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#999339 - 07/18/08 06:48 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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Quote:
If the first part is a catchall, why would they even write anything beyond it?

who the **** said it was other than you trying to put an arguyment that i didn't make into my mouth?! my God man!

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#999343 - 07/18/08 06:51 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet Hated By Some
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"Quote:
Now that I have answered your question

just because you told somebody in your office doesn't mean that i can hear it

Originally Posted By: Citizen McCain
straw, you need to answer first. you said you did but you didn't. i'll wait.

how about the one to my questions. that's always the first place i look when figuring out what to answer. "


Works both ways Ron.

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#999345 - 07/18/08 06:51 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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If Congress can enact laws for anything in furtherance of the general welfare, why did they write anything about specific powers?

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#999348 - 07/18/08 06:52 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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straw, please use the power in this website's navigation and heal thineself.

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#999353 - 07/18/08 06:53 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
If Congress can enact laws for anything in furtherance of the general welfare, why did they write anything about specific powers?

they can SPEND on the general welfare. the other enumerated things are for creating rules/laws, etc!

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#999354 - 07/18/08 06:54 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet Hated By Some
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If Congress can enact laws for anything in furtherance of the general welfare, why did they write anything about specific powers?

So you can reject my answers but I cannot reject yours. But you are not an elitist snob? Got it. Try again Mr. two bar licenses.

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#999356 - 07/18/08 06:54 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Citizen McCain
Originally Posted By: straw
If Congress can enact laws for anything in furtherance of the general welfare, why did they write anything about specific powers?

they can SPEND on the general welfare. the other enumerated things are for creating rules/laws, etc!


Wow, spending is not tied to laws/rules? Congress doesn't pass laws to spend. You heard it here first folks.

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#999361 - 07/18/08 06:56 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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Quote:
If Congress can enact laws TO SPEND ON the general welfare, why did they write anything about specific powers?

fixed

Quote:
Try again Mr. two bar licenses.

i was called a wannabe lawyer. i said that i had 2 forms of proof that there is no wannabe involved.

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#999364 - 07/18/08 07:00 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: Citizen McCain
Originally Posted By: straw
If Congress can enact laws for anything in furtherance of the general welfare, why did they write anything about specific powers?

they can SPEND on the general welfare. the other enumerated things are for creating rules/laws, etc!


Wow, spending is not tied to laws/rules? Congress doesn't pass laws to spend. You heard it here first folks.

what other mechanic would allow 435 + 100 people agree on what they are going to spend on?

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#999367 - 07/18/08 07:01 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet Hated By Some
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If they meant to spend on common defense and general welfare, why did they need to add these specific powers? Seems these powers would fit neatly under spending for the common defense, would they not?

"To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy; "

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#999370 - 07/18/08 07:01 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Citizen McCain
Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: Citizen McCain
Originally Posted By: straw
If Congress can enact laws for anything in furtherance of the general welfare, why did they write anything about specific powers?

they can SPEND on the general welfare. the other enumerated things are for creating rules/laws, etc!


Wow, spending is not tied to laws/rules? Congress doesn't pass laws to spend. You heard it here first folks.

what other mechanic would allow 435 + 100 people agree on what they are going to spend on?


Have you ever heard of an apporpriation bill?

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#999388 - 07/18/08 07:09 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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Originally Posted By: straw
If they meant to spend on common defense and general welfare, why did they need to add these specific powers? Seems these powers would fit neatly under spending for the common defense, would they not?

"To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy; "

clearly the defense half of the conjunction is the most troublesome. one could argue that this spending for defense might mean just giving the people muskets if they so choose.

but either way, for the non-defense things, those are rules clearly aren't something that you "spend" for.

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#999391 - 07/18/08 07:10 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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Quote:
Have you ever heard of an apporpriation bill?

i haven't read the linked bill but my guess is that this law includes things touching other constitutional powers like commerce clause, etc.

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#999413 - 07/18/08 07:19 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Citizen McCain
Originally Posted By: straw
If they meant to spend on common defense and general welfare, why did they need to add these specific powers? Seems these powers would fit neatly under spending for the common defense, would they not?

"To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy; "



clearly the defense half of the conjunction is the most troublesome. one could argue that this spending for defense might mean just giving the people muskets if they so choose.

but either way, for the non-defense things, those are rules clearly aren't something that you "spend" for.



So despite the anomaly, you are sure that the framers meant spending for the general welfare was not limited to the enumerated powers?

And this makes perfect sense to you?

And regarding providing muskets as spending for the common defense, why would the framers further add these clauses:

"To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"

Last edited by straw; 07/18/08 07:22 PM.
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#999440 - 07/18/08 07:27 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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one possible answer to the anomaly is that defense in that historic sense meant militias but the other clauses establish national defense entities. section 8 seems to say that spending on both militias and federal armies/navies can be funded through federal taxation.


To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;"

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#999444 - 07/18/08 07:29 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet Hated By Some
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So what you are saying is that without those clauses, Congress would be allowed to spend on common defense, but not be allowed to fund armies/navies/militias.

Does that make sense? Regarding militias, see my prior post. There are specific enumerations regarding militias as well.
Last edited by straw; 07/18/08 07:30 PM.
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#999456 - 07/18/08 07:37 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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look at the use of the word "provide" here:

"To provide for calling forth the militia..."

does that mean it will take a spending of those tax $$$ to call them forth or does provision seem to mean make laws regarding them? same thing with the army and navy clauses.

straw, you know that this is among the most debated items in all of constitutional jurisprudence. clearly it wouldn't be if there wasn't merit to both arguments. fwiw from a practical angle, our country would simply fold if we tried reverse course.

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#999457 - 07/18/08 07:39 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet Hated By Some
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So in the first paragraph, provide means spend, but in the later paragraphs, provide means make laws and you think the framers meant to use the same word in two different ways in the same clause?

And no our country would not fold, it would require a system of federalism as our country was originally intended to function.

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#999461 - 07/18/08 07:44 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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touche! i didn't catch that "provide"!

perhaps is a better answer is in the history of why they decided to include the specific branch clauses. either way, as far as general welfare and the rest of the clauses go, they really don't refer to things that you can really "spend" on.

straw, the 1860s had a lot to do with how federalism is viewed fwiw. i'd rather keep the debates academic. who is truly being hurt here? the rest of the constitution is protecting the people.

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#999467 - 07/18/08 07:47 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet Hated By Some
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"We the people" are being hurt by this illogical, inconsistent and inane interpretation that transfers unlimited power to the federal government.

Not how the social contract was created.

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#999486 - 07/18/08 07:55 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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straw, i'm not going to agree with you on that point. certainly there are as many framers who shared my view as there are framers who shared yours.

how are we really "hurt" though?

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#999493 - 07/18/08 08:01 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Citizen McCain
straw, i'm not going to agree with you on that point. certainly there are as many framers who shared my view as there are framers who shared yours.

how are we really "hurt" though?


Name a framer who shares your view. And I didn't realize one had to be hurt to assert a Constitutional view.

Congress oversteps its originally intended bounds every day. Congress is more remote, less accountable to local interests and that is why they were not meant too, and were even feared from being involved in local issues.

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#999499 - 07/18/08 08:08 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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hamilton

you're the one who said hurt, not me.

Quote:
Congress is more remote, less accountable to local interests

is this really attributable to a broad constitution?

fwiw, anything that the general welfare clause would be ineffective for, the commerce clause has been and is a proxy for. the power in the people is in voting for their elected officials. we don't vote for people who are going to screw us. sure, we may disagree with philosophies, but i truly believe that they take their job seriously.

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#999507 - 07/18/08 08:12 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet straw
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why do challenges on the spending clause not go your way? is it activist judges? are the cases not granted cert?

in the abstract, i think that it is perfectly acceptable for the tax and spend clause to work the way that it currently does. i can vote out those that do it poorly.

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#999509 - 07/18/08 08:15 PM Re: Obama Is God, Ron Is His Prophet Hated By Some
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Originally Posted By: Citizen McCain
hamilton

you're the one who said hurt, not me.

Quote:
Congress is more remote, less accountable to local interests

is this really attributable to a broad constitution?

fwiw, anything that the general welfare clause would be ineffective for, the commerce clause has been and is a proxy for. the power in the people is in voting for their elected officials. we don't vote for people who are going to screw us. sure, we may disagree with philosophies, but i truly believe that they take their job seriously.


vote all you want Ron. The checks and balances were skewed long ago, early on in Constitutional history, when the judiciary appropriated powers never intended for it by the founders. The SCOTUS holds an imbalalnced proportion of the power relative to the congress and admin.
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