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#941243 - 04/13/08 02:45 PM Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penalty
TheManofSteel Offline
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I readily admit there are some true pieces of garbage that are not worthy of continuing their existence among us, and I really find it hard to shed a tear when the right person gets it. But with our system imperfect to the degree that it is in applying justice in the form of the penalty of death, it makes the case for life imprisonment without parole as being the harshest form of justice more and more palatable.

Read this story, and yes, I think the lawyers took the easy way out. Bullsh!t argument on ethics:

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/a-26-year-old-secret-could-free-inmate/20080412163409990001
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#941256 - 04/13/08 05:51 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penalty TheManofSteel
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Lawyers are sorry excuses for human beings some time. How you can defend and protect a murderer while an innocent man sits in prison is beyond me.
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#941258 - 04/13/08 06:11 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penalty TheManofSteel
Yossarian Offline
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Quote:
Bullsh!t argument on ethics


Would you feel this same way if it had been a priest that learned the information in a confession? That would be privileged in the same way. What would you think of a priest for withholding this type of information?

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#941261 - 04/13/08 07:12 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Yossarian
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Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
Bullsh!t argument on ethics


Would you feel this same way if it had been a priest that learned the information in a confession? That would be privileged in the same way. What would you think of a priest for withholding this type of information?


I would frown upon it just the same.
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#941306 - 04/14/08 01:22 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
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Things like this put the lawyers in a bad position. Our system of law is by no means perfect, which is why any punishment that cannot be reduced, reversed, or immediately ended if a convicted man or woman is found to be innocent is cruel and unjust.

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#941307 - 04/14/08 01:24 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
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This really sickens me.

Quote:
Chicago police had electrically shocked, beaten and burned him with a radiator to secure his confession. (Decades later, a special prosecutor's report concluded police had tortured dozens of suspects over two decades.)


Those confessions are what convince juries that a man should be put to death, and convince the public watching trials that the right man is in custody.
Last edited by Bengalsfan; 04/14/08 01:24 PM.
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#941311 - 04/14/08 01:32 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
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Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
This really sickens me.

Quote:
Chicago police had electrically shocked, beaten and burned him with a radiator to secure his confession. (Decades later, a special prosecutor's report concluded police had tortured dozens of suspects over two decades.)


Those confessions are what convince juries that a man should be put to death, and convince the public watching trials that the right man is in custody.


BF, I'm going to single you out because you're the one who posted this and not because of any personal reasons.

If you get sickened because of the torture that this man went through, and you admit it (the torture) taints his confessions are you still in favor of waterboarding? Or is that not torture in your mind?

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#941315 - 04/14/08 01:49 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Imagine
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#941321 - 04/14/08 01:56 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Imagine
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Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
This really sickens me.

Quote:
Chicago police had electrically shocked, beaten and burned him with a radiator to secure his confession. (Decades later, a special prosecutor's report concluded police had tortured dozens of suspects over two decades.)


Those confessions are what convince juries that a man should be put to death, and convince the public watching trials that the right man is in custody.


BF, I'm going to single you out because you're the one who posted this and not because of any personal reasons.

If you get sickened because of the torture that this man went through, and you admit it (the torture) taints his confessions are you still in favor of waterboarding? Or is that not torture in your mind?


When was I ever in favor of waterboarding American Citizens? Heck, for that matter, when was I ever in favor of waterboarding non-citizens?

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#941323 - 04/14/08 02:00 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
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I am in favor of waterboarding ---
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#941328 - 04/14/08 02:03 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Pale Rider
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Personally, I prefer Wakeboarding.

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#941332 - 04/14/08 02:08 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
TheManofSteel Offline
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It has still not been outright determined that waterboarding is torture. Furthermore, I provided articles months ago quoting Nancy Pelosi and other members of the Democrat leadership on their position on waterboarding up through 2004, where they were quite well-informed of its use, and apparently had no problem, until it became politically expedient to use it to besmirch the Bush Admin.

Anyhow, it was shown to be effective in gathering information from AL Qaeda's number 2 man, unlike the terrible unconstitutional treatment of U.S. citizens by the polics as was quoted int he article. Thus, KMS's allusion to apples and oranges appears quite appropriate.
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#941335 - 04/14/08 02:14 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
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Witchdoc,

How can you say that there is any question as to weather waterboarding is torture, or at minimum coercion?

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#941342 - 04/14/08 02:20 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
TheManofSteel Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Witchdoc,

How can you say that there is any question as to weather waterboarding is torture, or at minimum coercion?


No application of pain thrugh pressure, bludgeoning or cutting. However, I am not saying it is definiteively not torture; I am saying that it was not agreed to in definition as a consensus; it was after the question arose about it, that the Dem Leadership and some Repubs in Congress started to make a publcu issue of it no doubt to further defame the Bush Admin.

Either way, if it is truly torture, I'd agree, it has to be scrapped. But it is not a good analogy in so many ways with what the author of the article points out were abuses against U.S. citizens in police custody.
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#941354 - 04/14/08 02:27 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Pale Rider
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BF, I did not mean to make it out to seem like you're in favor of torture, waterboarding, or anything of the like.

I was just using your disgust to point out that we, as a people, should be disgusted when torture is used on ALL people. Be it citizen or not.

Of course, I welcome those who feel that waterboarding is not torture to line up and put their money where their mouths are.

And as far as saying that there might have been a point in time where Pelosi and the Dems were for waterboarding DOES NOT make it right. It is not a Conservative/Liberal question or a Republican/Democrat one. It is a question of whether we value life or we don't.

But, back to the point at hand (the death penalty). I'm proud of NJ's decision to outlaw it because of situations similar to the ones that WitchDoctor pointed out. There are far too many questions as to whether innocents have been killed or not.

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#941403 - 04/14/08 03:07 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Imagine
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as _X_ would say, what codswallop!
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#941405 - 04/14/08 03:08 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor


Either way, if it is truly torture, I'd agree, it has to be scrapped.


It pretty much has been scrapped. It was only used 3 times, and not since early 2003.
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#941412 - 04/14/08 03:14 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Pale Rider
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This article was so upsetting, because you have a legal system that effectively denies justice. Fortunately, Alton Logan wasn't executed.
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#941425 - 04/14/08 03:21 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Bacon Boy
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Yes Bacon, because these may very well have been the best years of this man's life. If the situation was such that one of these attorney's in question had a child of their own in Mr. Logan's situation, would they have pulled this twisted application of ethics horsecrap? I highly doubt it.

Justice has to be the underlying principle in the system, and they knew damn well that justice was not being served. Had the death penalty been applied to Mr. Logan...

And the true criminal, their client, was a real lowlife scumbag for letting Mr. Logan be punished like that. Reminds me of Shawshank Redemption.
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#941436 - 04/14/08 03:27 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
If the situation was such that one of these attorney's in question had a child of their own in Mr. Logan's situation, would they have pulled this twisted application of ethics horsecrap? I highly doubt it.


So do I, however, not because they didn't believe in the application of legal ethics, but because personal gain and desire would make it so that they would be willing to risk their careers for their family.

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#941441 - 04/14/08 03:28 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Blade Scrapper
TheManofSteel Offline
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Originally Posted By: Typ. White Persn
Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor


Either way, if it is truly torture, I'd agree, it has to be scrapped.


It pretty much has been scrapped. It was only used 3 times, and not since early 2003.


At least it was effective on Al Zawahari
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#941444 - 04/14/08 03:30 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
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Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
If the situation was such that one of these attorney's in question had a child of their own in Mr. Logan's situation, would they have pulled this twisted application of ethics horsecrap? I highly doubt it.


So do I, however, not because they didn't believe in the application of legal ethics, but because personal gain and desire would make it so that they would be willing to risk their careers for their family.


You are likely correct BF, but they of course are not going to claim that.
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#941469 - 04/14/08 03:53 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
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How many of you are ready to sacrifice your careers right now? For any reason?

Not an easy decision to make, believe me.

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#941471 - 04/14/08 03:53 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
Yossarian Offline
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Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
Bullsh!t argument on ethics


Would you feel this same way if it had been a priest that learned the information in a confession? That would be privileged in the same way. What would you think of a priest for withholding this type of information?


I would frown upon it just the same.


And would there be these personal attacks on the priest? Would you consider it "twisted" logic on the ethics of priest-penitent privilege?

Either some conversations are privileged from disclosure or they are not. This is obviously an extreme example of the cost of such privilege. But should there be no privileged conversations at all? Or only in difficult situations?

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#941475 - 04/14/08 03:56 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
How many of you are ready to sacrifice your careers right now? For any reason?

Not an easy decision to make, believe me.


For my family? I'd sacrifice my career in a heartbeat.

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