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#948106 - 04/23/08 02:52 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong MB Guy
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well, is the us somehow not a participant in the global demand/supply market?

what i meant was that we have alternatives that would impact the global energy supply. it is just a matter of adopting them. in other words, we can keep supply constant and simply lower overall demand (oil doesn't just get refined for energy for cars).

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#948107 - 04/23/08 02:52 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
why is it cheap? could it be ridiculously inappropriate subsidies? but to your point, if it is giving you crappy mileage, is it *really* cheaper? just because it is cheaper per gallon doesn't mean that it is cheaper.


So, you're against alternative fuels?

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#948111 - 04/23/08 02:54 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong B_F
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not at all. i am against thermodynamically-inefficient-though-politcally-desireable-to-midwestern-farmer alternative fuels.

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#948118 - 04/23/08 02:57 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
not at all. i am against thermodynamically-inefficient-though-politcally-desireable-to-midwestern-farmer alternative fuels.


Even if it is inefficient, is it not renewable, and thus in no danger of running out?

Is it not a cleaner burning fuel?

Does it not provide direct income to the United States economy?
Last edited by Bengalsfan; 04/23/08 03:01 PM.
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#948127 - 04/23/08 03:06 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
does it have an affect on our resources? should we wait until we run out to have to scurry to find new sources? aren't economic pressures from oil already pretty strong? gas sales were down 2-11% due to pricing issues in december.


And don't you think those pressures will lead to another cost effective energy source.

Or do you think we will return to the caves?

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#948129 - 04/23/08 03:08 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong B_F
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Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
not at all. i am against thermodynamically-inefficient-though-politcally-desireable-to-midwestern-farmer alternative fuels.


Even if it is inefficient, is it not renewable, and thus in no danger of running out?

Is it not a cleaner burning fuel?

Does it not provide direct income to the United States economy?


Actually, it is probably a leading inflation cause, since corn prices are through the roof, which lead to higher prices across many different food products.

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#948130 - 04/23/08 03:08 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong B_F
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Quote:
Even if it is inefficient, is it not renewable, and thus in no danger of running out?

...other than that, how was the play mrs. lincoln? can't we just answer the same questions with a more thermodynamically efficient alternative? would the other alternatives also be clean burning?

'providing direct income' to the united states is a pretty limited perspective. what about overall costs? what are the economic ramifications? should all of the land go to 'energy' production instead of food? i don't understand this fascination with the short term other than the fact that it is easier to conceptualize.

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#948134 - 04/23/08 03:11 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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Ok Mr. Long Term solutions, what is the answer to a more thermodynamically efficient alternative?

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#948135 - 04/23/08 03:11 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
Quote:
Even if it is inefficient, is it not renewable, and thus in no danger of running out?

...other than that, how was the play mrs. lincoln? can't we just answer the same questions with a more thermodynamically efficient alternative? would the other alternatives also be clean burning?

'providing direct income' to the united states is a pretty limited perspective. what about overall costs? what are the economic ramifications? should all of the land go to 'energy' production instead of food? i don't understand this fascination with the short term other than the fact that it is easier to conceptualize.


Using one alternative does not mean you abandon looking at other alternatives. Otherwise, you'd still be burning either wood or coal in your train instead of driving a car.

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#948160 - 04/23/08 03:31 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
Ok Mr. Long Term solutions, what is the answer to a more thermodynamically efficient alternative?

i am not an engineer.

i have suggested that there are more thermodynamically efficient sources as well as suggesting that there are ways to affect demand (wind, solar, geothermal, etc).

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#948164 - 04/23/08 03:33 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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You are not an engineer, then how do you know ethanol is inefficient?

Demand for alt fuels will increase as oil prices continue to increase.

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#948175 - 04/23/08 03:39 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong straw
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i am capable of reading the conclusions of engineers, straw.

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#948181 - 04/23/08 03:46 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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Yes, we all know you are capable of parroting back anything you have read, but digesting the information, analyzing it and forming your own opinions, well, I guess that's why you are still in school.

Perhaps you should read some more engineer's conclusions to see if they have any answers to the question I posed.

Hint: the answers are out there if you seek them out.

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#948194 - 04/23/08 03:55 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong straw
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what is there to analyze when you see conclusions regarding thermodynamics? :boggle:

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#948208 - 04/23/08 04:05 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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how did this thread get so far astray?

why are we not discussing the threat of global cooling? The impact is far greater and ever so immediate if we enter another mini ice age similar to the 600 years after 1100 a.d.
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#948209 - 04/23/08 04:06 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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My question was

what is the answer to a more thermodynamically efficient alternative?

Can you read some engineering publications and report back what those engineers think?

Thanks.

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#948260 - 04/23/08 04:51 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
i'm not a global warming enthusiast. i am an environmental enthusiast. i think al gore perhaps did a disservice to the environment by framing the issue around global warming.


I actually agree with Ronzilla!
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#948291 - 04/23/08 05:26 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong straw
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i guess i don't understand wtf your point is here, straw.do you deny that there are other sources of altrnative energy that are more thermodynamically efficient than corn ethanol?

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#948299 - 04/23/08 05:34 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
i guess i don't understand wtf your point is here, straw.do you deny that there are other sources of altrnative energy that are more thermodynamically efficient than corn ethanol?


I guess I don't understand you, Ron. Do you deny that it is better to have ANY completely renewable alternative fuel than NO other option than non-renewable resources?

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#948302 - 04/23/08 05:36 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong B_F
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#948322 - 04/23/08 05:57 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
Originally Posted By: straw
Ok Mr. Long Term solutions, what is the answer to a more thermodynamically efficient alternative?

i am not an engineer.

i have suggested that there are more thermodynamically efficient sources as well as suggesting that there are ways to affect demand (wind, solar, geothermal, etc).
Of course the environaziswackos conveniently forget probably the most efficient, least polluting energy source...nuclear energy.
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#948338 - 04/23/08 06:14 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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One ECOLOGIST, not a chemist, physicist, engineer, etc. says so, and you believe him. Gotcha.

More importantly, does it matter if creating the fuel uses more energy to create liquid fuel than the energy output? No. Why? Apples to Oranges. I'm sure it takes more energy to drill for oil and convert it to gas than you get from gas too. The question isn't is energy used to create a source of energy, it is can we run our vehicles and get from place to place using it!

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#948349 - 04/23/08 06:23 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
i guess i don't understand wtf your point is here, straw.do you deny that there are other sources of altrnative energy that are more thermodynamically efficient than corn ethanol?


I am asking you if you know any.

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#948351 - 04/23/08 06:25 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong FBH
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Originally Posted By: FBH
Considering we're coming to an end of a period of increased solar activity, global cooling is a distinct possibility. With that said, global cooling may be Earth's reaction to all the pollutants and greenhouse gases we're putting into the atmosphere. The system is balancing things out...


Yes, historically this has happened. Unfortunately, as a combat to your statement, it usually takes hundreds of years, not all at once.
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#948371 - 04/23/08 06:36 PM Re: Al Gore may have gotten it wrong MB Guy
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Originally Posted By: MB Guy
I
My fear is that the current "Washington - Big Business Machine" hampers the development of new sources of energy and I think we need to find a way to incentivize this and break the current cycle.

yeah man... and the black helicopters are circling over head right now...

::rips from the bong a la Ron, "oh my god i just turned my friends head into a bong," Mexico::

and like NAFTA is gonna create a super highway that parallels I35... and remove american sovreignty andcreate a unified currency called the AMero

::takes another bong hit a la Ron, "dude where's my car," Mexico::

and like.. the environment is like.... hot man.. like really hot and stuff
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