive issue, the abortion industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. Planned parenthood, founded by racist white-supremacist Margaret Sanger, makes money hand over fist. And, together with certain radical pro-abortion groups, have funded campaigns of misinformation for years.


Quote:
Well, I guess we are fortunate that the pro-life groups have neither funded misinformation campaigns nor made billions from this issue.


Quote:
I would say that is a very accurate statement, regardless of the intended facetiousness.


Of course you would believe that.


Quote:
Quote:
And money is not an issue as to why an abortion, alone among medical procedures, should not be solely the patient's choice to undergo or not.

Money may not be an issue as to the right or wrong of abortion solely being a patient's choice, but it is certainly a contributing reason why abortion remains an issue to this day, which is what i was responding to.


Actually, the only reason this continues to be an issue is because of the religious implications the fetus brings to the decision. If the fetus was a tumor, (I am only using this analogy to demonstrate the medical component, not that I believe the fetus is a tumor), money, religion, politics, morals, etc. would not be a part of it.

The money comes into it because of these issues.

But you will disagree and lets just call it good.

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#902713 - 02/11/08 04:56 PM Re: "Choice" DEL
Kronott Offline
Gold Star
Kronott
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 469
Originally Posted By: DEL
Originally Posted By: Kronott
From my point of view, yes even us males get a point of view in this matter, the choice comes before sex. In our society we have made birth control of every stripe available to anyone that wants it. Condoms, shots, patches and pills all to prevent the consequences of our actions. But even with all of these at our disposal, some would rather just destroy a life/potential life then face the consequences of their own actions. It maybe your body, and you may want to treat a pregnancy like a cold and just have the doctor take care of it, but that is still my son or my daughter that you are taking out of my life; and thanks to Roe v Wade, I have no say in the matter. I have a problem with that.


According to your own logic, you do have a say. How about the choice to have sex with a woman who would consider having an abortion, should her action with you result in pregnancy? What's keeping you from discussing all this before you have sex? You don't HAVE to have sex if the woman tells you she would consider an abortion. In fact, don't have sex at all until you and your partner are both ready for kids.


I do know what the result would be if my SO and I were to fall in the .01% and she were to become pregnant. But not everyone is having sex with someone they have been with and will continue to be with. And the fact that in today's culture consequences are irrelevant, just makes that type of behavior that much more palatable.

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