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#488675 - 01/25/06 09:16 PM Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,332
WOOHOO
Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline

Survey finds 52% majority favor abortion in most circumstances, down markedly from 1990s; Stark partisan split remains

As the nation marks the 33rd anniversary of the landmark 1973 U.S. Supreme Court case Roe v. Wade that established abortion rights across America, a slight majority believes abortion should be always be available, or should be available without government financing, a new Zogby Interactive poll shows.

The survey shows that 52% favor abortion, including 10% who saying they believe it should be available, but that the government should not pay for it.

Forty-three percent oppose abortion, though most of those believe there should be exceptions in the cases of rape, incest, or when the pregnancy posed a grave threat to the life of the mother. A total of 9% said they “always oppose” abortion.

Snip....... ZogbyNews
_______

Yesterday, 4,000 babies were aborted in the USA. Zogby used a sonogram and asked the babies how many of them wanted the abortion to be performed. The results stunned zogby. 100% of the pre-aborted babies did NOT approve of the murder that was about to occur. Zogby said that there was a problem with the sample and it was not representative of the general population. He promised not to skew this sample in future polls.

Among Republicans, 77% said that “abortion destroys a human life and is manslaughter,” while 13% disagreed with that statement. Among Democrats, 15% believe that abortion destroys a human life and is manslaughter, and 70% disagreed.

Remember this, the next time someone says there's no real difference between the 2 parties.

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#488676 - 01/25/06 09:21 PM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Anonymous
Unregistered

More regurgitation from the man who can't think for himself.

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#488677 - 01/25/06 09:30 PM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Jokerman Offline
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
Pro-life individuals are more likely to have children (and in larger numbers) - this has been called the "Roe Effect" and is believed by some to guarantee that, over time, abortion will, as a natural consequence of itself, change Americans' views (the views of those remaining, anyway) about abortion. (Obviously, some children of pro-life families will disagree with their parents, and some children of pro-abortion-rights families will disagree with theirs, but on the whole, you would expect people to generally be influenced in such matters by how they are raised.)

Discuss.

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#488678 - 01/25/06 09:34 PM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
rainman Offline
Power Poster
rainman
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,237
Zogby clearly wasn't polling in the office where I work.
_________________________
Nobody's perfect, not even a perfect stranger.

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#488679 - 01/25/06 10:02 PM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Jay Bruce Offline
Platinum Poster
Jay Bruce
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 546
The New Loft Chamber
Wouldn't the debate be interesting if medical science progressed to the point where an embryo was "viable" outside the mother's womb immediately after conception. Under the Roe v. Wade opinion (portions quoted below), the state would then have a compelling interest in protecting the life of the unborn, including restricting abortion.

I remember in Law School going to a forum where the professor posed the question to a woman who favored unrestricted abortion rights. The question, essentially, was: what if the same "procedure" that is used to abort the fetus could be used to remove the fetus without killing it so it could live outside the birth mother's womb? The woman maintained that removing the fetus so that it could live was still a violation of her right to choose.

For what it's worth, here are pertinent parts of the Roe v. Wade decision:

"...appellant and some amici argue that the woman's right is absolute and that she is entitled to terminate her pregnancy at whatever time, in whatever way, and for whatever reason she alone chooses. With this we do not agree. Appellant's arguments that Texas either has no valid interest at all in regulating the abortion decision, or no interest strong enough to support any limitation upon the woman's sole determination, are unpersuasive. The Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life. At some point in pregnancy, these respective interests become sufficiently compelling to sustain regulation of the factors that govern the abortion decision. The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute. In fact, it is not clear to us that the claim asserted by some amici that one has an unlimited right to do with one's body as one pleases bears a close relationship to the right of privacy previously articulated in the Court's decisions. The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past...We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation.
* * *
The pregnant woman cannot be isolated in her privacy. She carries an embryo and, later, a fetus, if one accepts the medical definitions of the developing young in the human uterus...As we have intimated above, it is reasonable and appropriate for a State to decide that at some point in time another interest, that of health of the mother or that of potential human life, becomes significantly involved. The woman's privacy is no longer sole and any right of privacy she possesses must be measured accordingly.
* * *
With respect to the State's important and legitimate interest in potential life, the "compelling" point is at viability. This is so because the fetus then presumably has the capability of meaningful life outside the mother's womb. State regulation protective of fetal life after viability thus has both logical and biological justifications. If the State is interested in protecting fetal life after viability, it may go so far as to proscribe abortion during that period, except when it is necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother."
_________________________
J. Bruce

"A man in a kilt is a man and a half!"

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#488680 - 01/25/06 10:11 PM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
zaibatsu Offline
Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
I heard about an interesting group the other day. They are trying to get ultrasound machines into as many crisis pregnancy centers as possible. The group said that 70% of women who had considered an abortion, decide not to do so after counseling. They said that the number goes up to 90% after an ultrasound. The news agency that reported this said that they had not verified these numbers, but a center had reported that 50-75% of abortion-minded women changed their minds after an ultrasound.
_________________________
Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city

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#488681 - 01/25/06 10:45 PM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
°X° Offline
Power Poster
°X°
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,332
WOOHOO
DELIVER ME


Intro:
||: F / / / | Bb9 / / / | Dm9 / / / | Bb / C / :||

Verse I:
| F2 F2/E F2/D F2/C | Bb / C / |
I can’t talk, I can’t cry, will you please speak for me?

| F2 F2/E F2/D F22/C | Bb / C / |
I want a chance to live my life. Will you deliver me?

| F / C / | Dm C Bb9 / |
It’s my life it’s not yours. Don’t believe the lies.

| F / Gsus4 G | Csus4 C |
Who can judge what my life will be?

| Dm7 / Bb9 / | Csus4 C C2 C |
I just want a chance to see…

Chorus I:
| F / C/E / | Dm C Bb / |
Will I be rich, will I be famous, or just a simple man?

| F / C / | Gm / Csus4 C |
Will I comfort those in need? To know this I will plead…

Refrain:
| F / Bb2 / | Dm / C / |
Keep me safe, keep me warm Protect me from the storm

| F / Bb2 / | Dm / C / |
Let me live, I want to live I beg you to choose life

Transition:
| F / / / | Bb9 / / / | Dm9 / / / | Bb / C / | C(no 3rd) / |

Verse II:
|| C2 C2/B C2/A C2/G | F / G / |
Reject the truth, believe the lies and give away my peace.

| C2 C2/B C2/A C2/G | F / G / |
I tell myself I’m doing right, why is it I can’t sleep?

| C / G / | Am G | F9 / / / |
But life is bigger than, this dark place that I am.

| C / Dsus4 D | G / |
Could it be God has a master plan?

| Am7 / F9 / | Gsus4 G G2 G |
Can He work this all for good?

Chorus II:
| C / G/B / | Am G F / |
Help me have faith to know God’s coming to deliver me.

| C / G / | Dm / | Gsus4 / G G/F |
To trust that He is near, The future not to fear. And I know that

Bridge:
|| Eb / Bb / | Ab / / Ebsus4/C Eb/Bb |
God planned my life before time

| Eb / Bb / |
Worth all the riches of the world

| Eb/G / Ab/C / |
One precious life.

| Ab / / / |
With my destiny before me,

| Eb/G / / / |
My life is crying out

| F7 / / / |
Will you fight for me?

| Ab / Bb / |
My life is crying out

| Ab/C / Bb/D Bb || C / / / || F / / / |
My life is crying out Keep me

Refrains:
| F / Dm / | Bb / C / |
Safe, keep me warm Protect me from the storm

| F / Dm / | Bb / C / |
Let me live, I want to live, I beg you to choose life

| F / Bb / | Dm / C / |
As I cry for help
God will rescue me…

| F / Bb / | Dm / C / |
And my life will be Keep me
Precious in His sight…

| F / Bb / | Dm / C / |
Safe, keep me warm Protect me from the storm
Will you hear my cry…

| F / Bb / | Dm / C / |
Let me live, I want to live, I beg you to choose life. Keep me
Will you rescue me…

| F / Bb / | Dm / C / |
Safe, keep me warm Protect me from the storm

| F / Bb / | Dm / Csus4 / | Csus4 / C / |
Let me live, I want to live, I beg you to choose life
Help me…

| NC / / / |
Deliver me…

________________________________

My child, I'm only seventeen,
I don't know what to do.
I hope that you will understand
Why I can't keep you.

5 You see I'm not married,
And you were a mistake.
You were conceived in the
back of a car
While on a blind date.
Your father's not much older,

10 And we are both in school.
I don't feel that I should pay
Because we both were fools.
My child, I don't have a job,
And neither does your dad;

15 But just thinking about abortion
Really makes me sad.
They say you're not really a child,
That you are just a mass,
That I should abort you,

20 And all these feelings will pass.
My child tell me are you real?
Child tell me what to do.
If I decide to keep you,
Would you wear pink or blue?

25 Would I get to hold you,
Would I see your smiling face?
Child, what would you do
If you were in my place?

Mom, I'm not in your place,

30 I can't tell you what to do.
But you've asked me some questions,
So I will answer you:
Yes Mom I'm really real
Though I did not ask to be,

35 Now it seems the question is,
What will do with me?
I pray I'll get to know you,
And you'll hold me in your arms;
You'll tuck me into bed at night

40 And protect me from harm.
We'll play ring around the roses
And hide and seek too.
Mom, don't you understand,
I'm just as real as you.

45 I'm all soft and cuddly,
And I have rosy cheeks.
But I can't tell you what to do,
It's God's wisdom you must seek.
You see Mom I'm not a mass,

50 No matter what they think.
And just in case you're wondering,
I'd be wearing pink.

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#488682 - 01/25/06 11:08 PM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
°X° Offline
Power Poster
°X°
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,332
WOOHOO
This abortion issue will remain a divisive issue for all our lifetimes, because the issue reveals a fundamental split in American culture: Pro-life vs. Pro-choice; Religion vs. secularism; Country music vs. rock and roll; Strict gender roles vs. tolerance for androgyny; Heterosexuality vs. mixed orientations.

The cultural battle line has emerged between the traditional American values and the new set of values that emerged in the sixties. The sixties started a cultural war that is now fought outside of abortion clinics. When two cultures live in the same space, violence is often the result.

At the end of the day, pro-life will win - trust me I know this to be true as I'm the closest person to God that is posting on these threads.

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#488683 - 01/26/06 12:04 AM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
steven1950 Offline
Diamond Poster
steven1950
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,015
San Francisco
Despite all the polls, demonstrations, and attempts by the righties to politicize choice, the fact is that whether or not a woman chooses to end a pregnancy remains between her and her physician. Their decision is only one that matters. Period.

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#488684 - 01/26/06 12:57 AM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Wouldn't the debate be interesting if medical science progressed to the point where an embryo was "viable" outside the mother's womb immediately after conception. Under the Roe v. Wade opinion (portions quoted below), the state would then have a compelling interest in protecting the life of the unborn, including restricting abortion.



What if the only way to reach that hypothetical was through bio-technology? More specifically, using methods which employ quasi-creationary means such as genetic engineering or cloning. This creates a situation where a party collapses and nullifies itself as each person has to decide where on the continuum they fall on these issues.

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#488685 - 01/26/06 01:24 AM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Anonymous
Unregistered

con't:
So in a sense X, this pending doom you speak of does not seem ripe yet to me. Is(are) doom and gloom (and locusts i'm sure ) your way of selling acquiescence in your viewpoint?

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#488686 - 01/26/06 01:43 AM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
rainman Offline
Power Poster
rainman
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,237
Steven:

Despite all the polls, demonstrations, and attempts by the [ lefties ] to politicize choice, the fact is that whether or not a woman chooses to [ buy a gun ] remains between her and her [ gun dealer ]. Their decision is only one that matters. Period.

- - - - - - - - -
We restrict choice all the time. Even though it's my body, the government won't let me sell you one of my kidneys.

Choice is not the issue. Period.
Last edited by rainman; 01/26/06 01:44 AM.
_________________________
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#488687 - 01/26/06 01:56 AM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
-A- Offline
Gold Star
-A-
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 466
the good ole south
Have you ever noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born?

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#488688 - 01/26/06 02:04 AM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Anonymous
Unregistered

Rainier, as Roe says, choice is a part of the equation. So you are both wrong.

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#488689 - 01/26/06 02:05 AM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Anonymous
Unregistered

clever post though!

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#488690 - 01/26/06 02:32 AM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Have you ever noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born?




Everyone who is for or against everything has already been born - fetuses have no ability to form an opinion.

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#488691 - 01/26/06 02:54 AM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Quote:

Have you ever noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born?




Everyone who is for or against everything has already been born - fetuses have no ability to form an opinion.



The issue does not turn on the ability to form an opinion. Rather, it is the protection of a life at the point where it becomes viable. It is a balance test.

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#488692 - 01/26/06 06:07 AM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

Rainier, as Roe says, choice is a part of the equation. So you are both wrong.




But, RZ, even for the Roe court, choice is the second part of the equation. In order to even address the issue of choice, you have to determine that the thing to be decided is permissible. Roe based that determination on the concept of viability, deciding that in the third trimester the state could have a compelling interest in preserving the life of the fetus that would justify restricting the right to abortion.

Which might lead one to ask, does Steven1950 (or NARAL) call Justice Blackmun or the rest of the Roe court "anti-choice" because Blackmun thought it was okay to resrict abortion in the third trimester?

rainman

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#488693 - 01/26/06 06:16 AM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Anonymous
Unregistered

Actually, I had that wrong. Roe determined that abortion is permissible (constitutionally) because the fetus isn't a "person" that is protected under the constitution. That's what makes the choice available in the first place.

Having determined that the choice is permissible, the court decided that the state's interest in preserving "life" is compelling enough to restrict that choice when the fetus becomes viable.

Sorry for the misstatement in the prior post. If I were logged in, I'd edit it. Oh, and thanks for the compliment RZ!

rainman

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#488694 - 01/26/06 01:14 PM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby) *DELETED*
MichelleDawn Offline
Power Poster
MichelleDawn
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,994
Post deleted by MichelleDawn
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If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?

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#488695 - 01/26/06 01:38 PM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Anonymous
Unregistered

Not true, Michelle. There are circumstances under which the law permits someone to take the life of another. Arguing that the issue is about choice is just a convenient way to avoid figuring out how those rules might apply in the abortion arena.

So it sounds like you would in fact say that the Roe court was anti-choice because it permits states to prohibit abortion in the third trimester, except to save the life or health of the mother.

rainman

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#488696 - 01/26/06 01:41 PM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby) *DELETED*
MichelleDawn Offline
Power Poster
MichelleDawn
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,994
Post deleted by MichelleDawn
_________________________
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?

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#488697 - 01/26/06 02:00 PM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby)
Anonymous
Unregistered

Quote:

How many people do you think would claim they were raped if that was the only way to get a legal abortion?




You forget that every coin has two sides. I've heard that only 1 in 10 rapes is reported, so, another way to look at this is that more actual rapes would be reported rather than it just being swept under the rug with an abortion because of pressure from the pregnant woman's family or from the rapist himself (particularly in the case of spousal rape, incest, and date rape).

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#488698 - 01/26/06 02:03 PM Re: Support for Abortion in Sharp Decline (Zogby) *DELETED*
MichelleDawn Offline
Power Poster
MichelleDawn
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,994
Post deleted by MichelleDawn
_________________________
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?

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#488699 - 01/26/06 02:07 PM Abortion Groups Hate Abortion, But Support Choice?
Anonymous
Unregistered

So, you think abortion rights groups, hate abortion, but support a woman's choice? If so, read this and then seek out the article it references:

Quote:

July 28, 2004, Wednesday The Lives column in The Times Magazine on July 18 gave a first-person account of the experience of Amy Richards, who had been pregnant with triplets and decided to abort two of the fetuses because of the inconvenience of having three babies instead of just one. Ms. Richards, who told her story to a freelance Times Magazine contributor, Amy Barrett, discussed her anxiety about having triplets, the procedure to terminate two of the pregnancies and the healthy baby she eventually delivered; she expressed no regret about her decision.

Ms. Richards is an abortion rights advocate who has worked with Planned Parenthood, as well as a co-founder of a feminist organization, the Third Wave Foundation, which has financed abortions.




As you can see, this woman does not hate abortion. She and the abortion activists she works with think of it is a greatest form of post conception birth control known to humankind. Beware the dogs you lie down with, you might get fleas.

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