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#947401 - 04/22/08 05:06 PM The means may be more important than the ends
Hrothgar Geiger Offline
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In the days following the London subway bombing, the FBI was following up a lead on an Egyptian student named Magdy el-Nashar who attended N.C. State prior to moving to the U.K. and attending the University of Leeds.

An agent obtained a grand jury subpoena and 'sealed court order' to request educational records from N.C. State. The University complied with the subpoena, and turned over the records.

On informing his office that the records were in hand, the agent was told that they weren't supposed to obtain the records via a grand jury subpoena, they were to have used a National Security Letter. Further,"The Director has requested a write up on the circumstances surrounding the NSL letter issued to [NC State] ... The Director would like to use this as an example tomorrow as to why we need administrative subpoenas to fight the war on terror. In particular, he would like to know how much extra time was spent having to get the Grand Jury subpoena."

The agent was directed to return the records to the University and obtain a National Security Letter.

Over the next couple of hours, the agent revised a template for an NSL requesting telephone record to instead seek several categories of records, including applications for admission, housing information, emergency contacts, and campus health records. The SAC signed the letter, and the agent served it at N.C. State.

Well, attempted to serve it. N.C. State refused the NSL citing 1)it requested information outside the permissible scope of NSLs, and 2)the SAC lacked the authority to sign the NSL.

The FBI field office then obtained a 2nd grand jury subpoena. with which the University complied.

Later that month, FBI Director Mueller testified before Congress that the FBI’s had been unable to obtain the information with a National Security Letter. He did not mention that the NSL exceeded the scope of the statutory authority, nor that the FBI had originally sought a subpoena and had records in hand before reversing course. Instead, he used the example to press for greater surveillance powers, testifying that the objections to the NSL "resulted in a two-day delay."

FBI notes, obtained via FOIA request.

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#947475 - 04/22/08 05:53 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends Hrothgar Geiger
straw Offline
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Can you provide where this info comes from, or did you obtain it on your own with your own FOIA request?

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#947477 - 04/22/08 05:55 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends straw
Hrothgar Geiger Offline
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Electronic Frontier Foundation, which you could have surmised from the URL

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#947545 - 04/22/08 06:40 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends Hrothgar Geiger
straw Offline
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Link was blocked here, which you might have surmised by my asking the question smart a$$.

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#947565 - 04/22/08 06:57 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends straw
Hrothgar Geiger Offline
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You can't even see the URL when the cursor's on it? That's some good blocking there.

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#947583 - 04/22/08 07:08 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends Hrothgar Geiger
straw Offline
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No I can't and when I click, I get my web filter saying unauthorized site. No URL available.

And since you have posted classified material before and have connections to the SEALS, I just wanted to ask if you obtained the material yourself. After all, if you had to kill someone for the info, credibility would be high.

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#947586 - 04/22/08 07:11 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends straw
Hrothgar Geiger Offline
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Now who's being a smart @$$?

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#947587 - 04/22/08 07:11 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends Hrothgar Geiger
straw Offline
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I am, but I like to think I am being more creative too.

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#947591 - 04/22/08 07:16 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends straw
Hrothgar Geiger Offline
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Well, of course you would.

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#947593 - 04/22/08 07:16 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends Hrothgar Geiger
straw Offline
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guess you don't appreciate my humor

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#947595 - 04/22/08 07:18 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends Hrothgar Geiger
Pale Rider Offline
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under the Lone Star
nothing comes up when moving the cursor over the link for me either - I like the FBI's initiative though - just saying......
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#947599 - 04/22/08 07:21 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends straw
Hated By Some Offline
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Originally Posted By: straw
guess you don't appreciate my humor

is that along the lines of accusing somebody of being unable to divide by zero?

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#947603 - 04/22/08 07:23 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends straw
Sound Tactic Offline
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Actually after reading the link it appears to me that Barabara did not read the FBI memo himself. Not only that, but it appears that he is either editorializing the events, or plagerizing it from elsewhere.

Not only that, but some of the information in Barbies post is not even found in his link. Is this how you audit Barbie?

Not only that, but the link says that it was the writers opinion that it "may" be a violation? Where do you come up with your garbage?
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#947605 - 04/22/08 07:23 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends Hated By Some
straw Offline
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Sure. Have you figured out yet if Reverand Wright is a racist.

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#947613 - 04/22/08 07:36 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends straw
Sound Tactic Offline
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Not only that but 1 hour after not wanting to release records he advised the FBI that the documents were waiting for them.

This was after the FBI told the rep at Univ that he was considered served.
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#947878 - 04/23/08 02:10 AM Re: The means may be more important than the ends Sound Tactic
HappyGilmore Offline
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
gee, after seeing everything blanked out, wonder how you can determine anything
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#947892 - 04/23/08 03:22 AM Re: The means may be more important than the ends HappyGilmore
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If the FBI's for it, I'm agin' it.

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#947933 - 04/23/08 12:39 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends Jokerman
kms Offline
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God Bless America
sorry I looked at the article and I am not buying that it is evenr real. There are specific ways to mark classified data, even secret data and that has not been done in this article
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#947971 - 04/23/08 01:15 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends kms
Hrothgar Geiger Offline
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...Because there is a single set of classification definitions and procedures in use across the intelligence community, armed forces, and law enforcement?

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#948005 - 04/23/08 01:41 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends Hrothgar Geiger
kms Offline
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in the intelligence community yes
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#948007 - 04/23/08 01:42 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends kms
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but would this FBI release be more along the lines of law enforcement or intelligence?

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#948009 - 04/23/08 01:44 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends Imagine
kms Offline
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God Bless America
intel since they are considered part of the intel community
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#948019 - 04/23/08 01:52 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends kms
Imagine Offline
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They are? Really?
I'm not trying to be snide, but I never would've of thought of them as being part of the intel community.

I know they servce as a domestic intelligence agency, but I always viewed them as a law enforcement agency, what with the DoJ connection and being responsible for over 200 categories of federal crimes.

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#948059 - 04/23/08 02:19 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends Imagine
kms Offline
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God Bless America
not since 9/11
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#948060 - 04/23/08 02:20 PM Re: The means may be more important than the ends kms
kms Offline
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God Bless America
i take that back, i could have worked with them prior to 9/11 as part of my intership
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