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#941051 - 04/11/08 09:10 PM Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly?
Imagine Offline
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Is it?

Obama on small-town PA: Clinging religion, guns, xenophobia

Quote:
You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them...And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.


I think it is just brutal honesty.

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#941059 - 04/11/08 09:19 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Imagine
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Especially when certain political types keep telling them they are victims of a "downright mean" society.
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#941060 - 04/11/08 09:20 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Imagine
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more like political opportunism to me -------

they cling to guns.....

they cling to religion....

they cling to dislike of people not like them......

they cling to anti-immigrant sentiment......

they cling to anti-trade sentiment......


their mistake was believing politicians ccan do something that politicians are not capable of pulling off

and all this young man's promises of hope and change will accomplish similar outcomes.........................
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#941069 - 04/11/08 09:30 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Pale Rider
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This reminds me of the infamous Howard Dean comment from the 2004 campaign.

He said, to much media coverage, "Sooner or later, voters in places like that (the South) are going to grow tired of voting on guns, God and gays and start voting on education, health care and jobs".
http://www.cnsnews.com/Politics/archive/200407/POL20040728d.html

or when he said he wanted to get the votes of, "guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E04E2DA1739F935A35752C1A9659C8B63

In my opinion, neither what Dean or Obama said is wrong. It is the painful truth.

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#941075 - 04/11/08 09:38 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Imagine
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politicians speaking truth --- hmmmm

I gotta think about that one for a minute

but my initial comment to Dr. Dean would be that there are jobs, health care and education in the south - probably more so than up north with the population movement we have going on....

and the comment about white guys with Confederate flags and wanting their vote - I don't know what to say to that, I have never seen a truck with that kind of flag
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#941078 - 04/11/08 09:42 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Pale Rider
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Pale, then you've never been to a NASCAR race in Martinsville, Virginia...


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#941082 - 04/11/08 09:45 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Imagine
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Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Pale, then you've never been to a NASCAR race in Martinsville, Virginia...



this is a true statement; but really what % of the truck driving south has a confed flag waving briskly in the breeze?

Texas is the truck capital of the south if not all the world, and I have never seen one
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#941089 - 04/11/08 09:55 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Pale Rider
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PR:
Look at the bigger issue. Look at the "God, Guns, and Gays" voters (there are quite a few). Are those reasons the right (or wrong) reasons to vote for or against a politician?

Dean was right. His comments were the seeds of a 50 state strategy. It is because of Dean's comments regarding voting blocks the Democrats need to reach out too, that we have won Senate seats in Virginia and Montana. It is also the reason why there are Democratic Governors in Wyoming, Montana, Virginia, Kansas, etc.

Are those comments by Dean, and Obama, tactful? No.

But do they hit a point highlighting the real problem with how, and why, people vote a certain way? Yes.

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#941094 - 04/11/08 10:09 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Imagine
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Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
PR:
Look at the bigger issue. Look at the "God, Guns, and Gays" voters (there are quite a few). Are those reasons the right (or wrong) reasons to vote for or against a politician?



Voting according to one's values is a fine reason to vote for a candidate, IMHO.
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#941095 - 04/11/08 10:11 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Imagine
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I guess I am not following Dean;

what was the 50 state strategy? To emphasize God, Guns and Gays? To have more middle of the road democrats running in Virginia, Montana, Wyoming, Montana, Kansas, etc?

isn't there a rythm, pattern or an ebb and flow to all this?

If this is the "bigger issue", then why Obama? This guy is the farthest left of all democrat Senators. Won't his administration start the pendulum swinging back?
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#941110 - 04/11/08 10:34 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Pale Rider
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The Dean point was that the Democrats NEED to reach out to the rural white males, those who care about gun rights and are value voters. The 50 State strategy is to make sure Democrats can win in ALL 50 states. (Which is the source of my contempt for Clinton people who claim states such as Wyoming, which Obama won, do not count because there is no way Democrats can win there in November.)

Don, you ask "Why Obama?".
I don't have an answer to that. But keep in mind some of the states he has won: Iowa, Nevada, South Carolina, Alabama, Alaska, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, North Dakota, Utah, Louisiana, Nebraska, Virginia, Texas (Caucus), Wyoming and Mississippi. These are not "blue' states, yet Obama won them in HUGE numbers.

Therefore, there is SOMETHING about Obama that reaffirms Dean's calls to reach out to the Confederate flag waving, pick up truck driving, blue collar worker. I mean, he has to be winning SOME of these folks, I don't think there are THAT many Starbucks in North Dakota...

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#941113 - 04/11/08 10:36 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Pale Rider
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50-state strategy

Quote:
Dean proposed what has come to be known as the 50-State Strategy. The goal, the DNC says, is for the Democratic Party to be committed to winning elections at every level in every region of the country, with Democrats organized in every single voting precinct in the country.

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#941116 - 04/11/08 10:43 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Imagine
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Winning in a primary is hardly the same thing as winning in the general election. Conneticut Democrats learned that when they decided to oust a popular Senator.
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#941118 - 04/11/08 10:44 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Blade Scrapper
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PR, you may have to explain this, as I am sure I am on ignore.
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#941140 - 04/12/08 02:09 AM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Blade Scrapper
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PA
Originally Posted By: Typ. White Persn
Winning in a primary is hardly the same thing as winning in the general election.


I agree. These may be red states that Obama is winning, but he's up against other Democrats. In that setting and context, he'll get votes just because his name isn't Clinton.

As for Obama's (and Dean's) statements. I don't mind that they lack tact, I just think they're incorrect.

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#941148 - 04/12/08 02:51 AM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? JacF
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This statement just shows how much of a true blue class warfare socialist left-winger the man really is. Every election, these leftists try to float the woe-is-me victim mentality. Now, to elect people who have traditionally not supported his views, try spewing the same nonsense at them, leading them to believe that good ol' social programs are going to elevate them to some form of prosperity that only personal initiative and determination can really do.
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#941160 - 04/12/08 04:38 AM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Blade Scrapper
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Originally Posted By: Typ. White Persn
PR, you may have to explain this, as I am sure I am on ignore.


Have no fear... He Who Shall Not Be Named (HWSNBN) will hit the quote button so HWSNBN will be able to read what you posted.
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#941166 - 04/12/08 11:40 AM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
This statement just shows how much of a true blue class warfare socialist left-winger the man really is. Every election, these leftists try to float the woe-is-me victim mentality. Now, to elect people who have traditionally not supported his views, try spewing the same nonsense at them, leading them to believe that good ol' social programs are going to elevate them to some form of prosperity that only personal initiative and determination can really do.


I did not get ANY of that from Obama's comments. In fact, my interpretation of Obama's comments showed that he does COMPLETELY understand the reasoning for the bitterness of "small town" folk. The Government promises them that it will get better. Any administration does so. But when the promises fail, people get bitter. And when the times get tough, it is easier to blame others. I don't live in a small town by any means, nor is it in PA or the midwest, but what Obama's saying is real. So many people here, who are down on their luck and have financial worries, are so quick to blame those "immigrants" who come over and take our jobs. It is so easy to blame someone else for your woes.

I just honestly, feel that Obama is speaking the blunt truth on this issue.

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#941167 - 04/12/08 11:42 AM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Imagine
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Quote:
And so people end up- they don’t vote on economic issues because they don’t expect anybody’s going to help them. So people end up, you know, voting on issues like guns, and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. And they take refuge in their faith and their community and their families and things they can count on. But they don’t believe they can count on Washington. So I made this statement-- so, here’s what rich. Senator Clinton says ‘No, I don’t think that people are bitter in Pennsylvania. You know, I think Barack’s being condescending.’ John McCain says, ‘Oh, how could he say that? How could he say people are bitter? You know, he’s obviously out of touch with people.’

“Out of touch? Out of touch? I mean, John McCain—it took him three tries to finally figure out that the home foreclosure crisis was a problem and to come up with a plan for it, and he’s saying I’m out of touch? Senator Clinton voted for a credit card-sponsored bankruptcy bill that made it harder for people to get out of debt after taking money from the financial services companies, and she says I’m out of touch? No, I’m in touch. I know exactly what’s going on. I know what’s going on in Pennsylvania. I know what’s going on in Indiana. I know what’s going on in Illinois. People are fed-up. They’re angry and they’re frustrated and they’re bitter. And they want to see a change in Washington and that’s why I’m running for President of the United States of America.”


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0408/Obama_explains_SF_comments.html

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#941169 - 04/12/08 11:51 AM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Pale Rider
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Watch the video. People in Indiana seem to agree with him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9PepjyDow

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#941177 - 04/12/08 02:23 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Imagine
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Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
[quote=TheWitchDoctor]This statement just shows how much of a true blue class warfare socialist left-winger the man really is. Every election, these leftists try to float the woe-is-me victim mentality. Now, to elect people who have traditionally not supported his views, try spewing the same nonsense at them, leading them to believe that good ol' social programs are going to elevate them to some form of prosperity that only personal initiative and determination can really do.


Quote:
It is so easy to blame someone else for your woes.


Gee, you mean like Oppression Consciousness. "I am a victim of this group or that group." Funny how Obama wants to point out hostility of one group toward immigrants, but no of his base constituency toward "typical whites", toward corporate America, toward the wealthy, and of course, toward those he defines as wealthy but are not really by U.S. standards etc .

See it for what it is--Class Warfare continuously repackaged.
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#941182 - 04/12/08 02:57 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? TheManofSteel
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Do you deny that there is class warfare in America?
A wise man once said, "Poor man want to be rich, Rich man wants to be King, and the King ain't satisfied 'til he rules everything".

And whom has he defined as wealthy that are not by "U.S. standards"?

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#941201 - 04/12/08 07:44 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Imagine
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Quote:
You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them...And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.


to say this gives credence to an inappropriate/non sequitor/emotional/victim-mentality/offensive placement of blame. yes, that is wrong. honestly.

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#941213 - 04/12/08 10:45 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Imagine
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
Quote:
The Government promises them that it will get better But when the promises fail, people get bitter


that's strange, but I thought Obama was part of teh government...silly me.
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#941219 - 04/12/08 11:44 PM Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? Imagine
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Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Do you deny that there is class warfare in America?
A wise man once said, "Poor man want to be rich, Rich man wants to be King, and the King ain't satisfied 'til he rules everything".

And whom has he defined as wealthy that are not by "U.S. standards"?


Frank, I do not deny that the perception of class warfare is promulgated by the far left, pushing the "I am a victim" mentality. To be fair, yes, I also think that there do exist unscrupulous people that want to, and do, advance at the wrongful expense of others, but I do not for one minute buy that there is a widespread and purposeful institutionalized attempt by a group of people called the "haves" trying to keep down the "have nots."

Most people who attain affluence work hard, and smart, to advance and improve their lives. They do not whine for the government to help them and cry when the government doesn't. You can however, see the people who do think in terms of "carry me along please, it is owed to me." You know them by their attitude that they think the world owes them a living.

Rent the movie with Will Smith "The Pursuit of HappyGilmore ur um "The Pursuit of Happyness" and see the true story of a black man with only the clothes on his back, and his little boy, that had to sleep in his car. poor and destitute, only to persevere against so many odds, to become one of the world's wealthiest and most successful businessmen. He did not whine, and he did not step on anyone---
Here is a quick 1 minute synopsis of Chris Gardner's story:

http://www.chrisgardnermedia.com/main/biography.htm

My take-->Perseverance, persistence, belief in oneself and one's creator, keeping your eye on the prize----> that is how one improves their life and the lives of others. Not crying "I am oppressed by this system, this group, this vast conspiracy."

Ok, rant ended, now rip me a new a**h*le
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