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#941476 - 04/14/08 03:57 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal straw
B_F Offline
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Originally Posted By: straw
How many of you are ready to sacrifice your careers right now? For any reason?

Not an easy decision to make, believe me.


For my family? I'd sacrifice my career in a heartbeat.

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#941485 - 04/14/08 04:03 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
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Agreed regarding family. I think you hit it right on the head. But everyone is so quick to dismiss this as ethics BS.

When ethics become BS we have bigger problems than an innocent man sitting in prison.

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#941492 - 04/14/08 04:11 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Yossarian
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Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
[quote=Yossarian]
Quote:
Bullsh!t argument on ethics


Would you feel this same way if it had been a priest that learned the information in a confession? That would be privileged in the same way. What would you think of a priest for withholding this type of information?


I would frown upon it just the same.


Quote:
And would there be these personal attacks on the priest? Would you consider it "twisted" logic on the ethics of priest-penitent privilege?


Personal attacks have nothing to do with it. A human beings' life is the issue here. That must be the guiding principle, and in these lawyers' views, it was not. Human life is infinitely more sacred than the privilege between these lawyers and their client, and in the process of applying the privilege, a gross miscarraige of justice was done.

Quote:
Either some conversations are privileged from disclosure or they are not. This is obviously an extreme example of the cost of such privilege. But should there be no privileged conversations at all? Or only in difficult situations?


Certain situations call for a reconsideration of that privilege. The situtation in point is an inncoent human life. The Declaration of Independence did not state that we are endowed with Liberty, Life and the Pursuit of Happiness, it stated Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. The Liberty of privilege between the attorneys and their client was put before the Life of an innocent man. Not accpetable.
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#941495 - 04/14/08 04:14 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
How many of you are ready to sacrifice your careers right now? For any reason?

Not an easy decision to make, believe me.

Sacrificing family and career for any reason was not the issue though. Men supposedly dedicated to justice were not willing to take a risk of being disbarred to see an innocent man recieve the justice they believed he was being denied because they were not willing to take that risk. Risk of being disbarred vs. risks for any reason. I think that is much to broad an analogy Straw.
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#941500 - 04/14/08 04:19 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
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The one fact that has been overlooked so far is that if the two attorneys had disclosed what their client had said to them, it would not have been admissible because they violated the attorney-client priviledge. Did justice get served? No. Should there be exceptions allowed. Yes. However, under current rules, they had no choice but to remain silent. They had a pos client that apparently would not sign a confession himself so they drafted their own cya document.
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#941516 - 04/14/08 04:25 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
Originally Posted By: straw
How many of you are ready to sacrifice your careers right now? For any reason?

Not an easy decision to make, believe me.

Sacrificing family and career for any reason was not the issue though. Men supposedly dedicated to justice were not willing to take a risk of being disbarred to see an innocent man recieve the justice they believed he was being denied because they were not willing to take that risk. Risk of being disbarred vs. risks for any reason. I think that is much to broad an analogy Straw.


See bolded section and tell me again how their careers would not be sacrificed.

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#941534 - 04/14/08 04:38 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Gregk
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TWD, I dont' think they would have risked being disbarred, I think it is guaranteed that they would have been disbarred. The article says that the attorneys sought guidance from other attorneys as to whether they should disclose. Most states have an ethics hotline for attorneys to ask questions such as this and I would be surprised if they did not take advantage of this service and get the answer that they would be disbarred. These guys were not Johnny Cochran with millions of dollars, but public defenders who had committed themselves to defend the indigent while making a teacher's salary, so I don't buy the whole concept of them being sleazy attorneys willing to sacrifice an innocent man to advance their careers. For attorneys, the attorney-client privilege is one of the foundations on which our judicial system is built.

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#941540 - 04/14/08 04:46 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
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Quote:
Certain situations call for a reconsideration of that privilege.


I fully agree with this, and judging from the story, so do the lawyers involved. It says:

"Knowing the affidavit had to be secret, Wilson's lawyers looked for ways to help Logan without hurting their client. They consulted with legal scholars, ethics commissions, the bar association.
Kunz says he mentioned the case dozens of times over the years to lawyers, never divulging names but explaining that he knew a guy serving a life sentence for a crime committed by one of his clients.

There's nothing you can do, he was told."

In a situation like this the law should be changed to allow a lawyer, a priest or other person with privileged information to disclose somehow it to prevent this kind of situation from happening.

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#941621 - 04/14/08 06:18 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
Originally Posted By: straw
How many of you are ready to sacrifice your careers right now? For any reason?

Not an easy decision to make, believe me.

Sacrificing family and career for any reason was not the issue though. Men supposedly dedicated to justice were not willing to take a risk of being disbarred to see an innocent man recieve the justice they believed he was being denied because they were not willing to take that risk. Risk of being disbarred vs. risks for any reason. I think that is much to broad an analogy Straw.


See bolded section and tell me again how their careers would not be sacrificed.


Straw, I was not writing that they would not risk their careers, but rather,that they would not risk their careers for just any reason, but for an innocent man's life.

That said, enough has been pointed out here the posts just after your last one that they did try very hard within the law to get Anton Logan released.
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#941622 - 04/14/08 06:18 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal Yossarian
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Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
Certain situations call for a reconsideration of that privilege.


I fully agree with this, and judging from the story, so do the lawyers involved. It says:

"Knowing the affidavit had to be secret, Wilson's lawyers looked for ways to help Logan without hurting their client. They consulted with legal scholars, ethics commissions, the bar association.
Kunz says he mentioned the case dozens of times over the years to lawyers, never divulging names but explaining that he knew a guy serving a life sentence for a crime committed by one of his clients.

There's nothing you can do, he was told."

In a situation like this the law should be changed to allow a lawyer, a priest or other person with privileged information to disclose somehow it to prevent this kind of situation from happening.


I bolded your final point Yoss, and this I agree with.
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#941631 - 04/14/08 06:24 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
Originally Posted By: straw
How many of you are ready to sacrifice your careers right now? For any reason?

Not an easy decision to make, believe me.

Sacrificing family and career for any reason was not the issue though. Men supposedly dedicated to justice were not willing to take a risk of being disbarred to see an innocent man recieve the justice they believed he was being denied because they were not willing to take that risk. Risk of being disbarred vs. risks for any reason. I think that is much to broad an analogy Straw.


See bolded section and tell me again how their careers would not be sacrificed.


Straw, I was not writing that they would not risk their careers, but rather,that they would not risk their careers for just any reason, but for an innocent man's life.

That said, enough has benn pointed out here the posts just after your last one that they did try very hard within the law to get Anton Logan released.


Given their position, how many other lives can they save and/or protect if they continue to practice law as public defenders vs. the one person in jail for life they know is innocent but cannot legally help free?

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#941633 - 04/14/08 06:25 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
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Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
Certain situations call for a reconsideration of that privilege.



In a situation like this the law should be changed to allow a lawyer, a priest or other person with privileged information to disclose somehow it to prevent this kind of situation from happening.


I bolded your final point Yoss, and this I agree with.


Let me ask you this, if he didn't know his lawyer could not reveal it, do you think he would have given up the truth at all?

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#941639 - 04/14/08 06:29 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
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Who knows? It would only be speculation on my or anyone else's partm trying to get into the mind of the criminal on that point.
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#941646 - 04/14/08 06:35 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal TheManofSteel
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But, WitchDoctor, would you not agree that confidentiality is necessary for a lawyer, religious advisor, or banker to do his or her job?

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#941650 - 04/14/08 06:36 PM Re: Another Feather in the Cap of Anti-Death Penal B_F
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Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
But, WitchDoctor, would you not agree that confidentiality is necessary for a lawyer, religious advisor, or banker to do his or her job?

Yes. I was not painting with broad brush strokes. See my respnse to Yoss' last post above.
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