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#944345 - 04/17/08 04:47 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight rainman
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It's a great distraction, though.
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#944347 - 04/17/08 04:48 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight Blade Scrapper
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Yeah, we need more of those in the cooler.
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#944354 - 04/17/08 04:52 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight rainman
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Originally Posted By: rainman
So questions about regulating an M-16, M-60, or F-15 are not terribly relevant to this case.


In this case, no, however, FBH has said there should be no federal regulation at all.

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#944363 - 04/17/08 04:59 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight B_F
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FBH said:
Quote:
As for the type and concentration of firepower the people possess, that's up to a discipline, informed and enlightened populace; but the Right to bear arms by the people to defend the Republic and the Constitution themselves is paramount...


This statement is what is prompting the discussion on limits on the kinds of arms that can be owned.

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#944366 - 04/17/08 05:05 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight Hrothgar Geiger
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Seems like a discussion beteween the Jeffersonian and Hamiltonian views of the role of gov't. Of course it could be just us unwashed yokels clinging to our guns.
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#944474 - 04/17/08 06:04 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight Hrothgar Geiger
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Originally Posted By: AML-Barbarian
FBH said:
Quote:
As for the type and concentration of firepower the people possess, that's up to a discipline, informed and enlightened populace; but the Right to bear arms by the people to defend the Republic and the Constitution themselves is paramount...


This statement is what is prompting the discussion on limits on the kinds of arms that can be owned.


Not really. The purpose right now is to determine if they can own them. If they can, then it will be in the question. But great distraction though.
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#944697 - 04/17/08 07:26 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight Sound Tactic
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I hadn't really considered rockets/fighters/thermonuclear devices/wave-motion guns/photon torpedoes. But again, I believe the ultimate purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to deter tyranny both at home, and from foreign intervention. In my opinion, the government should fear an uprising from the people, it will remind them to follow the Constitution and work diligently to keep our Liberty intact.

I wouldn't know how to acquire rockets or larger ordinance, but as far as I'm concerned, if it can be held in one or both hands and fired, the government should keep their laws out of it. And for the record, I'm not a member of the NRA, and I bought and learned to shoot and maintain my first gun only 2 years ago.

My comment about stiffer penalties for crimes committed with guns follows libertarian ideals fairly well. I believe that everyone has the right to be secure in their life, liberty and property, and one should not intrude on another's right to life, liberty and property. Crimes (especially armed ones) against people or property infringe on Liberty, and should be punished accordingly.
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#944748 - 04/17/08 07:42 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight FBH
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Originally Posted By: FBH
In my opinion, the government should fear an uprising from the people, it will remind them to follow the Constitution and work diligently to keep our Liberty intact.

I wouldn't know how to acquire rockets or larger ordinance, but as far as I'm concerned, if it can be held in one or both hands and fired, the government should keep their laws out of it.


So you're ok with people owning weapons that can kill you from such a range that you can't defend yourself, so long as after they've sniped 10 to 12 innocent people, they go to jail or get put to death?

You're ok with kids getting ahold of automatic weapons, going into a school, and shooting an entire classroom of people, so long as their punished?

Me? I prefer controlled freedoms.

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#944758 - 04/17/08 07:48 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight B_F
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
Quote:
controlled freedoms.


oxymoron...and possible post of the week nominee
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#944762 - 04/17/08 07:51 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight FBH
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Originally Posted By: FBH
I believe that everyone has the right to be secure in their life, liberty and property, and one should not intrude on another's right to life, liberty and property. Crimes (especially armed ones) against people or property infringe on Liberty, and should be punished accordingly.


I wouldn't say I'm okay with it, but I'm also saying we have a right (some would say duty) as a free people to bear arms. There will always be people that will seek to take advantage of freedom to suppress others - should all be made to suffer for these hypothetical "others" that may do harm.

If someone is intent on a criminal act, a law against it is not going to deter them. Average citizens with an understanding of the rule of law and the social contract, will live with discipline and restraint, and not need a government to pass laws to tell them how they must act.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
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#944770 - 04/17/08 07:56 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight B_F
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Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan


Me? I prefer controlled freedoms.


Afraid you are going to have to explain this one
Last edited by straw; 04/17/08 08:03 PM.
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#944772 - 04/17/08 07:58 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
[quote=FBH]

Me? I prefer controlled freedoms.


Afraid you are going to have to explain this one


Don't link that commie quote to me!
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#944784 - 04/17/08 08:04 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight FBH
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sorry I fixed it

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#944789 - 04/17/08 08:08 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight HappyGilmore
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Originally Posted By: HappyGilmore
Quote:
controlled freedoms.


oxymoron...and possible post of the week nominee



Not at all. You're free to be armed, so long as you don't expect to be free to have a nuclear warhead. You're free to be armed, so long as you don't think setting up sandbags and an M-60 in your front yard is the thing to do. You're free to carry a handgun, but you can't take it to your 8th grade glass.

You have the freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean you can slander someone. Neither can you shout fire in a crowded theatre, or call in false bomb threats to the police.

You have the freedom to pursue your own religious beliefs, so long as those religious beliefs don't include breaking other federal laws.

You have the right to a speedy trial, but that doesn't mean we are going to have drivethrough courts without taking the time necessary to show all evidence.

There is no sane thing as complete liberty free of restriction, short of chaos and anarchy.

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#944801 - 04/17/08 08:20 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight B_F
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
gonna call BS on that one...freedom with restrictions isn't freedom, according to my good friend the dictionary...

Quote:
1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. the power to determine action without restraint.
4. political or national independence.
5. personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery: a slave who bought his freedom.
6. exemption from the presence of anything specified (usually fol. by from): freedom from fear.
7. the absence of or release from ties, obligations, etc.
8. ease or facility of movement or action: to enjoy the freedom of living in the country.
9. frankness of manner or speech.
10. general exemption or immunity: freedom from taxation.
11. the absence of ceremony or reserve.
12. a liberty taken.
13. a particular immunity or privilege enjoyed, as by a city or corporation: freedom to levy taxes.
14. civil liberty, as opposed to subjection to an arbitrary or despotic government.
15. the right to enjoy all the privileges or special rights of citizenship, membership, etc., in a community or the like.
16. the right to frequent, enjoy, or use at will: to have the freedom of a friend's library.
17. Philosophy. the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy; self-determination. Compare necessity (def.
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#944805 - 04/17/08 08:26 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight B_F
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Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Originally Posted By: HappyGilmore
Quote:
controlled freedoms.


oxymoron...and possible post of the week nominee



Not at all. You're free to be armed, so long as you don't expect to be free to have a nuclear warhead. You're free to be armed, so long as you don't think setting up sandbags and an M-60 in your front yard is the thing to do. You're free to carry a handgun, but you can't take it to your 8th grade glass.

You have the freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean you can slander someone. Neither can you shout fire in a crowded theatre, or call in false bomb threats to the police.

You have the freedom to pursue your own religious beliefs, so long as those religious beliefs don't include breaking other federal laws.

You have the right to a speedy trial, but that doesn't mean we are going to have drivethrough courts without taking the time necessary to show all evidence.

There is no sane thing as complete liberty free of restriction, short of chaos and anarchy.


I guess the question is where do the controls come from. The government or the people?

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#944824 - 04/17/08 08:51 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight straw
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I think what BF is trying to say, is that every right carries an equally significant and necessary responsibility to exercise that right. That being so, there are obviously some people who are not responsible enough to exercise certain of those rights in a free society, so it is necessary to place restrictions or controls as he calls them. An example is a mentally ill individual owning a firearm.

With respect to Straw's question about where do the controls come from, if the government is representative of the people, then the controls come from the people through the medium of their elected representatives. Think "no taxation without representation." At least, it sounds good on paper.
Last edited by TheChanginator; 04/17/08 08:52 PM.
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#944866 - 04/17/08 09:16 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight TheManofSteel
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Never thought I'd say this, but I agree with BF and Change's viewpoints on responsibility in regards to our individual freedoms.

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#945029 - 04/17/08 11:05 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight Imagine
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Oh heck. Let's freeze it solid. I agree with Neo agreeing with BF and Change. Did anyone else feel the earth move?

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#945037 - 04/17/08 11:14 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight Truffle Royale
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I did!

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#945040 - 04/17/08 11:16 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight Miscuit
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yeah, but did this political thread have anything to do with it? and do not answer, its rhetorical
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#945041 - 04/17/08 11:19 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight Pale Rider
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#945043 - 04/17/08 11:21 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight Miscuit
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Originally Posted By: Ms. Biscuit
I did!


Wiat 'till I get to Texas. More than the earth will move pal.
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#945046 - 04/17/08 11:25 PM Re: Obama in the Debate tonight TheManofSteel
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(that's what they all say)

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