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#1040461 - 09/11/08 07:29 PM Occupation on CTR - "retired"
AuditorK Offline
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Two reference guides that I have state that "retired" is an acceptable description to put in the occupation section of a CTR. We were just cited by an auditor for not stating "retired coal miner, banker, etc." Any thoughts or opinions?

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#1040474 - 09/11/08 07:37 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" AuditorK
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FDIC told us to put retired car saleman, etc. not just retired.

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#1040487 - 09/11/08 07:41 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" AuditorK
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What is the source of the reference guides that said "retired" for occupation is acceptable? My understanding is that regulators want to know what occupation the person is retired from.
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#1040514 - 09/11/08 07:51 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" Dazed Auditor
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I agree, you must put retired from what.

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#1040525 - 09/11/08 07:55 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" P*Q
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This is from the CTR instructions:

Item 13. Occupation, profession, or business. If known, identify the occupation, profession or business that best describes the individual or entity in Part I (e.g., attorney, car dealer, carpenter, doctor, farmer, plumber, truck driver, etc.). Do not use nondescript terms such as businessman, merchant, store owner (unless store’s name is provided), or self employed. If unemployed, or retired are used enter the regular or former occupation if known.

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#1040609 - 09/11/08 08:28 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" NLC
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The guide is "Procedures for Preparing A CTR" by Profit Protection, Inc. and the National Association for Bank Security. The other is by the same organization and is titled "CTR-BSA Multipurpose Compliance Manual". Both have copyright dates of 2004.

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#1040705 - 09/11/08 10:44 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" AuditorK
John Burnett Offline
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So you have one official source that says expand on "retired" if you know the former occupation, one unofficial source (Profit Protection) that says "retired" by itself is enough, and examiners who rail at you when you don't add the former occupation. Which or whom do you believe?

As much as I respect Profit Protection for the work they do, they don't have any official standing in this debate. If they have any written "blessing" for their read of the rules, it's not in their manual.

At the same time, the examiner is running counter to the plain wording in the instructions (which have, by the way, been quietly changing as different versions seem to pop up on the FinCEN and IRS sites from time to time without any official hoopla). That wording says to include the former occupation if known.

I think the examiners would be justified in criticizing your bank if "retired" or "unemployed" always appears without modification or amplification in its CTRs. That would strongly suggest the bank is not adhering to the instructions on the form. I'd recommend agreeing to modify your procedures and training to call for "retired [insert if known]" instructions.

That said, I'll borrow a comment from my friend Ken, who has suggested that law enforcement should be alerted to ANY retiree with a CTR filing. What is a retired stock broker, trash hauler, lifeguard, or BSA officer doing with more than $10K in cash?
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#1040781 - 09/12/08 12:32 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" John Burnett
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I agree with you John. I just wanted to explain where I got the information on how we filed. I don't think being written up for one CTR that had only "retired" is correct. Like you said, numerous without further detail could indicate noncompliance. In that one instance, we may not have had the former occupation information. Thanks for your response.

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#1040802 - 09/12/08 12:51 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" AuditorK
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Now does everybody understand why BSA can be made so complicated? If you look at this inactive FDIC FIL, question #18, you will see that is says banks "should" attempt to obtain more specific information, not "required" to obtain more specific information.

http://www.fdic.gov/news/news/inactivefinancial/1995/fil9570a.html

The CTR instructions (effective 12/03, but the old form could be used until 08/04) say "If unemployed, or retired are used enter the regular or former occupation if known". Notice again, that it says "if known", not that it is required. It does not even say that you have to ask.

In defense of anybody that publishes any manual, I can understand that any manual with a copyright date of 2004 (it could be very early in 2004) would use the FDIC FIL as a source, and would not say that "retired from what" is required because that is not what the FIL or the CTR instructions say.

In reality, "should" for some examiners translates to "must" while others may be a little more understanding and not lower the boom for something that is obviously in a gray area.
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#1050990 - 09/26/08 10:16 AM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" Retread
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
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I agree that the instructions to the current CTR plant the seed for asking retired "what" or unemployed "what" and that "if known" does not make the query mandatory. At most, it indicates that the query is no longer pure lore or examiner preference. (Frankly, I think it's ridiculous; my "former" occupation is the one that doesn't have anything to do with why I have $10,000+ in cash today.)

However, I encourage you to see if you can find a version of Form 104 Eff. December 2003 that you printed or received earlier. I've got one from a manual I built some time ago and the sentence: If unemployed, or retired are used enter the regular or former occupation if known is not part of the instructions to Item 13. The form's the same, it's just that the instructions were enhanced well after the form's use became mandatory in 2004.

When was it added? Dunno, but if compliance with the instructions to an OMB approved form is a moving target BSA compliance will be "difficult" indeed.
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#1051015 - 09/26/08 12:36 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" Elwood P. Dowd
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Ken,

Check your forms closely. I have one that says (Rev.8-03) that does not have the "if known" as part of the instructions. Then I have the latest version (Eff. 12-03). In other words, when it was changed from Form 4789 to Form 104, the "if known" was missing. With the latest version (Eff. 12-03) it is there. I questioned how they could change the instructions without notice, but got no response. My memory is failing me, but I believe there were also several other unannounced changes in the instructions between the initial distribution of the forms (Rev. 8-03) and the release of the current version (Eff 12-03). Is that clear as mud?

In any event, I tend to agree that the "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy when it comes to BSA compliance is not necessarily the best route to take, but if the "if known" part becomes a major exam criticism, then I would insist on seeing something that says "required" before I would sit back and accept the criticism.
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#1051063 - 09/26/08 01:23 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" John Burnett
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Originally Posted By: John Burnett
That said, I'll borrow a comment from my friend Ken, who has suggested that law enforcement should be alerted to ANY retiree with a CTR filing. What is a retired stock broker, trash hauler, lifeguard, or BSA officer doing with more than $10K in cash?


I wouldn't say that's the case with "any" and all retires. We have some retired [insert whatever] customers who routinely rate-shop their CDs and seem to prefer cash transactions. When their CD at another FI matures, they close it out and show up here with cash, often $10-$20 K. We don't worry much about their reasons for preferring cash instead of a check. They may incorrectly perceive there will be less difficulty establishing a new CD with cash, or think that cash will earn interest faster than a check (due to potential holds on deposited checks). If we know or have decent reason to believe the cash came from an investment or CD-cash out elsewhere, then we don't alert law enforcement (file a SAR) in that situation. We get that "decent reason to believe" from looking at their CD history. If I can see a 2002-2003 CD for $10K, cashed out in 2003, then another in 2005-2006, then they show up in 2008 with about $12,000 cash, I tend to think it's explainable.
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#1051156 - 09/26/08 01:58 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" Maytagman
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I'll go on record as having said that anyone with an occupation of unemployed, retired, housewife, etc. should be plugged into your system for SAR consideration. If you can figure out where the money came from that's fine, if you can't then you know what to do.
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#1051424 - 09/26/08 03:51 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" Elwood P. Dowd
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We have used "Retired Unknown", meaning they're retired but we do not know from what. We have not had examiners question our "retired unknown" or "self employed unknown" or simply "unknown" or "unavailable" in the occupation box. Once the customer leaves (especially those who are non-customers cashing on-us checks) there's really no way to gain further knowledge of what the person does (or did) for a living.
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#1051969 - 09/26/08 08:14 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" Elwood P. Dowd
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Originally Posted By: Ken_Pegasus
I'll go on record as having said that anyone with an occupation of unemployed, retired, housewife, etc. should be plugged into your system for SAR consideration. If you can figure out where the money came from that's fine, if you can't then you know what to do.


Ah, yes, exactly - SAR consideration. It just sounded like it was a slam-dunk definite SAR if "retired" was on the CTR for a cash deposit, but I think we agree that it is just something that may catch your eye and require either determination of where it came from, or a SAR.
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#1051987 - 09/26/08 08:23 PM Re: Occupation on CTR - "retired" Elwood P. Dowd
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