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#983618 - 06/27/08 11:55 AM I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy...
FBH Offline
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I was online last night reading a little history when I came across this quote:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

This was written over 100 years ago by Alexander Tytler. He wasn't writing about the United States. This quote is about the fall of the Athenian Republic. See any parallels?

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Some guy smarter than me wrote that once...

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#983621 - 06/27/08 11:57 AM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... FBH
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#983632 - 06/27/08 12:16 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... Retired DQ
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the dictator of hope is on his way..................
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#983639 - 06/27/08 12:23 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... Pale Rider
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maybe now IS the time for Obama - McCain is past his prime. Maybe in 4 years a better republican candidate will run and win and Obama will be another Jimmy Carter - a failed presidency whose time is past and doomed to a 1 term presidency.
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#983641 - 06/27/08 12:25 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... Snow Bunny
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the second term of Jimmy Carter!!!!!

will my mortgage go back to 15%

I feel a malaise coming on.....................
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#983643 - 06/27/08 12:30 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... Pale Rider
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You need to have a fixed rate mortgage PR - I'm sure someone in your office can help you with that, if not, we have lots of nice friendly loan officers who will be more than willing to help you!

And if the mortgage rate goes to 15%, the savings rate will be close behind
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#983658 - 06/27/08 12:57 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... Snow Bunny
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the old folks will love double digit CD rates!!!!
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#983683 - 06/27/08 01:13 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... FBH
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This is why I believe X should be supreme ruler of America.
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#983695 - 06/27/08 01:24 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... Peepers
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As opposed to O being the supreme ruler?
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#983704 - 06/27/08 01:28 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... Snow Bunny
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Wonderful quote.

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#983728 - 06/27/08 01:44 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... FBH
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Originally Posted By: FBH
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury...

Hen, have you read PJ O'Rourke's Parliament of Whores?

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#983823 - 06/27/08 02:34 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... FBH
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Originally Posted By: FBH
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government.

That's an easy observation. What form of government has the world ever seen that has been "permanent?"

Quote:
...with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."[/i]

Can anyone provide any legitimate modern examples of this happening? I mean *real* examples that have followed these steps to the abyss?

Quote:
This was written over 100 years ago by Alexander Tytler. He wasn't writing about the United States. This quote is about the fall of the Athenian Republic. See any parallels?

Sure, I see parallels, but I call "BS" on Mr. Tytler's thoughts because they don't mean anything.

Quote:
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

But those who think they understand history, and don't, are just as doomed. (I said that one.)
Last edited by Bugs Bunny; 06/27/08 02:39 PM.
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#983861 - 06/27/08 03:00 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... FBH
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Quote:
It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury


Quote:
See any parallels?


Sure, tax cuts paid for by increasing deficits, stimulus checks that increase the deficits...

I don't buy the idea that it's irreversable though. We balanced the budget before after a binge of deficits, and we can do it again.

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#983867 - 06/27/08 03:05 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... Yossarian
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I'm hopeful for America, but the signs today are not encouraging, and I don't think our current politicians have the stones to do what I think is needed...We'll see.
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#984006 - 06/27/08 04:25 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... FBH
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Defecits are irrelevant to the problem, Yoss - it's the scope and volume of spending that matters, not how it's financed. You take money out of the productive economy and give it to the unproductive government whether you access the capital markets or taxpayer wallets.

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#984053 - 06/27/08 04:42 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... Jokerman
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Nonsense. Giving out money to taxpayers in the form of tax cuts or stimulus checks when running deficits is just as much an example of "vot[ing] themselves money from the public treasury" as giving out benefits. And deficits do factor in, if you are running surpluses and give out money it can be seen as returning what was paid in. When you are BORROWING the money to give out, it is not.

At some point we have to be fiscally responsible again, and that means on both receipts and expenditures.

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#984064 - 06/27/08 04:46 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... Yossarian
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So, wait, you're opposed to giving people back money that they haven't paid in?! Welcome to the conservative side of the isle, Yoss! Good to have you! Let's get started on that EIC.

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#984228 - 06/27/08 06:10 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... FBH
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Originally Posted By: FBH
I'm hopeful for America, but the signs today are not encouraging, and I don't think our current politicians have the stones to do what I think is needed...We'll see.

I'm sorry, but I get so irritated with comments about the "decline of America." America is doing OK.

I've heard these kinds of comments my entire life and I've become conviced that people use them to push their own particular agendas. America is living thing. It grows, it shrinks, it evolves, it bulges.

I just wish we'd all get over this "we're either advancing or we're retreating" viewpoints. It divides rather than unites.
Last edited by Bugs Bunny; 06/27/08 06:11 PM.
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#984256 - 06/27/08 06:27 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... Jokerman
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Quote:
Welcome to the conservative side of the isle,


Sorry, but since 1980 the conservative side of the aisle has gone away from fiscal responsibility for the sake of the "all tax cuts, all the time" mantra. This "free lunch" of driving up deficits and letting future generations pay the bill only lasts so long. Then someone has to be an adult and say "no more".

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#984267 - 06/27/08 06:41 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... buggs
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Originally Posted By: Bugs Bunny
Originally Posted By: FBH
I'm hopeful for America, but the signs today are not encouraging, and I don't think our current politicians have the stones to do what I think is needed...We'll see.

I'm sorry, but I get so irritated with comments about the "decline of America." America is doing OK.

I've heard these kinds of comments my entire life and I've become conviced that people use them to push their own particular agendas. America is living thing. It grows, it shrinks, it evolves, it bulges.

I just wish we'd all get over this "we're either advancing or we're retreating" viewpoints. It divides rather than unites.


I don't believe I'm saying this.....but I agree with Bugs.......
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#984271 - 06/27/08 06:47 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... buggs
FBH Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bugs Bunny
Originally Posted By: FBH
I'm hopeful for America, but the signs today are not encouraging, and I don't think our current politicians have the stones to do what I think is needed...We'll see.

I'm sorry, but I get so irritated with comments about the "decline of America." America is doing OK.

I've heard these kinds of comments my entire life and I've become conviced that people use them to push their own particular agendas. America is living thing. It grows, it shrinks, it evolves, it bulges.

I just wish we'd all get over this "we're either advancing or we're retreating" viewpoints. It divides rather than unites.


Okay, America is "evolving" into a socialist nanny state. 20% of the US population works for some form of government organization, which essentially means the 80% in the private sector work to support those 20%, the the incomes of government workers come exclusively from the private sector. This doesn't include the people living on welfare and other subsistence programs.

We don't need bigger government, regulation, or higher taxes. If anything the US Government needs radical restructuring, downsizing, and in some cases, outright elimination. There are very few enterprises initiated by the government that couldn't have been done better and cheaper by the private sector.
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#984288 - 06/27/08 07:00 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... FBH
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Quote:
20% of the US population works for some form of government organization, which essentially means the 80% in the private sector work to support those 20%


Somehow I think that those servicemen and servicewomen, police, fire fighters, air traffic controllers, judges, prosecutors, prison guards and all the rest would disagree with the idea that they are being "supported". You and I, and those government workers as well, pay for the services and benefits that come with living in the US by paying our taxes.

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#984298 - 06/27/08 07:05 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... FBH
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Originally Posted By: FBH
Originally Posted By: Bugs Bunny
Originally Posted By: FBH
I'm hopeful for America, but the signs today are not encouraging, and I don't think our current politicians have the stones to do what I think is needed...We'll see.

I'm sorry, but I get so irritated with comments about the "decline of America." America is doing OK.

I've heard these kinds of comments my entire life and I've become conviced that people use them to push their own particular agendas. America is living thing. It grows, it shrinks, it evolves, it bulges.

I just wish we'd all get over this "we're either advancing or we're retreating" viewpoints. It divides rather than unites.


Okay, America is "evolving" into a socialist nanny state. 20% of the US population works for some form of government organization, which essentially means the 80% in the private sector work to support those 20%, the the incomes of government workers come exclusively from the private sector. This doesn't include the people living on welfare and other subsistence programs.

We don't need bigger government, regulation, or higher taxes. If anything the US Government needs radical restructuring, downsizing, and in some cases, outright elimination. There are very few enterprises initiated by the government that couldn't have been done better and cheaper by the private sector.


Totally agree. Unfortunately neither party really promises this. On the one side you have Republicans which have lost their way. On the other side you have Democrats thta embrace your vision of America's current state.
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#984306 - 06/27/08 07:11 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... FBH
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Originally Posted By: FBH
We don't need bigger government, regulation, or higher taxes. If anything the US Government needs radical restructuring, downsizing, and in some cases, outright elimination. There are very few enterprises initiated by the government that couldn't have been done better and cheaper by the private sector.

I guess I'm not being clear enough. I didn't say we need a bigger government. And I did agree there are things that can be improved.

What I am objecting to is people trying to justify and build support for thier arguments by raising some subjective alarm that "America heading down the tubes." If the ideas have merit, then let's discuss them on those, but let's not try to scare people into coming over to our side by bullying them into a position where they are either "for or against" America.

Am I making more sense now?

I remember what it was like in the '70s after Vietnam and I see the nation slipping back into this mode again. We need to wake up and find our common ground instead of focusing so much on our differences. That is the real danger for America.
Last edited by Bugs Bunny; 06/27/08 07:13 PM.
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#984312 - 06/27/08 07:16 PM Re: I'm feeling political, quotey, and preachy... Yossarian
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Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
Welcome to the conservative side of the isle,

Sorry, but since 1980 the conservative side of the aisle has gone away from fiscal responsibility for the sake of the "all tax cuts, all the time" mantra. This "free lunch" of driving up deficits and letting future generations pay the bill only lasts so long. Then someone has to be an adult and say "no more".

Gee, Yoss, since the 1980's, has spending grown while revenues dropped? Has spending held stead while revenues dropped? Or has spending grown explosively, while revenues grew slightly less? Hmm... if only this data were available so that we could learn the truth...

click me!!!

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