here is a little fair and balanced reporting eh Neo? -----



Delegate’s reversal stuns party

Wisconsin Democrat now publicly supports McCain

By CRAIG GILBERT
cgilbert@journalsentinel.com

Posted: June 14, 2008

Washington - As an avid supporter of Hillary Rodham Clinton in the Democratic primaries, Debra Bartoshevich is not alone in her frustration over Clinton's defeat.

She’s not alone in refusing to support Barack Obama.

And she’s not entirely alone in saying she’ll vote this fall for Republican John McCain instead.

But what makes her unusual is that she holds these views as an elected delegate to the Democratic National Convention in Denver this summer...............

My dad is a rabid democrat - has nothing good to say about Bush. He is going to vote for John McCain. He was all for Hillary.

Let me ask this.
And I'm serious.

If you're a rabid democrat and you voted for Hillary, HOW could you be for McCain?

The only assumption I can make is that you were never FOR Hillary, you were anti Barack.

And if you voted for Hillary based on issues, Barack would be the next best thing. John McCain's policies differ greatly from Hillary's.

I just don't get it.

Can someone try to explain the rationale to me?

Do you not yet realize, Neo, that a lot of people just plain don't trust Obama? And depending on which issues were important to you, McCain could be closer to what you want than ultra-leftist Obama.

BF:
So if you were a Democrat; who believed in ending the Iraq War, who wanted to prevent war with Iran, who wants to repeal the Bush tax cut, etc....why would you vote for McCain? Why vote against your interests?

And I'd like to know what issues McCain was closer to Hillary Clinton on than Obama was closer?

It is a question of trust for my dad - he really doesn't like McCain but he really distrusts Obama. He's even willing to vote republican for all senators and representatives just in case Obama wins the presidency - he doesn't want him to have a democratic congress.

Forget issues - trust is really bid for folks of his generation. He felt that Hillary would take care of us. He doesn't trust Obama to do that.

And face it, both Hillary and McCain are more moderates in their respective parties than extremists. Hillary was slammed early in her campaign by the democratic extremists for being too moderate - yet a moderate would have won the election in November.

Neo - what you fail to realize is that senator Obama is one of the most left-leaning senators EVER. And yet he tempers this history in his speeches in his presidential bid. He is telling people what he thinks they need to hear in order to get elected, and many people don't believe him (I believe the adage is that a toger doesn't change his stripes).

While you may believe everything he says as gospel truth, many people have looked past his words into his background, and the 2 don't reconcile themselves. And this is what scares people away from him. It is not because he is black (there are a percentage of voters who won't vote for him because he is black, just as there are a percentage of voters who will vote for him because he is black), it is because he is too stepford.

What I am finding very interesting is the number of prominent democratic columnists and radio hosts that are speaking out against Obama. He truly has the ability to gather or repel voters. There does not seem to be a middle ground with him.

If I were a democrat, I'd see it this way...

IRAQ:

Obama - simply set a timetable and begin to withdraw immediately.

Clinton - Convene Joint Chiefs of Staff, Secretary of Defense, and National Security Council and come up with a PLAN to withdraw our troops.

McCain - Ensure long term success.

At least Clinton plans to consult military leaders, unlike Obama who makes an empty promise to simply withdraw. Why is it empty? Because you can't just withdraw without a plan.

Taxes:

McCain - Intelligently formulated tax cuts to stimulate the economy, encourage entreprenureal thinking, and encourage higher growth.

Obama - Tax cuts for the poor and REVERSE tax cuts for everyone else.

Clinton - reduced taxes for the poor, RESCIND tax cuts for those making more than $250,000 a year, Tax cuts for the middle class.

At least Clinton stated that the top limit is going to be $250,000 a year. Obama has been VERY vague in what is considered to be worthy of lower taxes.

Abortion

McCain - Abortion is not simply a choice.

Clinton - Abortion is a choice, HOWEVER, by supporting adoption and foster care, we can reduce the number of abortions and make the right choice clearer.

Obama - Abortion is a woman's right, period.

I'd go with Clinton's answer on this one over Obama's. At least she recognizes the sanctity of life regarding abortion.

Foreign PolicY:

McCain - Diplomacy is one thing, but not just anyone gets to meet with the President.

Obama - I'll meet with the leaders of Cuba, Iran, Terrorist Organizations, whatever. Diplomatic meetings with our President are for anyone.

Clinton - Diplomacy, yes. Presidential meetings with Iran/Cuba? No.

Well-laid out BF. Not sure if it all completely accurate, but definitely well-laid out.

I just went to Obama's website and Hillaries and in about three minutes found a few critical differences.

I just don't believe it's Obama's time - there is something about him that I just don't trust. He might be the perfect president and we all don't believe it right now- but something just doesn't click with me on supporting him.

You hit the biggest nail on the head. There's something about Obama people don't trust. Maybe it's the fact that he's made so many comments that he's had to backtrack on. Maybe it's the fact that he appeared out of nowhere, and has no real experience. Maybe it's the people he calls his advisors, or the wife who was only proud to be an American recently.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/14/mccain-its-tough-in-some_n_107163.html

Don't you think there is a double standard?

The Democrats are going to strip her of her credentials at the convention.

Wis. Democrats move to dump delegate over McCain support
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/W...EMPLATE=DEFAULT

That's the American way!

There's a big difference between "sometimes it's tough to be proud of America" and "For the FIRST TIME I'm proud to be an American."

Me? I was proud to be an American by age 6. I stayed proud to be an American even through the Carter administration, and I was damned proud to be an American when Ronald Reagan was in office. But ANYONE who was not proud to be an American when our nation united after 9/11 to band together and support the families of those who were lost, and to search for survivors at Ground Zero, and to rebuild what was lost, needs to think about things. Michelle Obama, according to her own words was not proud to be an American during that crisis.

For goodness sake! I am proud to be an American- and always will be until the day I die!

Our country has problems and I hope we can fix them but not to love the US of A....well that's a shame.

Up to the last couple of weeks, I have truly been on the fence about who to vote for. I have generally considered myself to be more conservative in my views and voting, and often will vote with my pocketbook as I normally feel stongly for self accountability, and doing for yourself instead of others doing for you.

But at this point, watching the recent cooler posts from our some more 'vocal' conservative coolies, if these are the people hanging their hats with McCain, I may be voting for Obama. I voted for Bush in the last two elections.

Several of the recent postings and attitudes expressed within these threads are attitudes and comments that are downright embarrassing me when I read what they have to say. I do not feel Obama is the right person for the job, but to resort to the hateful and downright misleading and demeaning remarks disgusts me. This is supposed to be a party of conservative values and fiscal responsibility, the latter of the two they have already clearly done away with. All I feel I am hearing from the party these days is a desperation, desperation reeking of hate and the continued emphasis on words and statements that are blown into something that most rational people realize they do not mean.

If they represent the face of today's Republican party and candidates, then I want no part of it. They may have cost McCain my vote.

LMBO! YOu don't think Obama's right for the job, but you'll give it to him because other people don't like him? Jay, you really shouldn't be allowed to vote.

But that is the beauty of our system BF, we get to choose, and if it doesn't work out so hot, we get to change our minds! Are you tell me that you are voting in support of MaCain because all he stands for? I doubt that as I think you are voting McCain only becasue he is the Republican nominee... you are supporting the party and not the candidate.

At this point, I am willing to give something different a try. Worst case scenario, I can change my mind and vote differently in two and four years from now. No major changing legisation will ever take place in the first two years of any presidential term anyways.

And another thing BF, its not about people "not liking" him or others, but the fact that MaCain is not the candidate I once thought he was, and the way you and a few others talk so passionately(?) and hatefuly against the big O, that is turing me away from the party. The tones of hate and disgust I read and take away from the posts is what it turning me away from Mccain.

When I read posts like yours and a few others, I am embarrassed to stand with you and call myself a conservative. I like to think I am more open minded, civil and tolerant than that.

What hate are you talking about JJ?

All I have read on here are legitimate concerns about his experience (or lack of, more appropriately), his constant need to restate what he originally said because it "wasn't what he meant," that he has plans talk to terrorists and dictators w/o requesting some kind of reasonable concession (which is pretty much what every president of the past has done), that he has the furthest left voting record of any congressional member, etc.

What "hate" speak are you talking about?

Actually, I'll be voting for McCain because he's not Obama. McCain is by no means the BEST candidate out there for President. He's just the best candidate RUNNING.

Frankly, I see McCain as less of a Republican and more of a crossover candidate. I am by no means supporting him simply because he is a Republican. Why? Because I'm an independent. I vote for the candidate I think is best. Currently, it's a Republican. I've voted for Democratic candidates in the past (though not in a recent Presidential Election because of the poor choices).

As far as your thinking that no major changing legislation will ever take place in the first two years of a presidential term, you're misguided. IF Obama becomes President AND has the Legislature stocked as it is with Democrats who will support him, there will be no holding back his ultra-liberal agenda.

dont blame me, i voted for Ron Paul

There are not enough ultra-liberals to assist him. Heck, the variety of dems in control now are too varied for them to actually get together and agree on anything the way it is. In order to pick up healthy majorities in both houses, it will be made on the backs of very moderate democrats being brought in, those who are not going to risk their new seat in the first term or two to some widely devisive sweeping reforms/changes. They will want to get re-elected.

And McCain will have just as much gridlock if not more... republicans will not support him working with the democrats and leave him out to dry, and not enough democrats will trust him, or feel he is coming left of center enough to appease them.

I disagree. I believe McCain has proven time and time again that he can lead a bi-partisan congress.