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#934831 - 04/02/08 06:00 PM Re: A pretty sad day in America rainman
straw Offline
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Originally Posted By: rainman
Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: rainman
A policy that says no religious icons is not "religious neutral" - it is anti-religion. It discriminates against any religion in favor of non-religion or atheism.


Then define a religiously neutral policy.


I would "define" it as one that doesn't discriminate among religions and doesn't discriminate in favor of non-religion over religion (or vice versa).

An example would be what I already stated: No icons of any kind may be included in artwork.

(You can argue that the term "icon" automatically implies religion, but: a) this is just an example, you get what I mean, and b) an example of a non-religious "icon" would be the Boston Red Sox logo.)


No icons of any kind may be included in artwork.

Isn't that what the policy in question here states? As I said, there seems to be an issue with the policy's application, but the policy is going to be found valid.

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#934834 - 04/02/08 06:02 PM Re: A pretty sad day in America rainman
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
Originally Posted By: rainman
Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: rainman
A policy that says no religious icons is not "religious neutral" - it is anti-religion. It discriminates against any religion in favor of non-religion or atheism.


Then define a religiously neutral policy.


I would "define" it as one that doesn't discriminate among religions and doesn't discriminate in favor of non-religion over religion (or vice versa).

An example would be what I already stated: No icons of any kind may be included in artwork.

(You can argue that the term "icon" automatically implies religion, but: a) this is just an example, you get what I mean, and b) an example of a non-religious "icon" would be the Boston Red Sox logo.)


playing devils advocate (no pun intended)...but if i'm an athiest, and don't believe in any type of God or higher being, and I already don't have any icons to follow, I'm now feeling bad that I don't have an icon to restrict, and therefore am feeling inadequate...how will you compensate my pain?
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#934844 - 04/02/08 06:07 PM Re: A pretty sad day in America straw
rainman Offline
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Quote:
No icons of any kind may be included in artwork.

Isn't that what the policy in question here states? As I said, there seems to be an issue with the policy's application, but the policy is going to be found valid.


I don't think so, at least that's not what the article indicates. From the article:

Quote:
Millin showed the student a policy for the class that prohibited any violence, blood, sexual connotations or religious beliefs in artwork. The lawsuit claims Millin told the boy he had signed away his constitutional rights when he signed the policy at the beginning of the semester.

. . .

Jackson told the boy, his stepfather and his pastor at a meeting a week later that religious expression could be legally censored in class assignments. Millin stated at the meeting the cross in the drawing also infringed on other students' rights.


If that's really what the policy is, I don't think it will be upheld.
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#934854 - 04/02/08 06:12 PM Re: A pretty sad day in America rainman
straw Offline
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Well let's wait and see. I don't think there will be a ruling anyway, as the parties will settle.

But trust me, the policy would be upheld, so long as it was uniformly applied, which it doesn't sound like it was.

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#934864 - 04/02/08 06:15 PM Re: A pretty sad day in America straw
rainman Offline
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Originally Posted By: straw
Well let's wait and see. I don't think there will be a ruling anyway, as the parties will settle.

But trust me, the policy would be upheld, so long as it was uniformly applied, which it doesn't sound like it was.



I disagree - a policy that prohibits religious expression violates the first amendment on its face. By definition it can't be undiformly applied.
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#934878 - 04/02/08 06:21 PM Re: A pretty sad day in America rainman
straw Offline
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straw
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First Amendment rights are allowed to be limited under certain cirmcumstances. Moreover, the first amendment states

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

As you will note, the amendment says no law may be made abridging the freedom of speech, but of course, you cannot just gather a crowd and march down the main square without possibly being arrested. Free assembly (as it is known) is limited by permitting ordinances to allow the state to have police to prevent lawlessness.

Similarly, you have heard Holmes' famous quote that "you cannot shout fire in a crowded theater".

The standard in place is that a law abriding these rights must be neutral on its face (meaning applies to all, not just certain people) and there must be a compelling state interest to protect.

The schools have argued, and won, that the compelling state interest is learning environment, etc.

The issue is well settled.

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#934880 - 04/02/08 06:23 PM Re: A pretty sad day in America rainman
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
I seem to recall a court case a few years ago about freedom of expression in a school setting, and the court ruled that schools can restrict rights, as long as it is applied uniformly. I'm sure one of the attorneys (or those posing) can do a search in Lexis if inclined.
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#934881 - 04/02/08 06:24 PM Re: A pretty sad day in America straw
rainman Offline
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I don't have time to look at cases now, but one thing that is settled: if the school allows clubs (i.e. chess club) to meet in its rooms, it also has to allow religious clubs to do the same.

I won't argue (further) with you unless I have time to go find something to back me up - not gonna happen anytime soon.
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#934887 - 04/02/08 06:27 PM Re: A pretty sad day in America rainman
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
allowing clubs to meet is one thing, curriculum is another. The topic at hand seems to be more curriculum related to me...
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#934894 - 04/02/08 06:30 PM Re: A pretty sad day in America rainman
straw Offline
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straw
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Originally Posted By: rainman
I don't have time to look at cases now, but one thing that is settled: if the school allows clubs (i.e. chess club) to meet in its rooms, it also has to allow religious clubs to do the same.

I won't argue (further) with you unless I have time to go find something to back me up - not gonna happen anytime soon.


That is correct. And if the school allowed other religious beliefs in artwork, but not the cross, they would be in trouble.

If you have the time or inclination, take a look at the case law. Like you, I do this from memory here, short if what a quick yahoo search can find.

No sweat though. I would like to see the case go through to find out what really happened at the school.

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