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#934071 - 04/01/08 07:51 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
Pale Rider
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10K Club
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 10,395
Jersey Shore
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crosses can be part of a landscape Without a doubt, but they will tend to possess 3 dimensions, particularly when they are the focal point of the landscape. In this case the pyramids, excuse me, mountains, were drawn with more care than the cross.
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#934075 - 04/01/08 07:52 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
Hrothgar Geiger
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,228
Cincinnati, OH
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BF,
1. as a landscape, the drawing is pretty awful. 2. the student was a senior, and the policy might not have been a surprise. 3. the student tore up the school policy and refused to follow it.
Try this concept for a moment. Assignment: draw a landscape Student draws a landscape that is actually a sexually explicit figure. Teacher asks the student to re-draw the landscape, and shows the school policy. Student refuses to re-do the assignment, and tears up the school policy. What grade do you expect the teacher to give? Based on the policy, a 0. However, the policy is carp and hopefully this lawsuit will get rid of it. My issue is not with the grade, but with a policy that won't allow someone to express their own beliefs in a personal way in an art class. It's one thing if it is something designed to upset people, and another when it just expresses love.
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#934081 - 04/01/08 07:54 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
A_G
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,912
Outside A Garage
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crosses can be part of a landscape, they were pretty common two millenia ago Unlike you, not all of us were alive that long ago. Some came along a week later.
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#934089 - 04/01/08 07:57 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
Hrothgar Geiger
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,068
Fortress of Solitude
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BF,
1. as a landscape, the drawing is pretty awful. 2. the student was a senior, and the policy might not have been a surprise. 3. the student tore up the school policy and refused to follow it. Yet, the teacher and principle claim that his drawing of the Cross infringed upon other's constitutional rights, ya know the ones he signed away when opting to attend the class: A Buddha and Hindu figurines are on display in a social studies classroom, the lawsuit claims, adding the teacher passionately teaches Hindu principles to students.
In addition, a replica of Michaelangelo's "The Creation of Man" is displayed at the school's entrance, a picture of a six-limbed Hindu deity is in the school's hallway and a drawing of a robed sorcerer hangs on a hallway bulletin board.
Drawings of Medusa, the Grim Reaper with a scythe and a being with a horned head and protruding tongue hang in the art room and demonic masks are displayed in the metals room, the lawsuit alleges.
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"Beneath an ever watchful eye...the angels of the temple fly"
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#934091 - 04/01/08 07:57 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
B_F
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,912
Outside A Garage
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BF,
1. as a landscape, the drawing is pretty awful. 2. the student was a senior, and the policy might not have been a surprise. 3. the student tore up the school policy and refused to follow it.
Try this concept for a moment. Assignment: draw a landscape Student draws a landscape that is actually a sexually explicit figure. Teacher asks the student to re-draw the landscape, and shows the school policy. Student refuses to re-do the assignment, and tears up the school policy. What grade do you expect the teacher to give? Based on the policy, a 0. However, the policy is carp and hopefully this lawsuit will get rid of it. My issue is not with the grade, but with a policy that won't allow someone to express their own beliefs in a personal way in an art class. It's one thing if it is something designed to upset people, and another when it just expresses love. I disagree. The student should have been expelled, but not before corporal punishment laws were reinstituted and carried out on this scofflaw. In order to completely wipe any evidence of faith from the public arena, we must make an example of a few.
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...you guys, I'm going home
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#934106 - 04/01/08 08:03 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
B_F
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10K Club
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,390
Cheeseheadland
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However, the policy is carp and hopefully this lawsuit will get rid of it. My issue is not with the grade, but with a policy that won't allow someone to express their own beliefs in a personal way in an art class. It's one thing if it is something designed to upset people, and another when it just expresses love. What about that little provison about the separation of church and state? The student is certainly free to create any art he wishes on his own time to his own terms, but in the public school setting in which he is enrolled, follows the rules kiddo. If you do not like it, choose home schooling or private school. Otherwise kiddo, deal.
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I don't repeat gossip, so listen closely...
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#934111 - 04/01/08 08:06 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
Pale Rider
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Power Poster
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,195
Basking in the Cool Weather
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crosses can be part of a landscape, they were pretty common two millenia ago
and the reference could have been part of the student's sig line
nevertheless, I like that policy I actually dont beleive that they were that common... reserved for only cruel punishments...
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#934113 - 04/01/08 08:07 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
B_F
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10K Club
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 10,395
Jersey Shore
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Based on the policy, a 0. However, the policy is carp and hopefully this lawsuit will get rid of it. My issue is not with the grade, but with a policy that won't allow someone to express their own beliefs in a personal way in an art class. It's one thing if it is something designed to upset people, and another when it just expresses love.
It's really a question of both the policy, and the student's behavior. Tearing up the policy is a very different act than respectfully declining to change the picture out of a strong religious feeling. As far as drawings with sexual connotations go, the policy is not 'carp', but actually guards the students against being charged with the creation of child pornography (if they draw sexual pictures of people their own age, it's child pornography), the art teacher with possession, etc.
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#934116 - 04/01/08 08:09 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
#Just Jay
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,068
Fortress of Solitude
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However, the policy is carp and hopefully this lawsuit will get rid of it. My issue is not with the grade, but with a policy that won't allow someone to express their own beliefs in a personal way in an art class. It's one thing if it is something designed to upset people, and another when it just expresses love. What about that little provison about the separation of church and state? The student is certainly free to create any art he wishes on his own time to his own terms, but in the public school setting in which he is enrolled, follows the rules kiddo. If you do not like it, choose home schooling or private school. Otherwise kiddo, deal. Yet images of Hindu deities and of the Buddah are perfectly acceptable In common nomenclature, it is called a double standard.
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"Beneath an ever watchful eye...the angels of the temple fly"
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#934119 - 04/01/08 08:11 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
#Just Jay
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,985
FINALLY ABOVE the gnat line
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However, the policy is carp and hopefully this lawsuit will get rid of it. My issue is not with the grade, but with a policy that won't allow someone to express their own beliefs in a personal way in an art class. It's one thing if it is something designed to upset people, and another when it just expresses love. What about that little provison about the separation of church and state? The student is certainly free to create any art he wishes on his own time to his own terms, but in the public school setting in which he is enrolled, follows the rules kiddo. If you do not like it, choose home schooling or private school. Otherwise kiddo, deal. This student was not engaging the state in the practice of any religion. If the school felt that strongly about religion then the school needs to remove EVERYTHING it currently has on display that relates to a religious topic. From the article - it doesn't appear that the school has anything against religions of all kinds - they just didn't want this kid to express his faith in his art. That's pretty bogus.
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#934122 - 04/01/08 08:13 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
#Just Jay
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,228
Cincinnati, OH
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However, the policy is carp and hopefully this lawsuit will get rid of it. My issue is not with the grade, but with a policy that won't allow someone to express their own beliefs in a personal way in an art class. It's one thing if it is something designed to upset people, and another when it just expresses love. What about that little provison about the separation of church and state? The student is certainly free to create any art he wishes on his own time to his own terms, but in the public school setting in which he is enrolled, follows the rules kiddo. If you do not like it, choose home schooling or private school. Otherwise kiddo, deal. The state shall make no law prohibiting the free expression of religion. This is quite clearly a rule prohibiting such. This is not about a public school forcing any religion upon the child. Wait, I take that back, it is indeed a public school forcing him to abandon his religious beliefs. It is about a public school condoning one religion (Buddhism) while refusing to allow this individual to express his own faith individually. The state here is requiring the student to be exposed to other faiths, while refusing to allow him to express his own.
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#934123 - 04/01/08 08:13 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
TheManofSteel
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,912
Outside A Garage
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What about that little provison about the separation of church and state?
Where is this provision located? stir, stir, stir
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...you guys, I'm going home
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#934127 - 04/01/08 08:17 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
Hrothgar Geiger
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10K Club
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,857
Pulling people out of the ditc...
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higher than zero though eh Barbarian?
or no? You raise an excellent point. We don't know what the assignment was. It could very well have been "draw all your mountains to look like pyramids, and give dimension to everything but the focal point of the picture, make shadows as if the light is coming from 16 sources and don't put anything in the foreground" In that case, he should have gotten a higher grade. or for those who are literacy challenged, or have comprehension issues, I've snipped the following from the article According to the lawsuit, the student's art teacher asked his class in February to draw landscapes
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#934133 - 04/01/08 08:21 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
Blade Scrapper
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10K Club
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 18,989
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What about that little provison about the separation of church and state?
Where is this provision located? stir, stir, stir supreme court transcripts
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With the lights out, it's less dangerous.
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#934134 - 04/01/08 08:22 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
TheManofSteel
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10K Club
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,390
Cheeseheadland
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Yet images of Hindu deities and of the Buddah are perfectly acceptable In common nomenclature, it is called a double standard. I do not disagree... the district also appears to be in violation of its own policy.
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I don't repeat gossip, so listen closely...
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#934141 - 04/01/08 08:25 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
A_G
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,925
So Cal
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What about that little provison about the separation of church and state?
Where is this provision located? stir, stir, stir supreme court transcripts So legislating from the bench is cool when we agree with the decision of at least five people but not when we disagree? Got it.
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I've just writed a wrong.
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#934143 - 04/01/08 08:26 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
GuitarDude
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10K Club
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 18,989
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Hey I'm not saying if it's right or wrong - he just asked a place where the provision could be found.
Last edited by DevilQueen; 04/01/08 08:28 PM.
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With the lights out, it's less dangerous.
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#934144 - 04/01/08 08:27 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
#Just Jay
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,912
Outside A Garage
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But not in the constitution, only in some liberal interpretations.
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...you guys, I'm going home
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#934152 - 04/01/08 08:30 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
B_F
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Power Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,349
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I read the article, I also *saw* the picture. The picture, on its own merits, didn't rate a very high grade as far as I could see. I didn't see any of the 'demonic' images that were alleged. You raise an excellent point. We don't know what the assignment was. It could very well have been "draw all your mountains to look like pyramids, and give dimension to everything but the focal point of the picture, make shadows as if the light is coming from 16 sources and don't put anything in the foreground" In that case, he should have gotten a higher grade. Assignment: "the student's art teacher asked his class in February to draw landscapes." According to the lawsuit, the student's art teacher asked his class in February to draw landscapes. ????
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If your tagline references disclaimers regarding the nature of political posts, then you should just hit notify.
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#934160 - 04/01/08 08:37 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
Blade Scrapper
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,925
So Cal
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But not in the constitution, only in some liberal interpretations. This is the same place "Freedom of speech" became "Freedom to say what you want if I agree with it." Not coincidentally, if this case involved a Muslim student who drew Islamic images, the word "Xenophobe" would have been uttered countless times and then a person's right to express his beliefs would get some attention.
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I've just writed a wrong.
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#934164 - 04/01/08 08:40 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
Blade Scrapper
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Power Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,349
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The issue with the lawsuit has been totally missed by pretty much everyone in the posts. The teacher would not have given a score of a 0, and the student did not remove the religous references because other students artwork contained religous references.
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If your tagline references disclaimers regarding the nature of political posts, then you should just hit notify.
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#934192 - 04/01/08 08:58 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
Sound Tactic
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10K Club
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,857
Pulling people out of the ditc...
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Well, it wasn't missed by me, as I led with that in the original post. Everyone else may have missed it, as they were too busy showing they were right...
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Providing alternative truths since the invention of time
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#934230 - 04/01/08 09:26 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
HappyGilmore
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Power Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,349
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Yeah and appearently reading the material but missing what was stated in the material. That is wierd.
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If your tagline references disclaimers regarding the nature of political posts, then you should just hit notify.
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#934256 - 04/01/08 09:57 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
B_F
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
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BF,
1. as a landscape, the drawing is pretty awful. 2. the student was a senior, and the policy might not have been a surprise. 3. the student tore up the school policy and refused to follow it.
Try this concept for a moment. Assignment: draw a landscape Student draws a landscape that is actually a sexually explicit figure. Teacher asks the student to re-draw the landscape, and shows the school policy. Student refuses to re-do the assignment, and tears up the school policy. What grade do you expect the teacher to give? Based on the policy, a 0. However, the policy is carp and hopefully this lawsuit will get rid of it. My issue is not with the grade, but with a policy that won't allow someone to express their own beliefs in a personal way in an art class. It's one thing if it is something designed to upset people, and another when it just expresses love. Didn't you argue to defend a school policy regarding hair cuts and saying that if the parents didn't like the policy, they should go to public school? I guess if you personally agree with a policy, then it should be enforced to the letter, but if you disagree with it, they should ignore it and sue in court, rather than fight with the scool board, to change it.
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#934263 - 04/01/08 10:08 PM
Re: A pretty sad day in America
doobydoobydoo
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 34,318
under the Lone Star
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crosses can be part of a landscape, they were pretty common two millenia ago
and the reference could have been part of the student's sig line
nevertheless, I like that policy I actually dont beleive that they were that common... reserved for only cruel punishments... this form of punishment was in general use from the 7th century before the common era -- Alexander the Great is reported to have had this done to 2,000 survivors of the siege of Tyre It was the established mode of execution, even for wealthy and army generals in Carthage It is mentioned in the Quran, even in Japan in antiquity
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