Learn More - Click Here!

Page 1 of 2 1 2
Thread Options
#941243 - 04/13/08 02:45 PM Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penalty
TheManofSteel Offline
10K Club
TheManofSteel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,068
Fortress of Solitude
I readily admit there are some true pieces of garbage that are not worthy of continuing their existence among us, and I really find it hard to shed a tear when the right person gets it. But with our system imperfect to the degree that it is in applying justice in the form of the penalty of death, it makes the case for life imprisonment without parole as being the harshest form of justice more and more palatable.

Read this story, and yes, I think the lawyers took the easy way out. Bullsh!t argument on ethics:

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/a-26-year-old-secret-could-free-inmate/20080412163409990001
_________________________
"Beneath an ever watchful eye...the angels of the temple fly"

Return to Top
Chat! - BOL Watercooler
#941256 - 04/13/08 05:51 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penalty TheManofSteel
Blessed Offline
Diamond Poster
Blessed
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,389
USA
Lawyers are sorry excuses for human beings some time. How you can defend and protect a murderer while an innocent man sits in prison is beyond me.
_________________________
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)

Return to Top
#941258 - 04/13/08 06:11 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penalty TheManofSteel
Yossarian Offline
Diamond Poster
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,436
Quote:
Bullsh!t argument on ethics


Would you feel this same way if it had been a priest that learned the information in a confession? That would be privileged in the same way. What would you think of a priest for withholding this type of information?

Return to Top
#941261 - 04/13/08 07:12 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Yossarian
TheManofSteel Offline
10K Club
TheManofSteel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,068
Fortress of Solitude
Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
Bullsh!t argument on ethics


Would you feel this same way if it had been a priest that learned the information in a confession? That would be privileged in the same way. What would you think of a priest for withholding this type of information?


I would frown upon it just the same.
_________________________
"Beneath an ever watchful eye...the angels of the temple fly"

Return to Top
#941306 - 04/14/08 01:22 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
B_F Offline
Power Poster
B_F
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,228
Cincinnati, OH
Things like this put the lawyers in a bad position. Our system of law is by no means perfect, which is why any punishment that cannot be reduced, reversed, or immediately ended if a convicted man or woman is found to be innocent is cruel and unjust.

Return to Top
#941307 - 04/14/08 01:24 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
B_F Offline
Power Poster
B_F
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,228
Cincinnati, OH
This really sickens me.

Quote:
Chicago police had electrically shocked, beaten and burned him with a radiator to secure his confession. (Decades later, a special prosecutor's report concluded police had tortured dozens of suspects over two decades.)


Those confessions are what convince juries that a man should be put to death, and convince the public watching trials that the right man is in custody.
Last edited by Bengalsfan; 04/14/08 01:24 PM.
Return to Top
#941311 - 04/14/08 01:32 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
Imagine Offline
Power Poster
Imagine
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,624
Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
This really sickens me.

Quote:
Chicago police had electrically shocked, beaten and burned him with a radiator to secure his confession. (Decades later, a special prosecutor's report concluded police had tortured dozens of suspects over two decades.)


Those confessions are what convince juries that a man should be put to death, and convince the public watching trials that the right man is in custody.


BF, I'm going to single you out because you're the one who posted this and not because of any personal reasons.

If you get sickened because of the torture that this man went through, and you admit it (the torture) taints his confessions are you still in favor of waterboarding? Or is that not torture in your mind?

Return to Top
#941315 - 04/14/08 01:49 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Imagine
kms Offline
Power Poster
kms
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,436
God Bless America
apples and oranges
_________________________
Tag you're it!!

Return to Top
#941321 - 04/14/08 01:56 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Imagine
B_F Offline
Power Poster
B_F
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,228
Cincinnati, OH
Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
This really sickens me.

Quote:
Chicago police had electrically shocked, beaten and burned him with a radiator to secure his confession. (Decades later, a special prosecutor's report concluded police had tortured dozens of suspects over two decades.)


Those confessions are what convince juries that a man should be put to death, and convince the public watching trials that the right man is in custody.


BF, I'm going to single you out because you're the one who posted this and not because of any personal reasons.

If you get sickened because of the torture that this man went through, and you admit it (the torture) taints his confessions are you still in favor of waterboarding? Or is that not torture in your mind?


When was I ever in favor of waterboarding American Citizens? Heck, for that matter, when was I ever in favor of waterboarding non-citizens?

Return to Top
#941323 - 04/14/08 02:00 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
Pale Rider Offline
10K Club
Pale Rider
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 34,318
under the Lone Star
I am in favor of waterboarding ---
_________________________
Societies that do not find work in and of itself "pleasing to God and requisite to Man," tend to be highly corrupt.


Return to Top
#941328 - 04/14/08 02:03 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Pale Rider
B_F Offline
Power Poster
B_F
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,228
Cincinnati, OH
Personally, I prefer Wakeboarding.

Return to Top
#941332 - 04/14/08 02:08 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
TheManofSteel Offline
10K Club
TheManofSteel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,068
Fortress of Solitude
It has still not been outright determined that waterboarding is torture. Furthermore, I provided articles months ago quoting Nancy Pelosi and other members of the Democrat leadership on their position on waterboarding up through 2004, where they were quite well-informed of its use, and apparently had no problem, until it became politically expedient to use it to besmirch the Bush Admin.

Anyhow, it was shown to be effective in gathering information from AL Qaeda's number 2 man, unlike the terrible unconstitutional treatment of U.S. citizens by the polics as was quoted int he article. Thus, KMS's allusion to apples and oranges appears quite appropriate.
_________________________
"Beneath an ever watchful eye...the angels of the temple fly"

Return to Top
#941335 - 04/14/08 02:14 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
B_F Offline
Power Poster
B_F
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,228
Cincinnati, OH
Witchdoc,

How can you say that there is any question as to weather waterboarding is torture, or at minimum coercion?

Return to Top
#941342 - 04/14/08 02:20 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
TheManofSteel Offline
10K Club
TheManofSteel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,068
Fortress of Solitude
Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Witchdoc,

How can you say that there is any question as to weather waterboarding is torture, or at minimum coercion?


No application of pain thrugh pressure, bludgeoning or cutting. However, I am not saying it is definiteively not torture; I am saying that it was not agreed to in definition as a consensus; it was after the question arose about it, that the Dem Leadership and some Repubs in Congress started to make a publcu issue of it no doubt to further defame the Bush Admin.

Either way, if it is truly torture, I'd agree, it has to be scrapped. But it is not a good analogy in so many ways with what the author of the article points out were abuses against U.S. citizens in police custody.
_________________________
"Beneath an ever watchful eye...the angels of the temple fly"

Return to Top
#941354 - 04/14/08 02:27 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Pale Rider
Imagine Offline
Power Poster
Imagine
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,624
BF, I did not mean to make it out to seem like you're in favor of torture, waterboarding, or anything of the like.

I was just using your disgust to point out that we, as a people, should be disgusted when torture is used on ALL people. Be it citizen or not.

Of course, I welcome those who feel that waterboarding is not torture to line up and put their money where their mouths are.

And as far as saying that there might have been a point in time where Pelosi and the Dems were for waterboarding DOES NOT make it right. It is not a Conservative/Liberal question or a Republican/Democrat one. It is a question of whether we value life or we don't.

But, back to the point at hand (the death penalty). I'm proud of NJ's decision to outlaw it because of situations similar to the ones that WitchDoctor pointed out. There are far too many questions as to whether innocents have been killed or not.

Return to Top
#941403 - 04/14/08 03:07 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Imagine
Pale Rider Offline
10K Club
Pale Rider
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 34,318
under the Lone Star
as _X_ would say, what codswallop!
_________________________
Societies that do not find work in and of itself "pleasing to God and requisite to Man," tend to be highly corrupt.


Return to Top
#941405 - 04/14/08 03:08 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
Blade Scrapper Offline
Power Poster
Blade Scrapper
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,912
Outside A Garage
Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor


Either way, if it is truly torture, I'd agree, it has to be scrapped.


It pretty much has been scrapped. It was only used 3 times, and not since early 2003.
_________________________
...you guys, I'm going home

Return to Top
#941412 - 04/14/08 03:14 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Pale Rider
Bacon Boy Offline
10K Club
Bacon Boy
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,244
Stuck w/Avatar
This article was so upsetting, because you have a legal system that effectively denies justice. Fortunately, Alton Logan wasn't executed.
_________________________
It's called a nap, Susan Lucci!

Return to Top
#941425 - 04/14/08 03:21 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Bacon Boy
TheManofSteel Offline
10K Club
TheManofSteel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,068
Fortress of Solitude
Yes Bacon, because these may very well have been the best years of this man's life. If the situation was such that one of these attorney's in question had a child of their own in Mr. Logan's situation, would they have pulled this twisted application of ethics horsecrap? I highly doubt it.

Justice has to be the underlying principle in the system, and they knew damn well that justice was not being served. Had the death penalty been applied to Mr. Logan...

And the true criminal, their client, was a real lowlife scumbag for letting Mr. Logan be punished like that. Reminds me of Shawshank Redemption.
_________________________
"Beneath an ever watchful eye...the angels of the temple fly"

Return to Top
#941436 - 04/14/08 03:27 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
B_F Offline
Power Poster
B_F
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,228
Cincinnati, OH
Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
If the situation was such that one of these attorney's in question had a child of their own in Mr. Logan's situation, would they have pulled this twisted application of ethics horsecrap? I highly doubt it.


So do I, however, not because they didn't believe in the application of legal ethics, but because personal gain and desire would make it so that they would be willing to risk their careers for their family.

Return to Top
#941441 - 04/14/08 03:28 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Blade Scrapper
TheManofSteel Offline
10K Club
TheManofSteel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,068
Fortress of Solitude
Originally Posted By: Typ. White Persn
Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor


Either way, if it is truly torture, I'd agree, it has to be scrapped.


It pretty much has been scrapped. It was only used 3 times, and not since early 2003.


At least it was effective on Al Zawahari
_________________________
"Beneath an ever watchful eye...the angels of the temple fly"

Return to Top
#941444 - 04/14/08 03:30 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
TheManofSteel Offline
10K Club
TheManofSteel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,068
Fortress of Solitude
Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
If the situation was such that one of these attorney's in question had a child of their own in Mr. Logan's situation, would they have pulled this twisted application of ethics horsecrap? I highly doubt it.


So do I, however, not because they didn't believe in the application of legal ethics, but because personal gain and desire would make it so that they would be willing to risk their careers for their family.


You are likely correct BF, but they of course are not going to claim that.
_________________________
"Beneath an ever watchful eye...the angels of the temple fly"

Return to Top
#941469 - 04/14/08 03:53 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
straw Offline
Power Poster
straw
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,121
How many of you are ready to sacrifice your careers right now? For any reason?

Not an easy decision to make, believe me.

Return to Top
#941471 - 04/14/08 03:53 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
Yossarian Offline
Diamond Poster
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,436
Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
Bullsh!t argument on ethics


Would you feel this same way if it had been a priest that learned the information in a confession? That would be privileged in the same way. What would you think of a priest for withholding this type of information?


I would frown upon it just the same.


And would there be these personal attacks on the priest? Would you consider it "twisted" logic on the ethics of priest-penitent privilege?

Either some conversations are privileged from disclosure or they are not. This is obviously an extreme example of the cost of such privilege. But should there be no privileged conversations at all? Or only in difficult situations?

Return to Top
#941475 - 04/14/08 03:56 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal straw
B_F Offline
Power Poster
B_F
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,228
Cincinnati, OH
Originally Posted By: straw
How many of you are ready to sacrifice your careers right now? For any reason?

Not an easy decision to make, believe me.


For my family? I'd sacrifice my career in a heartbeat.

Return to Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2