Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly?

Posted By: Imagine

Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 09:10 PM

Is it?

Obama on small-town PA: Clinging religion, guns, xenophobia

Quote:
You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them...And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.


I think it is just brutal honesty.
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 09:19 PM

Especially when certain political types keep telling them they are victims of a "downright mean" society.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 09:20 PM

more like political opportunism to me -------

they cling to guns.....

they cling to religion....

they cling to dislike of people not like them......

they cling to anti-immigrant sentiment......

they cling to anti-trade sentiment......


their mistake was believing politicians ccan do something that politicians are not capable of pulling off

and all this young man's promises of hope and change will accomplish similar outcomes.........................
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 09:30 PM

This reminds me of the infamous Howard Dean comment from the 2004 campaign.

He said, to much media coverage, "Sooner or later, voters in places like that (the South) are going to grow tired of voting on guns, God and gays and start voting on education, health care and jobs".
http://www.cnsnews.com/Politics/archive/200407/POL20040728d.html

or when he said he wanted to get the votes of, "guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E04E2DA1739F935A35752C1A9659C8B63

In my opinion, neither what Dean or Obama said is wrong. It is the painful truth.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 09:38 PM

politicians speaking truth --- hmmmm

I gotta think about that one for a minute

but my initial comment to Dr. Dean would be that there are jobs, health care and education in the south - probably more so than up north with the population movement we have going on....

and the comment about white guys with Confederate flags and wanting their vote - I don't know what to say to that, I have never seen a truck with that kind of flag
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 09:42 PM

Pale, then you've never been to a NASCAR race in Martinsville, Virginia...

Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 09:45 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Pale, then you've never been to a NASCAR race in Martinsville, Virginia...



this is a true statement; but really what % of the truck driving south has a confed flag waving briskly in the breeze?

Texas is the truck capital of the south if not all the world, and I have never seen one
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 09:55 PM

PR:
Look at the bigger issue. Look at the "God, Guns, and Gays" voters (there are quite a few). Are those reasons the right (or wrong) reasons to vote for or against a politician?

Dean was right. His comments were the seeds of a 50 state strategy. It is because of Dean's comments regarding voting blocks the Democrats need to reach out too, that we have won Senate seats in Virginia and Montana. It is also the reason why there are Democratic Governors in Wyoming, Montana, Virginia, Kansas, etc.

Are those comments by Dean, and Obama, tactful? No.

But do they hit a point highlighting the real problem with how, and why, people vote a certain way? Yes.
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 10:09 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
PR:
Look at the bigger issue. Look at the "God, Guns, and Gays" voters (there are quite a few). Are those reasons the right (or wrong) reasons to vote for or against a politician?



Voting according to one's values is a fine reason to vote for a candidate, IMHO.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 10:11 PM

I guess I am not following Dean;

what was the 50 state strategy? To emphasize God, Guns and Gays? To have more middle of the road democrats running in Virginia, Montana, Wyoming, Montana, Kansas, etc?

isn't there a rythm, pattern or an ebb and flow to all this?

If this is the "bigger issue", then why Obama? This guy is the farthest left of all democrat Senators. Won't his administration start the pendulum swinging back?
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 10:34 PM

The Dean point was that the Democrats NEED to reach out to the rural white males, those who care about gun rights and are value voters. The 50 State strategy is to make sure Democrats can win in ALL 50 states. (Which is the source of my contempt for Clinton people who claim states such as Wyoming, which Obama won, do not count because there is no way Democrats can win there in November.)

Don, you ask "Why Obama?".
I don't have an answer to that. But keep in mind some of the states he has won: Iowa, Nevada, South Carolina, Alabama, Alaska, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, North Dakota, Utah, Louisiana, Nebraska, Virginia, Texas (Caucus), Wyoming and Mississippi. These are not "blue' states, yet Obama won them in HUGE numbers.

Therefore, there is SOMETHING about Obama that reaffirms Dean's calls to reach out to the Confederate flag waving, pick up truck driving, blue collar worker. I mean, he has to be winning SOME of these folks, I don't think there are THAT many Starbucks in North Dakota...
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 10:36 PM

50-state strategy

Quote:
Dean proposed what has come to be known as the 50-State Strategy. The goal, the DNC says, is for the Democratic Party to be committed to winning elections at every level in every region of the country, with Democrats organized in every single voting precinct in the country.
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 10:43 PM

Winning in a primary is hardly the same thing as winning in the general election. Conneticut Democrats learned that when they decided to oust a popular Senator.
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/11/08 10:44 PM

PR, you may have to explain this, as I am sure I am on ignore.
Posted By: JacF

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/12/08 02:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Typ. White Persn
Winning in a primary is hardly the same thing as winning in the general election.


I agree. These may be red states that Obama is winning, but he's up against other Democrats. In that setting and context, he'll get votes just because his name isn't Clinton.

As for Obama's (and Dean's) statements. I don't mind that they lack tact, I just think they're incorrect.
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/12/08 02:51 AM

This statement just shows how much of a true blue class warfare socialist left-winger the man really is. Every election, these leftists try to float the woe-is-me victim mentality. Now, to elect people who have traditionally not supported his views, try spewing the same nonsense at them, leading them to believe that good ol' social programs are going to elevate them to some form of prosperity that only personal initiative and determination can really do.
Posted By: #Just Jay

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/12/08 04:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Typ. White Persn
PR, you may have to explain this, as I am sure I am on ignore.


Have no fear... He Who Shall Not Be Named (HWSNBN) will hit the quote button so HWSNBN will be able to read what you posted.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/12/08 11:40 AM

Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
This statement just shows how much of a true blue class warfare socialist left-winger the man really is. Every election, these leftists try to float the woe-is-me victim mentality. Now, to elect people who have traditionally not supported his views, try spewing the same nonsense at them, leading them to believe that good ol' social programs are going to elevate them to some form of prosperity that only personal initiative and determination can really do.


I did not get ANY of that from Obama's comments. In fact, my interpretation of Obama's comments showed that he does COMPLETELY understand the reasoning for the bitterness of "small town" folk. The Government promises them that it will get better. Any administration does so. But when the promises fail, people get bitter. And when the times get tough, it is easier to blame others. I don't live in a small town by any means, nor is it in PA or the midwest, but what Obama's saying is real. So many people here, who are down on their luck and have financial worries, are so quick to blame those "immigrants" who come over and take our jobs. It is so easy to blame someone else for your woes.

I just honestly, feel that Obama is speaking the blunt truth on this issue.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/12/08 11:42 AM

Quote:
And so people end up- they don’t vote on economic issues because they don’t expect anybody’s going to help them. So people end up, you know, voting on issues like guns, and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. And they take refuge in their faith and their community and their families and things they can count on. But they don’t believe they can count on Washington. So I made this statement-- so, here’s what rich. Senator Clinton says ‘No, I don’t think that people are bitter in Pennsylvania. You know, I think Barack’s being condescending.’ John McCain says, ‘Oh, how could he say that? How could he say people are bitter? You know, he’s obviously out of touch with people.’

“Out of touch? Out of touch? I mean, John McCain—it took him three tries to finally figure out that the home foreclosure crisis was a problem and to come up with a plan for it, and he’s saying I’m out of touch? Senator Clinton voted for a credit card-sponsored bankruptcy bill that made it harder for people to get out of debt after taking money from the financial services companies, and she says I’m out of touch? No, I’m in touch. I know exactly what’s going on. I know what’s going on in Pennsylvania. I know what’s going on in Indiana. I know what’s going on in Illinois. People are fed-up. They’re angry and they’re frustrated and they’re bitter. And they want to see a change in Washington and that’s why I’m running for President of the United States of America.”


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0408/Obama_explains_SF_comments.html
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/12/08 11:51 AM

Watch the video. People in Indiana seem to agree with him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9PepjyDow
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/12/08 02:23 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
[quote=TheWitchDoctor]This statement just shows how much of a true blue class warfare socialist left-winger the man really is. Every election, these leftists try to float the woe-is-me victim mentality. Now, to elect people who have traditionally not supported his views, try spewing the same nonsense at them, leading them to believe that good ol' social programs are going to elevate them to some form of prosperity that only personal initiative and determination can really do.


Quote:
It is so easy to blame someone else for your woes.


Gee, you mean like Oppression Consciousness. "I am a victim of this group or that group." Funny how Obama wants to point out hostility of one group toward immigrants, but no of his base constituency toward "typical whites", toward corporate America, toward the wealthy, and of course, toward those he defines as wealthy but are not really by U.S. standards etc .

See it for what it is--Class Warfare continuously repackaged.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/12/08 02:57 PM

Do you deny that there is class warfare in America?
A wise man once said, "Poor man want to be rich, Rich man wants to be King, and the King ain't satisfied 'til he rules everything".

And whom has he defined as wealthy that are not by "U.S. standards"?
Posted By: Bailey.

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/12/08 07:44 PM

Quote:
You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them...And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.


to say this gives credence to an inappropriate/non sequitor/emotional/victim-mentality/offensive placement of blame. yes, that is wrong. honestly.
Posted By: HappyGilmore

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/12/08 10:45 PM

Quote:
The Government promises them that it will get better But when the promises fail, people get bitter


that's strange, but I thought Obama was part of teh government...silly me.
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/12/08 11:44 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Do you deny that there is class warfare in America?
A wise man once said, "Poor man want to be rich, Rich man wants to be King, and the King ain't satisfied 'til he rules everything".

And whom has he defined as wealthy that are not by "U.S. standards"?


Frank, I do not deny that the perception of class warfare is promulgated by the far left, pushing the "I am a victim" mentality. To be fair, yes, I also think that there do exist unscrupulous people that want to, and do, advance at the wrongful expense of others, but I do not for one minute buy that there is a widespread and purposeful institutionalized attempt by a group of people called the "haves" trying to keep down the "have nots."

Most people who attain affluence work hard, and smart, to advance and improve their lives. They do not whine for the government to help them and cry when the government doesn't. You can however, see the people who do think in terms of "carry me along please, it is owed to me." You know them by their attitude that they think the world owes them a living.

Rent the movie with Will Smith "The Pursuit of HappyGilmore ur um "The Pursuit of Happyness" and see the true story of a black man with only the clothes on his back, and his little boy, that had to sleep in his car. poor and destitute, only to persevere against so many odds, to become one of the world's wealthiest and most successful businessmen. He did not whine, and he did not step on anyone---
Here is a quick 1 minute synopsis of Chris Gardner's story:

http://www.chrisgardnermedia.com/main/biography.htm

My take-->Perseverance, persistence, belief in oneself and one's creator, keeping your eye on the prize----> that is how one improves their life and the lives of others. Not crying "I am oppressed by this system, this group, this vast conspiracy."

Ok, rant ended, now rip me a new a**h*le
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/13/08 03:50 AM

this is excerpted from a newspaper:


Michael Goodwin, a columnist for the New York Daily News, accused Mr Obama of "de-legitimising the way people choose to live in America" and argued that the furore would be even more damaging for Mr Obama than the previous row over inflammatory comments by his pastor Jeremiah Wright.

He said: "This is like Wright on steroids. It is a disaster for Obama. I happen to come from one of those small towns in Pennsylvania. I know what people there feel about religion and guns and immigrants.

"It's not about just hating other people. They don't embrace religion out of hate. They don't hunt or use their guns for target practice out of hate. You cannot denigrate religion in that way."


Democrat strategist Robert Zimmerman said: "This raises questions about whether he can truly unite the country, as he pledges to, and whether he really believes that we're one America."

A jubilant Grover Norquist, the conservative anti-tax campaigner said: "That sentence will lose him the election. He just announced to rural America: 'I don’t like you'. Now you can vote against that guy not because you don't like him. You can vote against him because he doesn't like you."

Mrs Clinton told voters in Pennsylvania that she does not consider them to be bitter. "I meet people who are resilient, who are optimistic, who are positive, who are rolling up their sleeves," she said.

"Pennsylvania doesn't need a president who looks down on them. They need a president who stands up for them."

Steve Schmidt, a senior aide to the Republican candidate, John McCain, said: "It shows an elitism and condescension toward hard-working Americans that is nothing short of breathtaking."

Mr Obama, campaigning in Indiana, refused to apologise.
Posted By: Blessed

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/13/08 05:57 PM

very well stated Withdoctor, I could not agree with you more. Thank you.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 02:24 AM

Quote:
You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them...And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.


Hmm...anti-trade sentiment...where is it that I've been hearing anti-trade sentiment...oh yes!...seems like both of these Democrat candidates have been whipping that up, one of them even accusing the other of not being opposed to NAFTA enough. A candidate that says one thing when talking to rich folk in a coastal city [edited to add - or when his representatives are talking to Canadian officials] and another thing when talking to regular folk in flyover country? I thought John Kerry plowed this ground already...
Posted By: CRAatBOK

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 03:59 AM

In this political climate if a presidential candiate (any one of the three) said "the weather tomorrow will be cold and cloudy" they would be attacked from someone and it would blow up into a national debate.

I am not defending what Obama said or Clinton's response to it. I am just saying politically we are in a high alert attack mode and no matter what is said it will be parced and blown apart by all concerned.

BTW, it is going to be sunny tomorrow.

Believe it or not, I wrote this before I read the other thread and Ron's comment.
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 01:21 PM

Lord, when you start quoting Springsteen as a great and wise Oracle, you seriously have some growing up to do.

Obama is an elitist. I have lots of relatives in small town PA, and none of them are bitter because of these reasons.

And, they were religious and shot guns their entire lives because they Love Jesus and the sport of shooting, not because of their political views.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 01:56 PM

"......it’s one thing for a German thinker to assert that “religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature.” It’s another thing for an American presidential candidate to claim that we “cling to ... religion” out of economic frustration.

And it’s a particularly odd claim for Barack Obama to make. After all, in his speech at the 2004 Democratic convention, he emphasized with pride that blue-state Americans, too, “worship an awesome God.”

What’s more, he’s written eloquently in his memoir, “Dreams From My Father,” of his own religious awakening upon hearing the Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s “Audacity of Hope” sermon, and of the complexity of his religious commitment. You’d think he’d do other believers the courtesy of assuming they’ve also thought about their religious beliefs.

But Obama in San Francisco does no courtesy to his fellow Americans. Look at the other claims he makes about those small-town voters.

Obama ascribes their anti-trade sentiment to economic frustration — as if there are no respectable arguments against more free-trade agreements. This is particularly cynical, since he himself has been making those arguments, exploiting and fanning this sentiment that he decries. Aren’t we then entitled to assume Obama’s opposition to Nafta and the Colombian trade pact is merely cynical pandering to frustrated Americans?

Then there’s what Obama calls “anti-immigrant sentiment.” Has Obama done anything to address it? It was John McCain, not Obama, who took political risks to try to resolve the issue of illegal immigration by putting his weight behind an attempt at immigration reform.

Furthermore, some concerns about unchecked and unmonitored illegal immigration are surely legitimate. Obama voted in 2006 (to take just one example) for the Secure Fence Act, which was intended to control the Mexican border through various means, including hundreds of miles of border fence. Was Obama then just accommodating bigotry?

As for small-town Americans’ alleged “antipathy to people who aren’t like them”: During what Obama considers the terrible Clinton-Bush years of economic frustration, by any measurement of public opinion polling or observed behavior, Americans have become far more tolerant and respectful of minorities who are not “like them.” Surely Obama knows this. Was he simply flattering his wealthy San Francisco donors by casting aspersions on the idiocy of small-town life?

That leaves us with guns. Gun ownership has been around for an awfully long time. And people may have good reasons to, and in any case have a constitutional right to, own guns — as Obama himself has been acknowledging on the campaign trail, when he presents himself as more sympathetic to gun owners than a typical Democrat.

What does this mean for Obama’s presidential prospects? He’s disdainful of small-town America — one might say, of bourgeois America. He’s usually good at disguising this. But in San Francisco the mask slipped. And it’s not so easy to get elected by a citizenry you patronize.

And what are the grounds for his supercilious disdain? If he were a war hero, if he had a career of remarkable civic achievement or public service — then he could perhaps be excused an unattractive but in a sense understandable hauteur. But what has Barack Obama accomplished that entitles him to look down on his fellow Americans? "



-----thoughts of Bill Kristol in National Review Online
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 02:23 PM

Bill Kristol and the NRO...
There's an unbiased view of the situation...
Posted By: waldensouth

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 02:34 PM

Mr. Obama's comments were more indicative of his own prejudice than that of others. He keeps reinforcing this view of him as a man incapable of uniting the country because he is so busy denigrating folks who aren't like him.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 02:38 PM

Perhaps he really did just misspeak?
He had very good clarifications over the weekend at events, at The Compassion Forum last night, and surely will be able to respond during the debate on Wed. night.

I don't believe he is denigrating anyone.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 02:53 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Perhaps he really did just misspeak?
He had very good clarifications over the weekend at events, at The Compassion Forum last night, and surely will be able to respond during the debate on Wed. night.

I don't believe he is denigrating anyone.



well thanks for this unbiased condescension
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 03:05 PM

Man, if that's true, he misspeaks A LOT.

I wonder if he was President and was in crucial talks with other governmental leaders he would misspeak this much.
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 03:24 PM

The man simply echoes his true sentiments. No elitist thinks that they are actually being condescending to those they are in fact being condescending to. They are elitist sentiments.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 04:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Perhaps he really did just misspeak?
He had very good clarifications over the weekend at events, at The Compassion Forum last night, and surely will be able to respond during the debate on Wed. night.

I don't believe he is denigrating anyone.



well thanks for this unbiased condescension


Easy old man. I do not believe I was being condescending to anyone.
Posted By: Snow Bunny

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 04:19 PM

I don't think you're being condescending, Neo - but I have to agree with MB Guy. He is a very scripted candidate. When Obama speaks off the cuff, he seems to have a lot of problems. What happens when he's in a sensitive meeting with the President of a not too friendly country and there's a lot of pressure on him? We need someone who is cool under fire. This is where experience comes in - and if in Obama's case it's not just the lack of experience, then it is even MUCH worse!
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 04:55 PM

cool under fire like calling medvedev a ? that kind of cool under fire?


please don't try to avoid the banned words by the use of symbols, it illustrates a defiance of the admins' policy and procedures
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 05:08 PM

No, the cool under fire that Obama has been that he denied his pastor ever made similar remarks from the pulpit, or that he had never heard the pastor say things like that.

That kind of cool under fire.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 05:31 PM

wait, obama said that stuff from the pulpit?

i am not aware of him denying what rev wright said. i guess it is all a matter of what you believe and how much you want to twist reality because of something that ron said on bol.

you are shallow, straw. now back to work with you...
Posted By: rainman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 05:42 PM

Ron, does it not concern you even just a little bit about Obama's judgment (let alone his beliefs) that:

He sees no problem serving on a board (and being friends with) an admitted - proud in fact - domestic terrorist who says his only regret is that he didn't do more (terrorism)?

He puts the incendiary pastor on some committee that is part of his campaign and publicly proclaims him as a trusted spiritual adviser?

He makes the unscripted remarks about working class PA people believing what they do (God, gun rights, etc.) because they're bitter and frustrated? Does that not seem even a little condescending to you?
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 05:50 PM

Thomas Frank On Obama: Not That Controversial

Quote:
Thomas Frank, the author who redefined the perception of the red state/blue state divide in America, says he doesn't find Sen. Barack Obama's comments on the bitterness of small-town Midwesterners all that alarming.

"People are bitter in small towns," Frank told the Huffington Post. "People are bitter everywhere. I don't know if you have seen the stock market -- people are bitter about their situation. It doesn't strike me as a very controversial statement."
Frank, who famously penned the book "What's The Matter With Kansas?" had been away this past weekend and missed the controversy surrounding Obama's remarks. Read the quotes over the phone, he said he was "disinclined to comment" further as he was hoping to devote his time to his upcoming book on Republican politicians in Washington D.C. rather than media requests.

However, his comments on the Obama flap reflect what was the underlying premise of his hit book: mainly, that people were voting against their economic interests because conservatives had galvanized them around political-identity issues.

"I chose to observe the phenomenon by going back to my home state of Kansas, a place that has been particularly ill-served by the conservative policies of privatization, deregulation, and de-unionization, and that has reacted to its worsening situation by becoming more conservative still," Frank wrote of the methodology behind his book in 2004. "Indeed, Kansas is today the site of a ferocious struggle within the Republican Party, a fight pitting affluent moderate Republicans against conservatives from the working-class districts and the downmarket churches. And it's hard not to feel some affection for the conservative faction, even as you deplore their political views. After all, these are the people that liberalism is supposed to speak to: the hard-luck farmers, the bitter factory workers, the outsiders, the disenfranchised, the disreputable."


I placed my emphasis in bold. That, in my own opinion, is the whole point. People ARE bitter.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 05:55 PM

If you can access video, this is Obama commenting on his remarks at last night's Compassion Forum which aired on CNN.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1498021972?bctid=1502861909
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 05:56 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Perhaps he really did just misspeak?
He had very good clarifications over the weekend at events, at The Compassion Forum last night, and surely will be able to respond during the debate on Wed. night.

I don't believe he is denigrating anyone.



well thanks for this unbiased condescension


Easy old man. I do not believe I was being condescending to anyone.



now you insult me due to my advanced years!!!!!

you elites just can't let it go!
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 05:56 PM

Yes, maybe people are bitter, but that has nothing to do with their religious beliefs nor their rights to own guns.
Posted By: Snow Bunny

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 06:04 PM

It doesn't matter what he sounded like when he 'commented on his comments'. What matters is where the emphasis was when he originally made the comments.

And you all had better watch out because I actually do live in small town, Pennsylvania; with my guns; and my Church; and am bitter and frustrated (about all the Democrats crowding our airwaves for another week with this campaign cr*p!)
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 06:08 PM

this is the greatest country in the history of the world Neo

we have done more to fight poverty, fight disease, oppression, and on and on - this was not done by bitterness, but by upbeat people of hope and faith and freedom!

know if you are bitter, we are sorry for you, people are not xenophobic by clinging to their church or guns.

O's statement was flat out an elitist viewpoint of a liberal who wants to win an election without the blue collar conservative, hayseed, illiterate democrats -

it was either Schrum or the snakehead that said as much yesterday with Russertt
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 06:14 PM

Many people are xenophobic, and all too often they blame "others" for their woes Pale.

I do not deny what America has done in the past in regards to fighting poverty and such, and that is not where Obama was going with his comments.

I agree with Mr. Rich. People are bitter. People are angry. We have been given the shaft for far too long. [censored] yes I am bitter. [censored] yes I am angry. It is time for a change.

And in the words of Stone Cold, "That's all I have to say about that!"
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 06:16 PM

On a sidenote, TWD/AmlFella/Etc...what do you think of the owner of your beloved Steelers saying that "Obama is one of us". ???


http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/04/owner_of_pittsburgh_steelers_e.php
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 06:18 PM

I thought Forrest Gump said that.
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
On a sidenote, TWD/AmlFella/Etc...what do you think of the owner of your beloved Steelers saying that "Obama is one of us". ???


http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/04/owner_of_pittsburgh_steelers_e.php


Non-issue to me.
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Many people are xenophobic, and all too often they blame "others" for their woes Pale.

I do not deny what America has done in the past in regards to fighting poverty and such, and that is not where Obama was going with his comments.

I agree with Mr. Rich. People are bitter. People are angry. We have been given the shaft for far too long. [censored] yes I am bitter. [censored] yes I am angry. It is time for a change.

And in the words of Stone Cold, "That's all I have to say about that!"


And, in the words of Mahatma Gandhi, "YOU must be the change you wish to see in the world."

Quit expecting some politician to fix poverty, and do your part. Do something to create jobs. Start your own charity. Raise money for those in need. DO YOUR PART.

Government is not going to change things, but we the people can.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: TheWitchDoctor
Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
On a sidenote, TWD/AmlFella/Etc...what do you think of the owner of your beloved Steelers saying that "Obama is one of us". ???


http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/04/owner_of_pittsburgh_steelers_e.php


Non-issue to me.


Was meant more of a "in jest" comment, not a real political one.
Posted By: waldensouth

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 06:23 PM

Neo,

I cannot imagine something as trivial as politics or the economy making me bitter or angry. Life is simply too short for such nonsense. We play the hand we're dealt to the very best of our ability and keep moving. I have my faith, my family, my friends - what else is necessary for a joyfilled life?
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Many people are xenophobic, and all too often they blame "others" for their woes Pale.




yes, indeed these people who blame others are the so called victims of society, the losers in the lottery of life as Kerry used to say - these are the voters that Obama already has wrapped up for election day because he has promised them more of the working families' income through higher taxes

so why insult the independent small town church goers and gun owners of Pennsylvania? Could it have anything to do with the audience he was speaking to? The billionaires out in San Francisco?

Inquiring minds want to know?
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 07:14 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/14/need-headline_n_96578.html

"Clinton Heckled, Obama Cheered Over 'Bitter' Remarks"
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Pale Rider



yes, indeed these people who blame others are the so called victims of society, the losers in the lottery of life as Kerry used to say
The ones who didn't get stuck in Iraq, that is.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 10:41 PM

Originally Posted By: waldensouth
Neo,

I cannot imagine something as trivial as politics or the economy making me bitter or angry. Life is simply too short for such nonsense. We play the hand we're dealt to the very best of our ability and keep moving. I have my faith, my family, my friends - what else is necessary for a joyfilled life?

you are in a very small minority then if you think that the economy is "trivial". not that that's a bad thing, either, but like it or not, it definitely DOES matter to most.

like i said before about jeffrey sachs' comments, if you look around the world where there is violence and war, the common thread is poverty and lack of potable water. sure, the frustration may manifest itself differently, but the root is not what it might appear. that's what obama is talking about.
Posted By: HappyGilmore

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 10:56 PM

Quote:
I agree with Mr. Rich. People are bitter. People are angry. We have been given the shaft for far too long. [censored] yes I am bitter. [censored] yes I am angry. It is time for a change.



change is initiated from within. if you're waiting on others to change for you, it will be a long wait. not happy with your situationa nd place in life? Don't blame anyone but the person you see in the mirror first thing each day
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 11:02 PM

can't he blame people in politics for political decisions that affect his life? he IS initiating change, in his view, by voting for obama. deal with it.
Posted By: rainman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/14/08 11:14 PM

Quote:
the root is not what it might appear. that's what obama is talking about.


Yes, Obama is (and now you are) doing armchair psychoanalysis on all of these frustrated people. And the conclusion is that they only believe what they believe because they are frustrated and downtrodden. In other words, if they just had good jobs and mortgages they could pay, they wouldn't believe in a right to bear arms and wouldn't "take refuge" in their faith. To me, that kind of characterization smacks of condescension.
Posted By: Truffle Royale

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:51 AM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly?
Yes.

It's wrong in the same way that it would be wrong of me to say that you are one of the many naive young people who has latched on to a fallible man in the persuit of a sophomoric dream. Generalizations are, by nature, wrong and should be avoided at all costs. That's Political Theory 101 which, it appears, Mr. Obama doesn't have in his repetoire of experiences yet either.
Face it, Neo. He goofed...big time. I'm not debating whether the other candidates have done so too. You asked if what he said was wrong and my answer is 'yes'.

Posted By: Snow Bunny

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 12:10 PM

Cheers to Truffle! Well said.

I think every day Obama is proving himself more and more to be what he is - a politician. He likes to make it seem like he's not, but he is and he is stepping in it more and more every day.

Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 12:38 PM

Quote:
And the conclusion is that they only believe what they believe because they are frustrated and downtrodden.

the point is that they latch onto these things rather than that which is truly affecting their lives because they feel that the politicians aren't going to help the latter plight because they never have. fwiw

i dont think it is condescending when his explicit purpose of stating it is because he wants to fix it. he never said it was wrong to believe in those things. he was implying that, with him, they can start to feel like those neglected needs can come to the fore.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 12:44 PM

oh Ron come to your senses will ya?

Obama critizes the blue collar yahoos in small towns for voting principle and morality over their own self interests!!!!!!! these issues he criticized the "great unwashed" for were primarily non-economic in nature!

I have heard this before, the great Adlai Stevenson criticized these same people back in the 50's for not voting for him.

Its all just so much elitist condescension, and you know it.
Posted By: Snow Bunny

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 12:45 PM

Not what I heard Ron. I'd say he came across as condescending, putting that type of person down - they have nothing else but their guns, church, etc.

I guess we all put our own spin on it depending on who we are in favor of.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 12:47 PM

i am not going to convince you all to not not be cynical. i was just trying to put his comments into a non-cynical context. oh well.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 12:54 PM

How do you accomplish putting his cynical comments in a non-cynical context without performing high wire contortions without the benefit of a net?

we are simple people Ron, we take people's words for what they mean!

we are not "nuanced" like the demo elitists and we have not had the benefit of the heigth and depth of your analysis (nor that of Neo) -
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 12:57 PM

i dont think i used any high wire contortions at all.

i would consider obama's comments much more pragmatic than elitist.
Posted By: waldensouth

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:01 PM

Ron,

In the big picture of life, the economy is trivial. Am I rich? NO - well, maybe to someone in 3rd world country. we are so blessed in this one. Do I like what's happening in the economy at present? NO, but will I allow it to have that much of a negative impact on my life - NO.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:02 PM

yeah right, thats why he has spent much of the past 4 days trying to explain what he "really meant"; a straight talking politician wouldn't have to backtrack to revise and extend......
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:03 PM

i am sure that you are representative of everyone, walden.

do i need to give you the jeffrey sachs example again?
Posted By: waldensouth

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:04 PM

Nope, since I see the common thread as being power-hungry leaders who torment their citizens.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
yeah right, thats why he has spent much of the past 4 days trying to explain what he "really meant"; a straight talking politician wouldn't have to backtrack to revise and extend......

because people like you have spent the last 4 days trying to crawl into his mind to say what he meant! he has spent this time clarifying and dismissing the cynicism.

i think his talk was a little TOO straight for some. the irony is that people are used to hearing the political-sugar-coated version of things from politicians.

again, has he EVER criticized people for their beliefs?
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:08 PM

Originally Posted By: waldensouth
Nope, since I see the common thread as being power-hungry leaders who torment their citizens.

so what do you think his whole "change" philosophy is about? he is trying to let people know that he does not share that common thread.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
[quote=Pale Rider]

again, has he EVER criticized people for their beliefs?



hmmmm yeah

were not his words that these local bumpkins were "clinging to religion" as an opiate for their frustrations? Sounds quite a bit like Karl Marx doesn't it?

I would classify this as a criticism.

I can understand his reasoning though, worshiping where he has for the last 20 years in a church where there is quite a bit of anger and bitterness......
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
can't he blame people in politics for political decisions that affect his life? he IS initiating change, in his view, by voting for obama. deal with it.


Only someone totally ignorant of history, politics, and reality would think that voting for ANYONE, yet alone Obama is going to change poverty.

Or someone who's too busy spending their money getting high and not paying attention.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:25 PM

....pass that bong of change would you BF?
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:28 PM

Did anyone see Colbert on Larry King last night? Hilarious.
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
....pass that bong of change would you BF?


Dude, like Obama and McCain, if they ran together, could totally change the world man. Talk about bipartysand! Like noone would ever be poor again, and we'd still kick everyone's butts at risk!
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:34 PM

Quick reminder for everyone on here---> How totally awesome is it that we can go at it on here like this over the politicans and their positions, vetting their comments and possibly affecting the outcome of the election, without fear of government putting us in jails, gulags, torturing us, kidnapping our family members etc.

I love this country!!!!

GOD, COUNTRY, STEELERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 01:41 PM

I am living in one of those towns that he was speaking of, but the people here are not down trodden, this is just their way of life as they know. The are god loving people thankfull for everything they have. The don't know what it is like to be extremly wealthy in terms of money because they find themselves wealthy in terms of commnity. If that makes sense
Posted By: waldensouth

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 02:00 PM

Ron,
I have no idea what his change philosophy is about. We do have power-hungry folks in both parties, but we don't have the kind of dictators that other countries have who deprive folks who don't either support them or believe as they do of food and water and their very lives. In our country, you CAN make something of yourself - but you have to want it.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:00 PM

i shall mark you all down as not caring about political efficiency, the economy and taxes. got it. i will erase any griping about such subjects from my memory.

ps pale, way to take the high ground with your "bong of change" post. classy.
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:04 PM

Barak made a calm, calculated, well reasoned, well thought out decision, to damage his own capaign with his own stupidity.
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:05 PM

Sorry, Ron, but it isn't that we don't care about political efficiency, economy, and taxes. Frankly, we do. We just don't believe that any candidate who promises to create jobs, lower taxes, solve poverty, and end world hunger is saying anything new or true. We don't believe a candidate can create as many social programs as Obama is saying he is going to create AND lower taxes like he is claiming.

Math doesn't lie, politicians do.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:08 PM

we shall see, shemp-o. i like the fact that people are *finally* talking candidly without filling us with political BS.

my big beef with obama is his nafta stance.
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:10 PM

Which one?
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:11 PM

I wonder if Ron would.... you know.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:12 PM

like i said, the amount of cynicism is not surprising. my response to that is the fact that he is not scared to call a spade a spade (even if he is wrong) because that tells me that he is serious about actually dealing with what he sees are the issues that are allowing people to lose focus on those 3 things that i mentioned. again, it's not like he is against people holding those personal beliefs, he is just saying that perhaps people are focusing on those more than the others because they are cynical about anything changing with regard to the others.

creating programs and lowering taxes are generalization. his website which describes these initiatives isn't nearly so glib.
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:14 PM

I mean, how does Ron know how B-Boy thinks. He almost speaks for him on every issue, as if.... you know.
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:15 PM

I bet Ron envisions seeing Barak on the corner, fixing his tire.

"Do you need a lift?" Ron Questions.

"Why thank you kind sir." Barak gently opens the door and slides into the passenger seat.
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:17 PM

"Where are you heading at this time of the night?" Ron again questions.

Barak places his hand on Ron's. "Just Drive." "I'm going to seduce you while washing your brain."
Posted By: rainman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:22 PM

Ron, put aside for a moment the question of whether he was really critical of "those people" (I believe he was, you believe he wasn't . . . we're not going to change that).

Don't you think he should have seen that a comment like that would be construed (or misconstrued) by many people across the country?

Doesn't that (along with his "grandmother typical white person" comment, his association with (and implicit endorsement of) Jeremiah Wright, and his association with a member of the Weathermen, raise some questions about his judgment and the kind of people he would surround himself with?
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 03:26 PM

No Rainman! Nothing that Barak does in any way will cause Ron to question anything about him, other then his stature and how nice he looks. Vote Barak.
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 04:18 PM

I think Ron has Obama mixed up with B.A. Barracus myself.

Now him, I'd vote for.
Posted By: Becka Marr

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 04:43 PM

Originally Posted By: rainman
Don't you think he should have seen that a comment like that would be construed (or misconstrued) by many people across the country?


Ah, so then you prefer the sugar-coated politically correct doublespeak that is meant to eliminate any worry about whether something could be taken the wrong way.

Originally Posted By: rainman
Doesn't that (along with his "grandmother typical white person" comment, his association with (and implicit endorsement of) Jeremiah Wright, and his association with a member of the Weathermen, raise some questions about his judgment and the kind of people he would surround himself with?


Do you judge everyone by the company they keep, or do you suppose anyone has merit of their own? I'm sure we will remember to let it reflect poorly on you when one of your friends says something we don't like.
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 04:49 PM

Becka,

Once again, this isn't just about keeping company with someone. It is about the advisors one takes on, and the failure to do anything about it when those advisors say things that reflect poorly on you, your people, and your nation. If my friends say something that I don't like, and it reflects on me, I am quick to make sure that people know I don't share their views. Obama waited and waited and continued to support the man until it was too late.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 04:54 PM

is advisor the same as decision-maker? do you think that ayers and wright are being given cabinet positions?

should obama's campaign strategy have focused around clearing up what cynics and spin doctors would impugn him with?
Posted By: Bankster

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 04:54 PM

I'm in a fairly small town in PA, but my primary issues aren't guns and religion. Sure those are the primary concerns of many people around here, but I wouldn't say that having a 'focus-issue' is unique to small town America. Aren't the issues that affect you the most, the ones you are going to be most interested in? Does it make someone in the northwest small-minded because their primary concern is for the environment?

The 'bitter' part of his comment was definately a shot at people that don't happen to support him. If it was so downtrodden here, we would have 50% unemployment and a daily suicide watch. If he would spend some time here, he might find-out why people in small-town PA don't support him. It's not because of guns or religion, it's because we don't want an unAmerican bull@*$! artist who has never accomplished anything in his carreer, leading our country.
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:04 PM

DSchrute, bravo, well stated Sir.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:06 PM

Quote:
Sure those are the primary concerns of many people around here

thank you for helping me.
Quote:
Aren't the issues that affect you the most, the ones you are going to be most interested in?

guns and religious-motivated social policies *affect* people the most?!
Quote:
Does it make someone in the northwest small-minded because their primary concern is for the environment?

actually, the same thing could likely be said about these people. however, energy demand and health are issue that do affect peoples' lives.

Quote:
who has never accomplished anything in his carreer

hyperbole is your trump card apparently.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
is advisor the same as decision-maker? do you think that ayers and wright are being given cabinet positions?

should obama's campaign strategy have focused around clearing up what cynics and spin doctors would impugn him with?


His spiritual advisor, but no I shouldn't be worried by a candidate who asks for advice from someone with his views.

If this was McCain, and his Reverand was found to be spouting racist and hateful rhetoric, do you honestly think you would say, oh well, I know McCain doesn't believe that and after all, that Reverand isn't going to get a cabinet post.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
Quote:
Sure those are the primary concerns of many people around here

thank you for helping me.
Quote:
Aren't the issues that affect you the most, the ones you are going to be most interested in?

guns and religious-motivated social policies *affect* people the most?!
Quote:
Does it make someone in the northwest small-minded because their primary concern is for the environment?

actually, the same thing could likely be said about these people. however, energy demand and health are issue that do affect peoples' lives.

Quote:
who has never accomplished anything in his carreer

hyperbole is your trump card apparently.


If guns don't affect people's lives, why do you argue for gun control. Guns have no affect.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:07 PM

DSchrute = Karl Rove.


"unAmerican bull@*$! artist"?
Please provide examples instead of using 2004 GOP spin terms.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:11 PM

so now obama is not associated with seperation of church and state? is the advice that obama asks about related to if he should hate (or whatever) or, maybe, is he asking about things that people have come out saying that wright has been a tremendous asset for the community about? gee, i just don't know... (get real, straw)

is white culture in american history esentially the same as black history or is there at least a basis for rejecting your mirror image hypothetical?
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:13 PM

Quote:
If guns don't affect people's lives, why do you argue for gun control

primarily for sport tbh.

either way, it was a relative proposition.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:14 PM

Quote:
If Obama's comments about working-class voters had come from the mouth of anyone except a candidate, they might have seemed mildly controversial but broadly true. The statement is being shorthanded in the press with the single word "Bittergate." But what did he actually say?

"You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them," Obama said at a San Francisco fundraiser on April 6. "And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are going to regenerate, and they have not."

There followed the explosive paragraph: "And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Much of his answer suggests an Obama who empathizes with working-class voters who feel abandoned. Having lost hope that government could do much for them economically, they vote on the basis of "values" issues.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/14/AR2008041402649.html

Also interesting opine in regards to Hillary's response to "BitterGate".
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:18 PM

neo, the pulitzer prizes that the wp hordes are granted by quasi-communists.

also, it is de rigueur to dismiss the possibility that the basis for his straight talk (ie UNlike that which politicians typically use) was bona fide empathy for these people.

cynicism is the new black.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
so now obama is not associated with seperation of church and state? is the advice that obama asks about related to if he should hate (or whatever) or, maybe, is he asking about things that people have come out saying that wright has been a tremendous asset for the community about? gee, i just don't know... (get real, straw)

is white culture in american history esentially the same as black history or is there at least a basis for rejecting your mirror image hypothetical?


No you are correct, asking a racist american hater is ok, so long as you don't ask about politics. I am sure he compartmentalizes those beliefs very well, unlike KKK members, whose racism tinges everything about them.

And thank you for admitting that you don't believe an Afican American can be racist.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
neo, the pulitzer prizes that the wp hordes are granted by quasi-communists.

also, it is de rigueur to dismiss the possibility that the basis for his straight talk (ie UNlike that which politicians typically use) was bona fide empathy for these people.

cynicism is the new black.


Part of me hopes Obama wins just so your bubble can be burst and you can join reality about what government and politicians can and cannot accomplish.
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:21 PM

Ron, did you see any excerpts from Colbert on Larry King?

I think you might find them mildly amusing, my pot smoking fellow citizen.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:23 PM

Quote:
And thank you for admitting that you don't believe an Afican American can be racist

because his writings and indicate that he is... (straw, you really are grasping at yourself here)
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:28 PM

Originally Posted By: MB Guy
Ron, did you see an excerpts from Colbert on Larry King?

I think you might find them mildly amusing, my pot smoking fellow citizen.

i did not.

and i don't smoke now.
Posted By: Becka Marr

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Becka,

Once again, this isn't just about keeping company with someone. It is about the advisors one takes on, and the failure to do anything about it when those advisors say things that reflect poorly on you, your people, and your nation. If my friends say something that I don't like, and it reflects on me, I am quick to make sure that people know I don't share their views. Obama waited and waited and continued to support the man until it was too late.


Hmmm...I thought it was about recognizing the difference between someone speaking for themself, or on behalf of another. I don't recall that Wright was speaking for anyone but himself, or that what he said specifically reflected on Obama.

But, no matter! I'm sure that my comments here can easily be discredited by anyone who finds comments by Mr. "X" objectionable.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
Quote:
And thank you for admitting that you don't believe an Afican American can be racist

because his writings and indicate that he is... (straw, you really are grasping at yourself here)


Not what you said. You said

"is white culture in american history esentially the same as black history or is there at least a basis for rejecting your mirror image hypothetical?"

That has nothing to do with an individual (either preacher or Obama, although I was talking about the preacher).

This states that whites can be racists because of history, but the correlary is not true.

Don't backpedal. Be a man and admit your beliefs like you hero Obama does. Stop the political double talk and say it.
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:43 PM

Becka,

There's a big difference between just being associated with someone, and sitting there listening to a sermon shouting AMEN BROTHER! when such things are said. We are also talking about someone who Obama said was his advisor, and created a position for in his government as it was. What makes you think he won't give this anti-american, racist preacher a position on his staff if elected?
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:44 PM

umm, yes it does. it has to do with what wright was saying. i am pretty sure that wright would be considered an individual.

but it DOESN'T indicate that OBAMA is racist based on his writings, speeches and comments simply because obama has some association with wright. stop acting like you have me backed into some corner. just stop already. get back to work.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:49 PM

"is white culture in american history esentially the same as black history or is there at least a basis for rejecting your mirror image hypothetical?"

Explain how this relates to Wright personally.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Becka,

There's a big difference between just being associated with someone, and sitting there listening to a sermon shouting AMEN BROTHER!


Were you there BF? Do you know Obama shouted "AMEN!"? I've, unfortunately, been to a Church service where we were asked to pray for certain things that I do not believe in. I respectfully declinded to say "Lord hear our prayer", but I did not leave the Church service that day. Should I have left the Church all together, in your view?
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:51 PM

Originally Posted By: straw
"is white culture in american history esentially the same as black history or is there at least a basis for rejecting your mirror image hypothetical?"

Explain how this relates to Wright personally.

umm, we were talking about wright's rhetoric. do i need to make a flow chart for you?
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:53 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Becka,

There's a big difference between just being associated with someone, and sitting there listening to a sermon shouting AMEN BROTHER!


Were you there BF? Do you know Obama shouted "AMEN!"? I've, unfortunately, been to a Church service where we were asked to pray for certain things that I do not believe in. I respectfully declinded to say "Lord hear our prayer", but I did not leave the Church service that day. Should I have left the Church all together, in your view?


Neo, were the things your pastor were asking you to pray for incendiary? Were they a normal basis? Is the church you go to known to be a church that stands for racism? Wait, not unless you're going to Obama's church.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 05:58 PM

You didn't answer the question. You're putting forth a claim that Obama echoed Reverend Wright's remarks, even going so far as claiming he shout a great "AMEN" in support of them. That is wrong.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 06:00 PM

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120822319335714919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 06:02 PM

Ron, I posted a letter to the editor from a WHITE member of the Rev's Church. The usual suspects here dismissed it as the member being a "political ally" of Obama or so...
Posted By: rainman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 06:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Becka Marr
Originally Posted By: rainman
Don't you think he should have seen that a comment like that would be construed (or misconstrued) by many people across the country?


Ah, so then you prefer the sugar-coated politically correct doublespeak that is meant to eliminate any worry about whether something could be taken the wrong way.



I prefer straight talk to sugar coating. In this case, the problem isn't that he was giving us the "straight scoop." It's that he made condescending assumptions about why some people believe what they do. Even if that is not really his mindset, as an elected official, I would hope that he would have the political awareness to know how his comment might be taken. As others have pointed out, that's an important skill in a president - one that he seems to demonstrate with increasing frequency that he lacks.

Quote:
Do you judge everyone by the company they keep, or do you suppose anyone has merit of their own? I'm sure we will remember to let it reflect poorly on you when one of your friends says something we don't like.


That depends on the reason for the judgment. I'm not evaluating whether to be friends with him - he's running for the highest elected office we have. I make judgments about him based on every bit of information I have about him, including his resume, his voting record, his public statements, and yes - the company he keeps. You better believe I would have questions for any of my elected officials who thought it was appropriate to be on a board with someone who has bombed government buildings and banks and whose only regret is that he didn't do more of it.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 06:11 PM

neo, arguing with these people about a "liberal" makes me feel like sisyphus.
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
You didn't answer the question. You're putting forth a claim that Obama echoed Reverend Wright's remarks, even going so far as claiming he shout a great "AMEN" in support of them. That is wrong.


Even if he's not, given his position as a public figure, he has the authority and position to either a) stand there and let others do it and let it fester, or b) do something about it.

What he effectively did was stand there as a leader of his community and allow someone else to continue to shout incendiary comments that increase, rather than decrease the racial divide in his community and did nothing. Is he a leader we can count on, or a coward?
Posted By: Peepers

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 06:13 PM

You have syphilis? Must have been the toilet seat.
Posted By: rainman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 06:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
neo, arguing with these people about a "liberal" makes me feel like a sissy.


fixed
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 06:15 PM

@ rainier and peeps.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 06:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
Originally Posted By: straw
"is white culture in american history esentially the same as black history or is there at least a basis for rejecting your mirror image hypothetical?"

Explain how this relates to Wright personally.

umm, we were talking about wright's rhetoric. do i need to make a flow chart for you?


So Mr Wright is not a racist because of the differences between white and black history, but other African Amercians may be racists depsite the differences between white and black history?
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 06:50 PM

no, obama is not racist. the difference in history affect why wright perhaps has the perspective that he does.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
no, obama is not racist. the difference in history affect why wright perhaps has the perspective that he does.



Is Wright a racist or does the difference in history "excuse" his views?
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
no, obama is not racist. the difference in history affect why wright perhaps has the perspective that he does.


I was robbed at gunpoint by 2 african american men. Does that excuse me if I decide to be hateful towards them and preach to other whites that they are keeping this country down?

At least my "history" is recent and personal.
Posted By: Bankster

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 07:49 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
DSchrute = Karl Rove.


"unAmerican bull@*$! artist"?
Please provide examples instead of using 2004 GOP spin terms.


Which part? Regardless of whether you dismess all the internet rumors about him not wearing the flag or putting his hand on his heart or whatever, we do know that his wife has only recently been proud to be an American, and his pastor/advisor/friend/mentor, whatever is very outspoken against the country. I'm sure you will say that he is totally against the views of the people closest to him.

As far as the bull@%&* artist part, let's face it, his major accomplishment to date has been sounding good reading a speach at the Democratic convention a few years ago, and his uncanny ability to slip the word 'change' into any sentence. And he's young and handsome, which is why I assume young people are so enamored by him.

As far as guns and religion not affecting people's lives, what planet, or bleeding heart liberal city, do you live on/in? There are many people in this country whose lives revolve around religion. And let's face it, to many, being able to protect their own family is even more important than national defense.

Obama, and a few of you, have basically stereotyped us as a bunch a illiterate rubes with a shotgun in one hand, and a rifle in the other. So I guess I can assume that you are all pinko, liberals in sandals and hemp shirts, that spend all of your time studying Scientology, recycling your socks, and apoligizing for being American.

My main issue is the economy, which was really humming along until the Democrats took control of Congress.....coincidence, I don't think so.
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: straw
Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
is advisor the same as decision-maker? do you think that ayers and wright are being given cabinet positions?

should obama's campaign strategy have focused around clearing up what cynics and spin doctors would impugn him with?


His spiritual advisor, but no I shouldn't be worried by a candidate who asks for advice from someone with his views.

If this was McCain, and his Reverand was found to be spouting racist and hateful rhetoric, do you honestly think you would say, oh well, I know McCain doesn't believe that and after all, that Reverand isn't going to get a cabinet post.


Straw, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think Rainman also hit the nail on the head. The issue is that Barak is an increasingly prominant and public figure, and represents himself with close friends and advisors very badly. It is a hallmark of his ability to be a President and YES if McCain had the same friends Ron would apply his double standard.
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: DSchrute
Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
DSchrute = Karl Rove.


"unAmerican bull@*$! artist"?
Please provide examples instead of using 2004 GOP spin terms.


Which part? Regardless of whether you dismess all the internet rumors about him not wearing the flag or putting his hand on his heart or whatever, we do know that his wife has only recently been proud to be an American, and his pastor/advisor/friend/mentor, whatever is very outspoken against the country. I'm sure you will say that he is totally against the views of the people closest to him.

As far as the bull@%&* artist part, let's face it, his major accomplishment to date has been sounding good reading a speach at the Democratic convention a few years ago, and his uncanny ability to slip the word 'change' into any sentence. And he's young and handsome, which is why I assume young people are so enamored by him.

As far as guns and religion not affecting people's lives, what planet, or bleeding heart liberal city, do you live on/in? There are many people in this country whose lives revolve around religion. And let's face it, to many, being able to protect their own family is even more important than national defense.

Obama, and a few of you, have basically stereotyped us as a bunch a illiterate rubes with a shotgun in one hand, and a rifle in the other. So I guess I can assume that you are all pinko, liberals in sandals and hemp shirts, that spend all of your time studying Scientology, recycling your socks, and apoligizing for being American.

My main issue is the economy, which was really humming along until the Democrats took control of Congress.....coincidence, I don't think so.


*ding* post of the week winner!
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 08:11 PM

Originally Posted By: DSchrute


Obama, and a few of you, have basically stereotyped us as a bunch a illiterate rubes with a shotgun in one hand, and a rifle in the other. So I guess I can assume that you are all pinko, liberals in sandals and hemp shirts, that spend all of your time studying Scientology, recycling your socks, and apoligizing for being American.

My main issue is the economy, which was really humming along until the Democrats took control of Congress.....coincidence, I don't think so.


First off, if you HONESTLY think that Obama is viewing you as a, point blank, hillbilly then you've missed the point entirely. I cannot see how Obama has viewed anyone in that light.

Second, you want to blame the Democrats for the economy? HAHA! That is a good one. Because it is all Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid's fault. Riiiiiight.

Ok, I can see that there will be no serious or well thought out conversation here.
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 08:14 PM

I love the economy statement. These liberal dunces have been blaming bush for things set into motion for before him, its only fair to do the same back and forth right?
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
if you HONESTLY think that Obama is viewing you as a, point blank, hillbilly then you've missed the point entirely. I cannot see how Obama has viewed anyone in that light.


You left out racist. Oh wait, that's not him, it's only his closest advisers who hate me for being white.
Posted By: Truffle Royale

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico

Ok, I can see that there will be no serious or well thought out conversation here.


Obviously, you never had any instruction in debate techniques, Neo. You are suppossed to argue FACTS vs FACTS. This is just a cheap shot and you know it. Stop railing at windmills and start telling us what you know Obama means by 'change' and what HE says in response to those who tell him he did more than 'misspeak' here. The man has admitted he's expressed these sentiments before and doesn't understand why he's taking such heat on it now. How do you defend that? Use FACTS now, not emotions.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 08:57 PM

Quote:
we do know that his wife has only recently been proud to be an American

is that what she really said?

maybe you *are* rove.

Quote:
whatever is very outspoken against the country

is he really so general? or is he more specific?

Quote:
being able to protect their own family is even more important than national defense.

my family has never owned a gun. we've always felt well-protected. economics plays a larger role. "south central" western PA must be a war zone...

Quote:
have basically stereotyped us as a bunch a illiterate rubes with a shotgun in one hand, and a rifle in the other

maybe more stereotyped as unable to comprehend plain language. he did say that because they felt helpless to to change the political landscape and depend on the government to be stewards of the economy so that is perhaps why they have hunkered down to focus on what they felt was under their own control.

Quote:
My main issue is the economy, which was really humming along until the Democrats took control of Congress.....coincidence, I don't think so.

because the economics of a housing and credit boom are so glib as to be explained by such a coincidence...
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 09:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
if you HONESTLY think that Obama is viewing you as a, point blank, hillbilly then you've missed the point entirely. I cannot see how Obama has viewed anyone in that light.


You left out racist. Oh wait, that's not him, it's only his closest advisers who hate me for being white.


so you REALLY think obama is racist? yes or no will suffice.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 09:04 PM

truffle, start reading his books/website/actually *listening* to his speeches and you will find out that his change isn't as vapid as you are implying. did YOU listen to how he has responded to the wright thing and the guns/religion thing?
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 09:05 PM


Ron, you may be more condescending than Obama, which is a major feat.

Quote:
is he really so general? or is he more specific?


And this may be your finest work.

Reminds me of that Seinfeld exchange between Jerry and Kramer:

"...or....am I so sane that I just blew your mind???"
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 09:09 PM

care to elaborate, mark?
Posted By: Truffle Royale

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 09:10 PM

Yes, I did listen to what he said. And I've been listening to how he's been trying to explain what he said since then.

Neo already had me read his website. I came away feeling like it was a typical political website. It pushed all the right buttons and talked about 'change' but never got into what/where/how/when/why this change would happen.

This isn't my first time voting so I know a bit about what I'm reading and what is a real expectation of what will really happen after an election.

I don't need to read or listen to admonish you or Neo to debate facts here and get off the emotional roller-coaster. Pretend you're trying to convince your boss of something that you believe will really improve the bank for both employees and customers. That's really what all the candidates are trying to do is sell their ideas you know.
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 09:14 PM

Ron, anyone for which you have to explain that much of what he says and does on such a consistent basis must either be illiterate or trying to cover up either his lies or his true statements that he has to backpedal about. And, obviously, the man is not illiterate.

Oh, wait, that's right, I forgot that what he says doesn't mean anything just like his voting record. I just remembered you revealing that to me.

Wow, where would I be without your guiding light, Ronno?
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 09:16 PM

Mark, do you think Ron would...... eh...... you know?
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 09:26 PM

ok, truffle. so let me guess, you DO find yourself inclined to believe what mccain says though, right?
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 09:32 PM

Quote:
anyone for which you have to explain that much of what he says and does on such a consistent basis must either be illiterate or trying to cover up either his lies or his true statements that he has to backpedal about

i hear what you are saying but you are wrong here for 2 reasons: 1) clearly people aren't able to understand him because he really is smarter than them (is this elitist or simply realistic? sounds a lot like the current debate...) and 2) people DO understand but they have certain political motivations that cause them to spin doctor so that people don't even have a chance to listen to what he has said.

Quote:
what he says doesn't mean anything just like his voting record.

i'm not sure if you are demonstrating 1, 2 or some combination of the above by saying this because i said the context of a voting record is important and what he said isn't what you are spinning it to mean.
Posted By: Truffle Royale

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 09:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
ok, truffle. so let me guess, you DO find yourself inclined to believe what mccain says though, right?
You just can't debate at all, can you? All you can do is deflect through attack.

I, like millions of other Americans, am desperately seeking an honest candidate who has some chance of doing what they say they will. I don't give a rat's patoot what party they come from. And again, like millions of other Americans, I'm not finding much to choose from.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 09:46 PM

I would go easy Ronnie, or are you just stiring the pot to stir? You wouldn't want that kind of rep, just saying...........
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 10:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Truffle Royale
Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
ok, truffle. so let me guess, you DO find yourself inclined to believe what mccain says though, right?
You just can't debate at all, can you? All you can do is deflect through attack.

I, like millions of other Americans, am desperately seeking an honest candidate who has some chance of doing what they say they will. I don't give a rat's patoot what party they come from. And again, like millions of other Americans, I'm not finding much to choose from.

what do you *really* want to debate though? you don't want to believe facts related to policies so we are at a crossroads.

so are you just not going to vote or is this going to be a "well i *reluctantly* decided to vote for john mccain because..." moment? i can't wait to hear your explanation of the because.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 10:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
I would go easy Ronnie, or are you just stiring the pot to stir? You wouldn't want that kind of rep, just saying...........

what are you talking about?
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 10:29 PM

Can ROn answer a simple question?

Is Reverand Wright a racist?
Posted By: rainman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 10:50 PM

Quote:
what do you *really* want to debate though? you don't want to believe facts related to policies so we are at a crossroads.


You have not presented or referred to any of those for her to believe or disbelieve.

I can see now why you like Obama so much. Your response to any belief that someone holds that's different is to say that they're ignorant, disingenuous, or simply prejudiced. How about actually addressing the merits of what she says?
Posted By: Truffle Royale

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 10:52 PM

Apparently not. All he can do is poke with another question. Ron, don't turn blue holding your breath waiting for me to answer your latest question. I've answered all the others but all you've done is poke and stir. Let's call it a day. You and Neo can climb back on the coaster tomorrow, ok?

Edited to add: Thank you, Rainman, for trying.
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 11:07 PM

This reminds me of a debate we had midway through 2007 on illegal immigration, and I quoted directly from the CBO data on costs of illegal immigration as well as projected costs for this, that etc...

and Ron answered that it was all opinion. Just did not have the integrity to say, "Hey, I see what this says, good data to back your positions..."

That is why people come to the conclusions that they do concerning El KaBONG.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 11:29 PM

Well we don't need little things like facts to get in the way. We just need change, post - partisanship, plain talking, etc.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 11:38 PM

Originally Posted By: rainman
Quote:
what do you *really* want to debate though? you don't want to believe facts related to policies so we are at a crossroads.


You have not presented or referred to any of those for her to believe or disbelieve.

I can see now why you like Obama so much. Your response to any belief that someone holds that's different is to say that they're ignorant, disingenuous, or simply prejudiced. How about actually addressing the merits of what she says?


how many times do people have to link things, obama make speeches or write books, have press conferences or engage in debates until it is enough? the point is i dont think any amount of showing is going to matter to one who doesn't want to see.

the "merits" of what she says is she doesn't believe them. i mean, ok. i am not faulting her for being cynical or not agreeing with nyting. i am simply asking why it seems nothing will be good enough for her and thus why she is acting like she is indecisive here.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/15/08 11:45 PM

i dont recall that debate but based on what you say, i would say that i likely questioned how they linked "costs of illegal immigration" or if they paid as much attention to the costs associated with removing immigrants; what would the net effect be?

i really don't care all that much what people here conclude about me. i want people to like me and i want to make people think but if they are so frustrated that they resort to ad hominem, so be it. it just means that there isn't a real response. you know?
Posted By: rainman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 12:06 AM

Quote:
if they are so frustrated that they resort to ad hominem, so be it.


Ron, do you not see that that is exactly what you have been doing? Not in a malicious way, but nevertheless.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 12:10 AM

i do.
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 12:17 AM

I am not sure I have seen a debate yet in this thread, I see one side trying to and the other stonewalling or attacking the other side when they don't have a leg to stand on. And you know who you are
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 12:46 AM

"I see one side trying to and the other stonewalling or attacking the other side when they don't have a leg to stand on" = "i don't like liberals and i will look at what obama says with cynicism or ignorance"

fyi people of BOLand
Posted By: Truffle Royale

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 12:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
i am simply asking why it seems nothing will be good enough for her and thus why she is acting like she is indecisive here.


'She' is still looking and reading and waiting for Mr. Obama to show how he can affect the changes he has based his entire campaign on.

'She' is also looking and reading and waiting for the other two left in the race to show their hand too.

'She' reads these threads to learn. Sometimes there is an iota of something of value amid all the jabbing and emotional rantings that all too often prevail.

What some of you don't seem to realize is that there are plenty on BOL and in America, for that matter, that watch and read and listen without ever posting. If you truly wanted to further your candidate's cause, you'd tirelessly repeat and publish their ideas and try to win more votes for them rather than alienate people with foolish tirades.
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 01:10 AM

you just proved my point Ron
Posted By: Blessed

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 01:25 AM

Very well said Truffle. Thank you for your comments.
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 01:39 AM

Thank goodness for Truffle being so well spoken!!!!!
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 02:30 AM

Originally Posted By: rainman
Quote:
if they are so frustrated that they resort to ad hominem, so be it.


Ron, do you not see that that is exactly what you have been doing? Not in a malicious way, but nevertheless.



isn't this called projection? Mrs. Clinton is especially adept at this, now y'all sleep well and peacefully in the greatest country in the world.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 03:16 AM

Barack Obama tries again to explain his condescending description of small-town Pennsylvanians, and manages again to pile on the condescension. RealClearPolitics has a video from Obama's meeting with the Philadelphia Inquirer's editorial board, in which he has this to say:

The problem was that I just mangled it, you know, which happens sometimes. The points that I were [sic] making were actually two separate points that got conflated. No. 1, that people who had felt abandoned by Washington and political leaders when it comes to an economy that's falling apart, they find stability in those things that they can count on: their faith, the traditions that have been passed down generation to generation--and in many rural communities, that includes hunting--their family, their community. Those are positive things.

They also are vulnerable to, you know, explanations for why the world is changing, and politicians seek to divide them. And sometimes politicians over the last decade have used antigay sentiment, sometimes they've used anti-immigrant sentiment, and, you know, there's a long history of quote-unquote wedge issues that I think distract from these very difficult issues that we have to deal with. And so my syntax was poor, but as a wise older woman who was talking to me the other day said, "You misspoke but you didn't lie."

With all the you-knows and the "misspoke," he's starting to sound like Hillary Clinton.


The above is attributable to James Taranto of the WSJ Online.

Mr. Taranto goes on to discuss the condescension behind the phrase "they are also vulnerable......."

Which being interpreted means the small town wahoos of Pennsylvania are too stooopid to understand me, plus they are so guilable as to believe evil Republicans that they become racist bigoted, and xenophobic.

Obama just needs to be quiet and walk away from this because the hole he is digging may not allow for a graceful recovery very soon.

This may not affect the primary voting that is left, but will surely affect his performance in the general election.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 03:31 AM

oh no! people who weren't going to vote for him aren't going to vote for him!

interesting though that obama did clarify but you STILL have to view it cynically. if this were a psychology professor saying this, there wouldn't be a peep. obama is a pretty bright guy. you have to be pretty bright to teach at chicago law so i am willing to give obama the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his analysis regarding the human psychology related to his hypotheses.

truffle, i'm sorry that i offended you. it just doesn't seem from your comments that there is any real indecision in there. best of luck finding what you are looking for in the remaining 2 candidates. seriously.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 01:38 PM

hey Ron, is that the same school Anita Hill was a prof?
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 01:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
obama is a pretty bright guy. you have to be pretty bright to teach at chicago law so i am willing to give obama the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his analysis regarding the human psychology related to his hypotheses.


OK, Ron, this is where I have a significant problem.

I don't care how intelligent he is, and I don't think he has a doctorate in psychology, so why is his thought process regarding "small town America" any more valid than mine or yours?

I'm not giving up my ability to think or take care of myself to someone else (excluding essential items such as the military, etc.), whether it be Obama or any other politician.

And I think that is an underlying issue between a liberal and a conservative at its very core, but that's a different conversation.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 02:56 PM

I ask Ron again,

Is Reverand Wright a racist?
Posted By: Bankster

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 03:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
Quote:
we do know that his wife has only recently been proud to be an American

is that what she really said?

maybe you *are* rove.

Quote:
whatever is very outspoken against the country

is he really so general? or is he more specific?

Quote:
being able to protect their own family is even more important than national defense.

my family has never owned a gun. we've always felt well-protected. economics plays a larger role. "south central" western PA must be a war zone...

Quote:
have basically stereotyped us as a bunch a illiterate rubes with a shotgun in one hand, and a rifle in the other

maybe more stereotyped as unable to comprehend plain language. he did say that because they felt helpless to to change the political landscape and depend on the government to be stewards of the economy so that is perhaps why they have hunkered down to focus on what they felt was under their own control.

Quote:
My main issue is the economy, which was really humming along until the Democrats took control of Congress.....coincidence, I don't think so.

because the economics of a housing and credit boom are so glib as to be explained by such a coincidence...



You're right, she said, for the first time in my life, I am proud to be an American. Apparently the shame of being an American has finally lifted.

To be less generally more specific, I can't confirm or deny, but on the contrary, I think he said 'kill whitey'.

As far as the war zone thing, WHAT??? As someone who has never owned a gun, and only fired a gun once while one my honeymoon, I feel odd educating on the desire to bear arms, but to enlighten those living in ivory towers: People want guns to protect their families, not because bullets are flying around the neighborhood, this isn't Philadelphia, but from that one drug addict that decides to break into your home, or that one crazed loner that tries to rape your wife, or that one child molester that targets your daughter.

As far as the economy comment, I'm glad that one open-minded indivudual saw the irony in the statement, as George Bush has been blamed for everything but the weather, oh yeah, Al Gore has blamed him for that too.

I thought the use of the word glib was banned after Tom Cruise buthchered it.

Wow, some liberal Penn State professor must have really gotten into your head.
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 03:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
Originally Posted By: Bengalsfan
Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
if you HONESTLY think that Obama is viewing you as a, point blank, hillbilly then you've missed the point entirely. I cannot see how Obama has viewed anyone in that light.


You left out racist. Oh wait, that's not him, it's only his closest advisers who hate me for being white.


so you REALLY think obama is racist? yes or no will suffice.


Yes, I do.

His closest advisor is a racist, and very vocally so. Does he say anything to distance himself? Nope, not until someone catches him and it hurts his campaign.

He calls his white grandmother a racist and says she is a typical white person. He talks about small town middle americans as if they are all hillbillies.

In his own writings, he admits that at the age of 12 or 13 he tried to avoid letting anyone know his mother was white.

In high school, he and his black friends would speak about whites with racist tones. "White folks this and White folks that".

If you read his book "Dreams From My Father", published before he was involved in politics, you can see how closely his views are to Reverend White's.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 03:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
my family has never owned a gun. we've always felt well-protected.


That's the way it goes...until one day you don't.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 04:22 PM

i've never seen you say something less profound, j. i am actually pretty disappointed.
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 05:03 PM

I realize he is dismissed by the left as an "Uncle Tom" (read: black conservative), but here is Thomas Sowell's take on Obama's Speech. A Living Lie
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 05:10 PM

Whoa Whoa, because someone has the credentials to teach law that person knows human psychology. Not even close. Those are two totally different studies. Ron's man crush is overwhelming.
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 05:33 PM

Originally Posted By: BongZilla
I realize he is dismissed by the left as an "Uncle Tom" (read: black conservative), but here is Thomas Sowell's take on Obama's Speech. A Living Lie


Worth the read, Bong(bolding and color my own emphasis):

A living lie

By Thomas Sowell

An e-mail from a reader said that, while Hillary Clinton tells lies, Barack Obama is himself a lie. That is becoming painfully apparent with each new revelation of how drastically his carefully crafted image this election year contrasts with what he has actually been saying and doing for many years.

Senator Obama's election year image is that of a man who can bring the country together, overcoming differences of party or race, as well as solving our international problems by talking with Iran and other countries with which we are at odds, and performing other miscellaneous miracles as needed.

There is, of course, not a speck of evidence that Obama has ever transcended party differences in the United States Senate. Voting records analyzed by the National Journal show him to be the farthest left of anyone in the Senate. Nor has he sponsored any significant bipartisan legislation — nor any other significant legislation, for that matter.

Senator Obama is all talk — glib talk, exciting talk, confident talk, but still just talk.

Some of his recent talk in San Francisco has stirred up controversy because it revealed yet another blatant contradiction between Barack Obama's public image and his reality.

Speaking privately to supporters in heavily left-liberal San Francisco, Obama let down his hair and described working class people in Pennsylvania as so "bitter" that they "cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them."

Like so much that Obama has said and done over the years, this is standard stuff on the far left, where guns and religion are regarded as signs of psychological dysfunction — and where opinions different from those of the left are ascribed to emotions ("bitter" in this case), rather than to arguments that need to be answered.

Like so many others on the left, Obama rejects "stereotypes" when they are stereotypes he doesn't like but blithely throws around his own stereotypes about "a typical white person" or "bitter" gun-toting, religious and racist working class people.

In politics, the clearer a statement is, the more certain it is to be followed by a "clarification," when people react adversely to what was plainly said.

Obama and his supporters were still busy "clarifying" Jeremiah Wright's very plain statements when it suddenly became necessary to "clarify" Senator Obama's own statements in San Francisco.

People who have been cheering whistle-blowers for years have suddenly denounced the person who blew the whistle on what Obama said in private that is so contradictory to what he has been saying in public.

However inconsistent Obama's words, his behavior has been remarkably consistent over the years. He has sought out and joined with the radical, anti-Western left, whether Jeremiah Wright, William Ayers of the terrorist Weatherman underground or pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli Rashid Khalidi.

Obama is also part of a long tradition on the left of being for the working class in the abstract, or as people potentially useful for the purposes of the left, but having disdain or contempt for them as human beings.

Karl Marx said, "The working class is revolutionary or it is nothing." In other words, they mattered only in so far as they were willing to carry out the Marxist agenda.

Fabian socialist George Bernard Shaw included the working class among the "detestable" people who "have no right to live." He added: "I should despair if I did not know that they will all die presently, and that there is no need on earth why they should be replaced by people like themselves."

Similar statements on the left go back as far as Rousseau in the 18th century and come forward into our own times.

It is understandable that young people are so strongly attracted to Obama. Youth is another name for inexperience — and experience is what is most needed when dealing with skillful and charismatic demagogues.

Those of us old enough to have seen the type again and again over the years can no longer find them exciting. Instead, they are as tedious as they are dangerous
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 06:33 PM

Quote:
At the moment, critics have tried to diminish Senator Obama through the exaggeration of certain of his comments and relationships. While these matters are worthy of some discussion, they have been ripped out of the context and fabric of the man's life and vision, so well described in his excellent book, Dreams of My Father, often in order to distract us from discussing the real issues: war and peace, the fight for economic and racial justice, reaffirming our Constitution, and the protection and enhancement of our environment


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/16/bruce-springsteen-endorse_n_96933.html

Ahhh. A sense of nirvana for my simple minded self.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 06:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
i've never seen you say something less profound, j. i am actually pretty disappointed.


I've never seen you show greater comprehension. Now that's disappointing.
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Quote:
At the moment, critics have tried to diminish Senator Obama through the exaggeration of certain of his comments and relationships. While these matters are worthy of some discussion, they have been ripped out of the context and fabric of the man's life and vision, so well described in his excellent book, Dreams of My Father, often in order to distract us from discussing the real issues: war and peace, the fight for economic and racial justice, reaffirming our Constitution, and the protection and enhancement of our environment


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/16/bruce-springsteen-endorse_n_96933.html

Ahhh. A sense of nirvana for my simple minded self.


Wow, now I KNOW to avoid backing Obama. This is the same guy who though Mr. Wishy Washy himself, John Kerry was a great candidate.

Fact: Obama seeks to "fix" the racial divide by exaggerating it.

Fact: Obama is charismatic, and says nothing concrete most of the time, and when he says something concrete, it is usually quite scary.
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 06:48 PM

Originally Posted By: TheChangeinator
Originally Posted By: BongZilla
I realize he is dismissed by the left as an "Uncle Tom" (read: black conservative), but here is Thomas Sowell's take on Obama's Speech. A Living Lie


Worth the read, Bong(bolding and color my own emphasis):

A living lie

By Thomas Sowell

An e-mail from a reader said that, while Hillary Clinton tells lies, Barack Obama is himself a lie. That is becoming painfully apparent with each new revelation of how drastically his carefully crafted image this election year contrasts with what he has actually been saying and doing for many years.

Senator Obama's election year image is that of a man who can bring the country together, overcoming differences of party or race, as well as solving our international problems by talking with Iran and other countries with which we are at odds, and performing other miscellaneous miracles as needed.

There is, of course, not a speck of evidence that Obama has ever transcended party differences in the United States Senate. Voting records analyzed by the National Journal show him to be the farthest left of anyone in the Senate. Nor has he sponsored any significant bipartisan legislation — nor any other significant legislation, for that matter.

Senator Obama is all talk — glib talk, exciting talk, confident talk, but still just talk.

Some of his recent talk in San Francisco has stirred up controversy because it revealed yet another blatant contradiction between Barack Obama's public image and his reality.

Speaking privately to supporters in heavily left-liberal San Francisco, Obama let down his hair and described working class people in Pennsylvania as so "bitter" that they "cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them."

Like so much that Obama has said and done over the years, this is standard stuff on the far left, where guns and religion are regarded as signs of psychological dysfunction — and where opinions different from those of the left are ascribed to emotions ("bitter" in this case), rather than to arguments that need to be answered.

Like so many others on the left, Obama rejects "stereotypes" when they are stereotypes he doesn't like but blithely throws around his own stereotypes about "a typical white person" or "bitter" gun-toting, religious and racist working class people.

In politics, the clearer a statement is, the more certain it is to be followed by a "clarification," when people react adversely to what was plainly said.

Obama and his supporters were still busy "clarifying" Jeremiah Wright's very plain statements when it suddenly became necessary to "clarify" Senator Obama's own statements in San Francisco.

People who have been cheering whistle-blowers for years have suddenly denounced the person who blew the whistle on what Obama said in private that is so contradictory to what he has been saying in public.

However inconsistent Obama's words, his behavior has been remarkably consistent over the years. He has sought out and joined with the radical, anti-Western left, whether Jeremiah Wright, William Ayers of the terrorist Weatherman underground or pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli Rashid Khalidi.

Obama is also part of a long tradition on the left of being for the working class in the abstract, or as people potentially useful for the purposes of the left, but having disdain or contempt for them as human beings.

Karl Marx said, "The working class is revolutionary or it is nothing." In other words, they mattered only in so far as they were willing to carry out the Marxist agenda.

Fabian socialist George Bernard Shaw included the working class among the "detestable" people who "have no right to live." He added: "I should despair if I did not know that they will all die presently, and that there is no need on earth why they should be replaced by people like themselves."

Similar statements on the left go back as far as Rousseau in the 18th century and come forward into our own times.

It is understandable that young people are so strongly attracted to Obama. Youth is another name for inexperience — and experience is what is most needed when dealing with skillful and charismatic demagogues.

Those of us old enough to have seen the type again and again over the years can no longer find them exciting. Instead, they are as tedious as they are dangerous


That was GREAT, thanks.
Posted By: BurntSienna

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 07:16 PM

Thanks for posting Sowell's commentary. Very interesting reading. I tend to agree with Truffle Royale in that I simply want a person with integrity/someone who tells the truth leading my country. It's painfully clear that Mrs. Clinton changes and denies actual facts whenever politically convenient. I have been hugely, painfully disappointed in Mr. Obama's statements in recent weeks ("typical white person"? Wow). I have been left spending some of my time re-reading Obama's writings and comparing them with his voting records and recent speeches and actions, and I have to say that I've largely come to the same conclusions as Mr. Sowell. Now, I am turning my presidential candidate attention to examining Mr. McCain and his positions and actions and words. Overall, it has been a disappointing year for American politics IMHO. I love this country deeply, but I have no great love for these 3 candidates at present; it makes me feel a bit gloomy about the political future at the national level. Fortunately, much political change can be effected at the local level, so I encourage everyone to get involved, get educated and VOTE in each and every election for your local leaders not just a presidential candidate.
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 07:18 PM

Very true Sienna. The legislative elections, and the local state senates etc are very important too.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 07:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Jokerman
Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
i've never seen you say something less profound, j. i am actually pretty disappointed.


I've never seen you show greater comprehension. Now that's disappointing.

i figured you'd say something like that in response. would you care to elaborate on how "someday you might" is more than a reference to probabilities?
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 07:39 PM

probability vs. possibility is somewhat dependent upon whom you pass on the street, ala that typical old white grandmotherly person, no?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 07:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
i figured you'd say something like that in response. would you care to elaborate on how "someday you might" is more than a reference to probabilities?


And I figured that rather than addressing the point, you'd deflect with some question that you find incredibly profound, but which makes about as much sense to us mere mortals out here in the working world as a Citi SIV.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 07:58 PM

haven't we talked more than enough about the philosophical pro/cons of arming the public?

i understand that many people like the idea of "new quahog" wherein there is:

a chicken in every pot and a cap in every a**.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 08:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
haven't we talked more than enough about the philosophical pro/cons of arming the public?


If we have, why are you continuing to argue about it, moRon?
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 08:09 PM

luckily for you that clever html usage will go unnoticed by deputy dog pale. (not that i care though. i thought it was funny)
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 08:17 PM

what does it mean? can I find it in the UD?

you, above only Neo and Barbarian know that I protect you silly little behinds more than any other mod, so show some respect!

and why are you not answering any of my questions in this thread?

you have a very bad habit of doing that
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 08:24 PM

pale, forget about it. i have no beef with you.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 08:25 PM

I don't need protecting!
I went to a conservative Catholic college for 4 years. You think the things I hear here are any less severe than what what I heard there?
I was called a baby killer within 8 hours of arriving at college.
What these folks throw at me politically ain't nothing!
Posted By: Truffle Royale

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 08:54 PM

Enough already! Pale is talking about protecting you from being deleted and/or thrown off BOL. Your constant provocation is wearing thin with a lot of people here. I've tried to suggest that you debate the issues instead of pulling out page after page of published opinions in an effort to raise the hackles of others or merely throw more questions out without answering those posed to you. Here's my last hint: If you sense the tone of a political debate is getting angry, it's time to back off.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 08:59 PM

TR:
Is that a threat to delete me from BOL, or a promise?
My constant provocation? Like I provoke folks around here more than those who CONSTANTLY insult users here.

My pulling out page after page of published opinions is NO DIFFERENT than when AMLFella posts opinion articles from a conservative outlet, or when _X_ does the same. Raise the hackles? No. Respond to the hackles of others? Yes.

I answer questions, it is not my fault that some feel an answer not to their liking is not an answer at all.

I'm not angry at anyone here posting these things. We're all entitled to our opinions.

But I'm calling your bluff. If you want to throw me off BOL, go ahead and try. Last time I checked though, I've done nothing worse in terms of political (or even personal) attacks than everyother poster on here.

There's my piece about that.
Posted By: Truffle Royale

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 09:06 PM

You seem to think my post is all about you, Neo, which it's not. Nor did I say anything about banning you. I merely explained PR's comment. I'm no worry to you because I'm not afraid to tell you what I think. Just remember...you're not the only person who can hit a notify moderator button. And with that, I'll step out of this discussion.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? *DELETED* - 04/16/08 09:09 PM

Post deleted by Pale Rider
Posted By: Truffle Royale

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 09:13 PM

I just hit the last reply button on a thread, Neo. Lots of people do that and then refer back to whatever they're answering. From one Catholic school kid to another, your guilt is getting the better of you.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 09:14 PM

Aww! C'mon Pale!
No fun!
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 09:14 PM

post deleted in an attempt to protect my young friend
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 09:17 PM


Well, if I need someone on my side, might as well be the guy who think he is Clint Eastwood. LOLoad.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 09:47 PM

Obama gets the endorsement of the American Hunters and Shooters Association.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ray-schoenke/hunters-and-shooters-supp_b_97028.html

AHSA Endorses Obama
Obama: He "gets it"
Wednesday, Apr 16, 2008

Quote:
Today, as President of the American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA), I announced our endorsement of Senator Barack Obama for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States. Because the gun issue has recently become a factor in the Democratic primary in Pennsylvania, I want to share the remarks I made today:

As a gun rights organization we have not come to this decision lightly. We were formed two years ago because our research shows that millions of gun owners wanted a change. They not only wanted an organization that would protect their gun rights but an organization that was also committed to the protection of their communities as well as the protection of our lands. We reached out to the Obama campaign several weeks ago to offer our support and approval as was reported by Paul Bedard of US News and World Report. We believe recent attacks on Senator Obama's stand on the 2nd Amendment and his commitment to our hunting and shooting heritage are unfair and American Hunters and Shooters Association is stepping up to set the record straight.

Senator Obama has clearly demonstrated his commitment to the 2nd Amendment by his vote in support of the Vitter amendment to HR 5441, the Department of Homeland Security Appropriations bill of 2007. This amendment prevents the Government from confiscating guns in a time of crisis or emergency. Imagine how the citizens felt during Hurricane Katrina when government agents kicked in doors to confiscate law abiding citizens' guns at a time when they needed them the most. We know Senator Obama "gets it." To say that he is an elitist is patently ridiculous. To hunters and shooters everywhere, Senator Obama's vote demonstrated a fundamental understanding of the meaning of the 2nd Amendment which means he recognizes the individual right of all citizens to keep and bear arms. Senator Clinton, on the hand, failed to grasp the importance of this critical issue to hunters and shooters and voted against this Amendment. She turned her back on America's gun owners. In addition, Senator Obama's commitment to conservation and protection of our natural resources and access to public lands demonstrates to us his commitment to America's hunting and shooting heritage. Senator Obama will be a strong and authentic voice for America's hunters and shooters and it is with great pleasure that we endorse his candidacy.

-Ray Schoenke


Must be some out of touch, liberal elitist group.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 09:55 PM

LOLOAD



Google ol' Ray Schoenke Neo

this guys financially supports Handgun Control, Inc. and America Coming Together




and he has run for democratic office, so ya he is out of touch.

and how dare you even mention this group so close to the passing of Charelton Heston!!!!
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 09:55 PM

American Hunters and Shooters Association
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA) is an association of hunters and shooters in the United States that was founded in 2005. As an advocacy group, it presents itself as a force of moderation and "common sense" in the debate over gun politics in the United States. Its critics claim that AHSA is a front organization aimed at dividing gun owners by pointing to AHSA members' bias against private ownership of the most popular modern sporting firearms, and note AHSA leaders have both donated money to gun control groups[1] and maintain close ties to individuals and organizations who advocate strict gun control
Posted By: doobydoobydoo

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 09:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
LOLOAD



Google ol' Ray Schoenke Neo

this guys financially supports Handgun Control, Inc. and America Coming Together




and he has run for democratic office, so ya he is out of touch.

and how dare you even mention this group so close to the passing of Charelton Heston!!!!

i think Neo was employing the age old rhetorical device known as sarcasm...
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 09:58 PM

Pale, he only played Moses. He wasn't ACTUALLY Moses.
Although, you were there, was he just like the real thing?
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 09:59 PM

Originally Posted By: DoobyDoobyDoo
Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
LOLOAD



Google ol' Ray Schoenke Neo

this guys financially supports Handgun Control, Inc. and America Coming Together




and he has run for democratic office, so ya he is out of touch.

and how dare you even mention this group so close to the passing of Charelton Heston!!!!

i think Neo was employing the age old rhetorical device known as sarcasm...



I don't think so....
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/16/08 09:59 PM

sorry DDD, the irony went over my head
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 01:06 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Obama gets the endorsement of the American Hunters and Shooters Association....Must be some out of touch, liberal elitist group.


Nice of you to admit up front what MB Guy had to look up to confirm.

But did you also know that Obama received the coveted Hamas endorsment?
Posted By: A_G

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 02:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Truffle Royale
Enough already! Pale is talking about protecting you from being deleted and/or thrown off BOL. Your constant provocation is wearing thin with a lot of people here. I've tried to suggest that you debate the issues instead of pulling out page after page of published opinions in an effort to raise the hackles of others or merely throw more questions out without answering those posed to you. Here's my last hint: If you sense the tone of a political debate is getting angry, it's time to back off.


ding ding ding.

we have the best post ever, folks!!!!!

EVER!

(and no there's nothing sarcastic about my post)
Posted By: kitten

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 02:23 PM

i second the nomination, ag!!!! let's put it to a vote.
Posted By: doobydoobydoo

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 02:24 PM

No no....
Posted By: doobydoobydoo

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 02:24 PM

the best post ever is in the HRC thread i believe
Posted By: A_G

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 02:24 PM

would you start a survery, please? idk how.
Posted By: A_G

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 02:25 PM

::runs wheelies over to HRC thread::

Hey there, DDD.
Posted By: A_G

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 02:42 PM

And then a hero comes along
With the strength to carry on
And you cast your fears aside
And you know you can survive
So when you feel like hope is gone
Look inside you and be strong
And you'll finally see the truth
That a hero lies in you
Posted By: A_G

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 02:42 PM

And then a hero comes along
With the strength to carry on
And you cast your fears aside
And you know you can survive
So when you feel like hope is gone
Look inside you and be strong
And you'll finally see the truth
That a hero lies in you
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 07:44 PM

is the pope racist?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080417/ap_on_re_us/pope_us
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 07:52 PM

There's a difference between stating historical facts, and histerically claiming you hate white america.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 07:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla


Comparing Reverand Wright to a KKK member is a poor analogy, but this is a good analogy?

Is Reverand Wright a racist? I notice you never answered the question.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 08:05 PM

i did. is said he sure sounds like it.

my point in posting this is that the pope recognizes unequal footing.
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 08:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
i did. is said he sure sounds like it.

my point in posting this is that the pope recognizes unequal footing IN THE PAST.


There, I fixed it for you. Now let me ask you this, who's better off, the "african americans" descended from slaves who were mistreated, or the africans in Sudan, still there? Or in most parts of Africa for that matter?

Next question... Are you unaware that whites in this country have been treated just as badly in our past?
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 08:13 PM

to summarize your couple of your points here: obama is a black racist in our now color-blind society.

got it.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 08:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
i did. is said he sure sounds like it.

my point in posting this is that the pope recognizes unequal footing.


If there is unequal footing, how can Wright be a racist? The suffering of his ancestors and himself at the hands of white people means he is allowed to hate white people, doesn't it?

And if Wright is a racist, as you say it sounds like, you are not bothered in the slightest that Obama seeks spiritual guidance from a racist.

And finally, if Wright is a racist, then my analogy to McCain attending a church that is aligned with the KKK would be appropriate.

So I think you have a lot of backpeddaling to do or yhou can just stick to your inconsistent guns (as usual).
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 09:00 PM

Careful now Straw, careful, Tread lightly. Pure logic does not go over well with Ron ya know.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 09:12 PM

No it doesn't but his new tactic is to ignore the post, and try to start the conversation in another thread on another day.

I guess it beats his old tactic of posting meaningless gibberish and then giving himself a point.
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 09:18 PM

Straw, just wait for the "point flipping".

Point Flipping: A common tactic of Ron when being owned on any topic to flip the point of the argument to something slightly related, or totally unrelated. Then to deny the original point.

Never, will Ron agree, that anything associated with his man crush might be wrong.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/17/08 11:10 PM

Mr. Obama has been whining today about his treatment by the mods in the debate last night.

this is going to be a great 4 years should be steal the vote this fall
Posted By: GuitarDude

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
to summarize your couple of your points here: obama is a black racist in our now color-blind society.

got it.


To summarize your points:

1. A black person cannot be racist.

2. Making a problem seem worse than it is and then pretending you can solve it shows leadership ability.

3. Someone's voting record and the people from whom he seeks guidance do not reflect whatsoever on that person's goals, intents, and beliefs.

4. Your favored candidate should not have to answer for the things he says because if it makes him look bad, he meant something else (refer to #1).

One standard will do just fine.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 01:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
Mr. Obama has been whining today about his treatment by the mods in the debate last night.

this is going to be a great 4 years should be steal the vote this fall


I'd complain too.
It was a complete attempt at character assasination.
To the point where the former Clinton staffer moderating the debate got his questions DIRECTLY from right wing radio.
No talks about Condi Rice moderating meetings approving the use of torture, but we have to worry about Obama wearing a flag pin.
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 01:52 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
[quote=Pale Rider]Mr. Obama has been whining today about his treatment by the mods in the debate last night.

this is going to be a great 4 years should be steal the vote this fall


Quote:
I'd complain too.
It was a complete attempt at character assasination.
To the point where the former Clinton staffer moderating the debate got his questions DIRECTLY from right wing radio.

A question concerning a presidential candidate's affiliation with domestic terrorists does not concern anyone on the left, but the fact that a right-wing radio host raised the question is of concern - Really, God truly help this country

Quote:
No talks about Condi Rice moderating meetings approving the use of torture, but we have to worry about Obama wearing a flag pin.


Non-sequitur and non-substantial. Condi Rice is not a presedential candidate, and the Dems were quite aware of the 3 time use use of waterboarding. Try to keep to the real issue, and his affiliation with domestic terrorists is a real BIG issue.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 01:57 PM

The SecState moderating discussions of torture isn't substantial?
I'm sorry, but I'd like to know where the next President (HRC, Obama, or McCain) stand where it comes to torture. I mean, there are still some important POLICY questions that need to be answered. Were any of you aware that HRC wanted to declare war on Iran? You might have missed it. It was buried between flag pins and if Jeremiah Wright was as patriotic as Obama.
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:19 PM

Quote:
Were any of you aware that HRC wanted to declare war on Iran?


The truth is that Obama said that an attack on Israel "would be an act of aggression that I would consider unacceptable, and the United States would take appropriate action." while Clinton said that "an attack on Israel would incur massive retaliation from the United States".
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:26 PM

Quote:
Condi Rice is not a presedential candidate

i heard that rev wright wasn't a presidential candidate, either. how can this be true?
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:28 PM

Obama wanted to go to war with pakistan, I think that Iran is a better choice than pakistan
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
Were any of you aware that HRC wanted to declare war on Iran?


The truth is that Obama said that an attack on Israel "would be an act of aggression that I would consider unacceptable, and the United States would take appropriate action." while Clinton said that "an attack on Israel would incur massive retaliation from the United States".


And in that, HRC is actually showing some balls and should be acknowledged for it.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:29 PM

Clinton also said she'd be willing to make the US responsible for "protecting" other Middle Eastern countries if they cede any desires for a nuclear program.

I'm sorry, but this is MORE imperialistic and far reaching than the Bush policies have been.

When did the US become the police officer of the world? (rhetorical)
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:30 PM

Originally Posted By: kms
Obama wanted to go to war with pakistan, I think that Iran is a better choice than pakistan


And the Bush administration, rightfully, took out al Qaeda leaders in tribal Pakistan in the SAME way Obama proposed. Has Bush declared war on Pakistan?
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
Quote:
Condi Rice is not a presedential candidate

i heard that rev wright wasn't a presidential candidate, either. how can this be true?

No the racists just counsels a Presidential Candidate. How can this be true?
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:33 PM

"And the Bush administration, rightfully, took out al Qaeda leaders in tribal Pakistan "


You sure they are all gone? Becaue OBL is there and he hasnt been taken out...
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:34 PM

And we have criminals advising the ACTUAL President. What's your point?
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:35 PM

Originally Posted By: kms
"And the Bush administration, rightfully, took out al Qaeda leaders in tribal Pakistan "


You sure they are all gone? Becaue OBL is there and he hasnt been taken out...


Did I say they were all gone?
And how do you know UBL is there? Back in the intel game? I thought you couldn't share...

But, if UBL is there...isn't that a sign that Obama's plan for taking out al Qaeda in Pakistan is the RIGHT move considering Pakistan hasn't done jack to take out UBL since 2001?
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:38 PM

You just dont get it, pakistan is allowing us to be there peacfully so we can hunt the man down, if we go to war with them
I don't think they are going to allow that anymore.
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:39 PM

and to add it is our fight with UBL not theirs
Posted By: doobydoobydoo

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:41 PM

I thought this thread was about TheIncredbileComplyGuy
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:41 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
And we have criminals advising the ACTUAL President. What's your point?

Really? Provide your evidence, not your far-left filtered partisan psychobable, evidence, evidence.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: kms
You just dont get it, pakistan is allowing us to be there peacfully so we can hunt the man down, if we go to war with them
I don't think they are going to allow that anymore.


No one is saying we're going to war with Pakistan.
Bush in 2006 said he would act to take out al Qaeda leaders in Pakistan without Pakistan's approval.
Obama has said the same thing.
And we've been launching attacks in Pakistan via drones, with indirect approval from Musharraf.

So how is Obama 2008 different than Bush 2006?
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
Were any of you aware that HRC wanted to declare war on Iran?


The truth is that Obama said that an attack on Israel "would be an act of aggression that I would consider unacceptable, and the United States would take appropriate action." while Clinton said that "an attack on Israel would incur massive retaliation from the United States".
I actually agree with this, but I would go further. I would say that an attack on Israel should be considered an attack on the United States.
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:47 PM

Quote:
this is MORE imperialistic and far reaching than the Bush policies have been


Defending against an attack is not "imperialistic" in any reasonable definition of the word.
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:47 PM

That is not what Obama said and you know it.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:48 PM

Originally Posted By: TheChanginator
Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
And we have criminals advising the ACTUAL President. What's your point?

Really? Provide your evidence, not your far-left filtered partisan psychobable, evidence, evidence.


Oh gee. I don't know.
The US Attorney issue.
The political prosecution of the Governor of Alabama.
Warrantless wiretapping.
Scooter Libby (office of the VPOTUS, but you get the point).

But I guess these things aren't important, because the people responsible for these acts all wear flag pins.
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:51 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Originally Posted By: TheChanginator
Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
And we have criminals advising the ACTUAL President. What's your point?

Really? Provide your evidence, not your far-left filtered partisan psychobable, evidence, evidence.


Oh gee. I don't know.
The US Attorney issue.
The political prosecution of the Governor of Alabama.
Warrantless wiretapping.
Scooter Libby (office of the VPOTUS, but you get the point).

But I guess these things aren't important, because the people responsible for these acts all wear flag pins.

Not only are they not important, but are pure far-left specualtion and nothing more, but keep providing the far-left psychobable, and keep believing it too, it actually helps the conservative cause that reasonable Americans spot this for what it is.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:52 PM

Originally Posted By: kms
That is not what Obama said and you know it.


Quote:
Obama said if elected in November 2008 he would be willing to attack inside Pakistan with or without approval from the Pakistani government, a move that would likely cause anxiety in the already troubled region.

"If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will," Obama said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0132206420070801

and as recent as March of this year,
Quote:
The choice is not between Musharraf and Islamic extremists. As the recent legislative elections showed, there is a moderate majority of Pakistanis, and they are the people we need on our side to win the war against al Qaeda. That is why we should dramatically increase our support for the Pakistani people – for education, economic development, and democratic institutions. That child in Pakistan must know that we want a better life for him, that America is on his side, and that his interest in opportunity is our interest as well. That’s the promise that America must stand for.

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/03/obama_on_pakistan.php
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:54 PM

I'm sorry. Scooter Libby was indeed convicted.
And Alberto Gonzalez was forced to resign.

Me thinks those actions show that there was more this than "far-left speculation".
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:55 PM

"If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will," Obama said."


This is the equivelant of decalring war on pakistan, it would really suck too because they have nukes
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:56 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
I'm sorry. Scooter Libby was indeed convicted.
And Alberto Gonzalez was forced to resign.

Me thinks those actions show that there was more this than "far-left speculation".

Yes, you are correct on that, there was more than far-left specualtion. There was a political witchhunt by the far-left.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 02:59 PM

Originally Posted By: kms
"If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will," Obama said."


This is the equivelant of decalring war on pakistan, it would really suck too because they have nukes


Explain to me then, what the 1/29/08 CIA attack that killed Abu Laith al-Libi was? Because by your definition, since US officials claim that this was "an unusual degree of autonomy by the CIA inside Pakistan", we've declared war already.
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:04 PM

Sorry, I must have missed the declaration of war against pakistan.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:05 PM

sorry, i must have missed the declaration of war against iraq and pakistan.
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:10 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/19/sprj.irq.int.bush.transcript/

Here you go Ron.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:11 PM

Originally Posted By: kms
Sorry, I must have missed the declaration of war against pakistan.


You're so blinded.
You've said that Obama's comment of "If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will," is "the equivelant of decalring war on pakistan".

Since the CIA did act against high value targets in 1/29/2008...we've already declared war...base on your own equivelaqncy tests.
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:14 PM

But Musharraf approved of thos actions, there are many he will not and if we cross these lines we will be declaring war with Pakistan.I am thinking you are the one that doesn't get it.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:14 PM



And here you go Kori, since you seem to be lacking in Constitutional knowledge.

"The Congress shall have Power...To declare War"
http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:14 PM

And you calling me vblind is like the pot calling the kettle black
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:15 PM

And Obama hasn't said he wouldn't seek Musharraf's approval.
He said that if Pakistan doesn't act, we will.
Which AGAIN is what President Bush, your hero because he came and saw you, said in 2006.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/20/obamas-pakistan-position-endorsed-by-bush-in-06/
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:19 PM

Bush is not my hero, but my president!


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFDA1F30F936A25751C1A966958260

Ecerpt-"The President as Commander in Chief is authorized to conduct war. Aggressive Presidents have managed to wage executive wars, often because Congress has been unwilling to assert its power. But those failures do not change the Constitution"
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: kms
Bush is not my hero, but my president!


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFDA1F30F936A25751C1A966958260

Ecerpt-"The President as Commander in Chief is authorized to conduct war. Aggressive Presidents have managed to wage executive wars, often because Congress has been unwilling to assert its power. But those failures do not change the Constitution"


Why are you wasting your time with willful ignorance Kori? You are a former intelligence officer arguing a subject you actually lived with someone who has zero background on the subject. Let it go, really.
Posted By: HappyGilmore

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:25 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
I'm sorry. Scooter Libby was indeed convicted.
And Alberto Gonzalez was forced to resign.

Me thinks those actions show that there was more this than "far-left speculation".


but your quote was that they were advising the President as criminals. Libby resigned before he was convicted, and I don't believe he has been advising the President since then. If you can find credible evidence that he was, I'd be interested to see it. As far as Gonzalez resigning, I don't recall any criminal charges or prosecution at all. Remember, one of the great things about our Country is innocent until proven guilty.
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:26 PM

I suppose that would be in my best interest, I would hate to say something I shouldnt, just to prove my point
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
Quote:
Condi Rice is not a presedential candidate

i heard that rev wright wasn't a presidential candidate, either. how can this be true?


I heard that a Presidential candidate keeps close council with a racist. How can this be?

I also notice you ignored my points. If I was as childish as you, I guess I would give myself a score.
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:34 PM

Geez Neo I guess you are free to decide who is a crimal or not. Even when the Surprems Court disagrees with you. Amazing your unbias forsight.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:34 PM

“I'll be honest with you, I did not become aware of them until I started running for president. And at that point, yes, I had conversations with him, which I shared with him my deep concerns,” Obama said. “The caricature that's been presented of him is not an accurate depiction of who he is as a pastor.”

do you disbelieve him because i support him?
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:38 PM

I disbelieve him because of all of his "mistake comments" He is just not ready to be a president, he needs more grooming for the position
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:40 PM

Ron, don't you know that's the norm?
You and I are ignorant because we're young and we support Obama.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:41 PM

Originally Posted By: kms
I disbelieve him because of all of his "mistake comments" He is just not ready to be a president, he needs more grooming for the position


And what made Fred "Law & Order" Thompson groomed for the position?
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:42 PM

why aren't you an "intelligence" officer anymore?
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:46 PM

actually I hope to be again soon, I should find out within a couple of weeks. or do you want to know why I left. My husband was sleeping with my best friend and I was 8 months pregnant, I knew that with a newborn and 2 other kids, I would be able to give the air force all it deserved or my family. Now I am in a position to back.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:48 PM

If you do go back Kori, God bless. I do not degrade your service, only your politics.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:48 PM

good luck! (sincerely)
Posted By: A_G

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: DoobyDoobyDoo
I thought this thread was about TheIncredbileComplyGuy


Me too!

Now I'm sorry I opened it.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:50 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Originally Posted By: TheChanginator
Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
And we have criminals advising the ACTUAL President. What's your point?

Really? Provide your evidence, not your far-left filtered partisan psychobable, evidence, evidence.


Oh gee. I don't know.
The US Attorney issue.
The political prosecution of the Governor of Alabama.
Warrantless wiretapping.
Scooter Libby (office of the VPOTUS, but you get the point).

But I guess these things aren't important, because the people responsible for these acts all wear flag pins.



Neo, the US attorney issue is definitely not illegal. The US Attys serve at the pleasure of the President. While it mayu distatseful, political and sacrifice the atty's independence, this isn't that different from the democrats refusing to confirm judicial nominees. The Sup Ct has ruled that with the right to hire comes the right to fire.

At this point, there are only allegations regarding political influence on the governor's prosecution, so perhaps stating this as a fait accompli is hyperbole.

Warrentless wiretapping may be unconstitutional, but to make it sound like it is a criminal act is again hyperbole. Reasonable people disagree on this Constitutional gray area.

And to cite Scooter Libby for his perjury charge is ironic, since you are then calling President Clinton a criminal as well, aren't you.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:52 PM

Quote:
so perhaps stating this as a fait accompli is hyperbole.

the same cannot be said about the obama arguments made here and on the rest of the conservative blogs?
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:55 PM

Originally Posted By: straw
And to cite Scooter Libby for his perjury charge is ironic, since you are then calling President Clinton a criminal as well, aren't you.


yes.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Ronzilla
Quote:
so perhaps stating this as a fait accompli is hyperbole.

the same cannot be said about the obama arguments made here and on the rest of the conservative blogs?


Yes they can. The difference is that you are not considering it, you simply dismiss it.

And no, I don't believe Obama, not because you support him, but because it is simply not credible that for over 20 years, these views did not present themselves.

And regarding this caricature, I am sure Hitler's friends would have said history's portrayal of him isn't entirely accurate.

After all, Hitler liked animals.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:57 PM

Originally Posted By: NeophytePolitico
Originally Posted By: straw
And to cite Scooter Libby for his perjury charge is ironic, since you are then calling President Clinton a criminal as well, aren't you.


yes.


Great, so we have improved. Instead of the President himself being a criminal, only his advisors are.

Let's rejoice.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 03:59 PM

Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 06:27 PM

Quote:
And to cite Scooter Libby for his perjury charge is ironic, since you are then calling President Clinton a criminal as well, aren't you.


Are you serious? Libby was CONVICTED! They were never even able to bring criminal charges against Clinton, much less get a conviction. The closest they came was bringing political charges against him in the impeachment hearings and those were easily defeated.
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 06:45 PM

Nothing gets yoss so riled as to even suggest anything less than deity for all things clinton.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
And to cite Scooter Libby for his perjury charge is ironic, since you are then calling President Clinton a criminal as well, aren't you.


Are you serious? Libby was CONVICTED! They were never even able to bring criminal charges against Clinton, much less get a conviction. The closest they came was bringing political charges against him in the impeachment hearings and those were easily defeated.


Are you kidding? You honestly believe he did not commit perjury? Hey, OJ was found not guilty too, but I think we all know what really happened.
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 07:52 PM

Quote:
You honestly believe he did not commit perjury?


Yes. Perjury requires a false statement under oath about a material matter. Even if you believe that he made false statements in his deposition in the Jones case, whether he had a relationship with Lewinsky was not at all material to the Jones case, so any perjury charges would have failed on that issue alone. In his Grand Jury testimony, he acknowledged his relationship with Lewinsky.

Prosecutors never brought charges because they had a sure loser of a case.
Posted By: rainman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 08:03 PM

Quote:
Prosecutors never brought charges because they had a sure loser of a case.


Uhh, Yoss I think there's a little more to it than that. Prosecutors also contended with the serious legal and constitutional issues (let alone the political ones) of bringing criminal charges against a sitting president.

The fact that he had to pay a $90,000 fine (and lost his Ark. bar license, FWIW) for civil contempt is not meaningless. I think it was stupid and wrong to impeach him, but that doesn't mean he didn't commit perjury. Your parsing of the materiality standard may be accurate, but then again it may not.

More to the point, you sound like Al Gore - "no controlling legal authority" - you may be technically accurate on the law, but in terms of whose act was worse, I don't see a lot of difference between Clinton and Libby - both were caught up in politically motivated, meritless investigations.
Posted By: A_G

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 08:04 PM

wait, are we still talking about TICG??!?!?

I'm confuzzled.
Posted By: HappyGilmore

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 08:22 PM

snickerdoodles
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 08:26 PM

Quote:
Your parsing of the materiality standard may be accurate, but then again it may not.


Well, anyone is free to make the argument that the Lewinsky matter was material, but I'm not sure what that would be. But it is not just "parsing" - perjury is a legal term and materiality is an essential element of the charge. No materiality, no perjury. Libby was convicted because he committed the crime.

I disagree somewhat with your statement that the Plame matter was a "politically motivated, meritless" investigation. The CIA requested the investigation, remember. They have a strong interest in protecting their agents and front companies from being outed. Libby may not have been a big fish, but the investigation was necessary.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 08:37 PM

Yup, and OJ was not guilty, doesn't mean he was innocent.

If there was nothing wrong with he did, why was his license revoked?
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 08:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
Your parsing of the materiality standard may be accurate, but then again it may not.


Well, anyone is free to make the argument that the Lewinsky matter was material, but I'm not sure what that would be. But it is not just "parsing" - perjury is a legal term and materiality is an essential element of the charge. No materiality, no perjury. Libby was convicted because he committed the crime.

I disagree somewhat with your statement that the Plame matter was a "politically motivated, meritless" investigation. The CIA requested the investigation, remember. They have a strong interest in protecting their agents and front companies from being outed. Libby may not have been a big fish, but the investigation was necessary.
Yes, except that just like the Duke Lacrosse case, the prosecutor new very early in the investigation the identity of the leaker (Richard Armitage) but prosecuting him didn't further his agenda.
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 08:59 PM

Quote:
If there was nothing wrong with he did, why was his license revoked?


Now you are changing what you claimed from "criminal" and committing "perjury" to "nothing wrong". In fact, his license was suspended for five years for making misleading statements in the deposition.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 09:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
If there was nothing wrong with he did, why was his license revoked?


Now you are changing what you claimed from "criminal" and committing "perjury" to "nothing wrong". In fact, his license was suspended for five years for making misleading statements in the deposition.


Ah, but doesn't rise to criminality, so its all ok. The POTUS makes false statements, (not misleading, he flat out lied) in a deposition. His arrogance that he can thumbs his nose at everything. He holds the everything with contempt.

But you are right. He is technically not a criminal, just an obiviously morally deficient, ethically bankrupt individual who would not have been able to mop the floor of a company if he had behaved like this in the private world.

Congrats on whom you hold in such high esteem.
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 09:26 PM

The "misleading" part comes from the fact that he was given a definition of the term "sexual relations" that was drafted by Jones counsel that did not include oral sex.

As far as the tone of your response, all I did was challenge specific statements that you made. Don't take it so personally.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 10:03 PM

I am not taking it any more personally than you do when someone brings up President Clinton in the less than hero worship light you see him.

Check the mirror there cowboy.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 10:04 PM

It depends on what the definition of "is" is.
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 10:08 PM

Let's just drop this. Have a good weekend, Straw.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 10:10 PM

You too. Going to any Clinton rallies?
Posted By: Mrs. Rizzo

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 10:11 PM

Did you guys know Heath Ledger died?
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 10:16 PM

I didn't even know anyone kept a ledger like that!
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/18/08 10:25 PM

Did he invent the heath bar?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/19/08 01:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
The "misleading" part comes from the fact that he was given a definition of the term "sexual relations" that was drafted by Jones counsel that did not include oral sex.


I wish you'd quit telling this lie.

Originally Posted By: THE WASHINGTON POST
Under the definition approved by U.S. District Judge Susan Webber Wright during his deposition, "a person engages in 'sexual relations' when the person knowingly engages in or causes contact with the genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks of any person with an intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person."
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/19/08 02:03 PM

I posted something similar but it must have offended someone and got removed.
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 02:22 AM

Lie???? Point out where that definition says "mouth".

Did Clinton have sexual relations with Lewinsky under that definition? He would have had to contact her "genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks". That didn't happen. If they had asked the question of Lewinsky it would have been true, but not when asked of Clinton.

Thanks for posting the definition, J!!!! Great way to prove my point.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 03:23 AM

didn't Mr. Clinton acknowledge fondling certain areas of Ms. Lewinsky that would meet the def?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 03:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Lie???? Point out where that definition says "mouth".

Did Clinton have sexual relations with Lewinsky under that definition? He would have had to contact her "genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks". That didn't happen. If they had asked the question of Lewinsky it would have been true, but not when asked of Clinton.

Thanks for posting the definition, J!!!! Great way to prove my point.


Oh my. We're so far in the tank for Slick Willie that we're willing to believe that he did "this" but not "that" when she says he did, in fact, do "that" and he's been proven to be a complete liar on the whole story. You ought to be embarrased. Unfortunately, you've probably perverted the truth enough in your own mind that you're not.
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 04:36 AM

Quote:
he did "this" but not "that" when she says he did


What are you talking about????? She says she performed oral sex but not intercourse. Where does this idea come from that she says something contrary to what he said?

If you can find something that fits the definition, what is it?
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 04:39 AM

Quote:
didn't Mr. Clinton acknowledge fondling certain areas of Ms. Lewinsky that would meet the def?


Not that I've ever heard.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
didn't Mr. Clinton acknowledge fondling certain areas of Ms. Lewinsky that would meet the def?


Not that I've ever heard.


Did not Ms. Lewinsky testify that he touched her breasts in order to arouse or gratify a desire? The fact that Clinton would have denied it would only fit the pattern of lies the crafted.

I am with Jokerman on this one Yoss, it would appear you have drank the koolaid.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 04:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
he did "this" but not "that" when she says he did


What are you talking about????? She says she performed oral sex but not intercourse. Where does this idea come from that she says something contrary to what he said?

If you can find something that fits the definition, what is it?

Oh, please. This isn't even moderately difficult:

Originally Posted By: THE STARR REPORT
According to Ms. Lewinsky, she performed oral sex on the President on nine occasions. On all nine of those occasions, the President fondled and kissed her bare breasts. He touched her genitals, both through her underwear and directly, bringing her to orgasm on two occasions. On one occasion, the President inserted a cigar into her [censored]. On another occasion, she and the President had brief genital-to-genital contact.(42)

Now, maybe she's lying and he was telling the truth when he said he had never done anything that fit that particular definition of "sexual relations". But on what track record would you give him the benefit of the doubt???
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 05:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
didn't Mr. Clinton acknowledge fondling certain areas of Ms. Lewinsky that would meet the def?


Not that I've ever heard.


The fact that Clinton would have denied it


You do realize that you went from asking whether he had acknowledged it to saying he had denied it, right?
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 05:34 PM

It looks as though you're right about their making conflicting statements. I was focused on your earlier inaccurate claim that it was a "lie" to say that the definition didn't cover oral sex.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 09:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Originally Posted By: Pale Rider
Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
didn't Mr. Clinton acknowledge fondling certain areas of Ms. Lewinsky that would meet the def?


Not that I've ever heard.


The fact that Clinton would have denied it


You do realize that you went from asking whether he had acknowledged it to saying he had denied it, right?



Didn't you answer the first question? So if it comes down to a he said, she said and there is that blue dress, who you gonna believe?

you are spitting in the gusty winds here .......
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 10:42 PM

Quote:
you are spitting in the gusty winds here .


Actually, it hasn't been a bad thread thus far. I made the point about the lack of materiality defeating a perjury case, made the point that the Jones lawyers definition did exclude oral sex and also that Clinton had not acknowledeged anything that would constitute sexual relations, although there is a dispute as to what actually happened.
Posted By: Truffle Royale

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 10:47 PM

How did this thread about something BO said end up rehashing Bill's dirty laundry? Can we get back to the original topic or please...please just let this dang thread die already?
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/20/08 11:56 PM

I wouldn't say it has been the best thread since my innocous post got deleted...
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 01:07 AM

It is amazing what lengths a person will go to when they truly believe something so obviously untenable.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 02:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
It looks as though you're right about their making conflicting statements. I was focused on your earlier inaccurate claim that it was a "lie" to say that the definition didn't cover oral sex.

No, you were focused on defending your boy at any cost, up to and including total forfeiture of any reputation that you held on such matters. I didn't say it was a lie that the definition didn't cover oral sex. The lie is that it was because of that reason that Billy Boy didn't lie under oath. He did lie, because they had quite certainly done OTHER things that were covered under that definition, and, by the way, when he testified before the grand jury, he did not deny that.
Posted By: B_F

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 01:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Bitter Rural PR
didn't Mr. Clinton acknowledge fondling certain areas of Ms. Lewinsky that would meet the def?


As I recall, with his cigar, no less.
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 02:41 PM

i may have to double check, but i didn't find God and guns on the list...

http://news.yahoo.com/page/election-2008-political-pulse-economy
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 03:04 PM

So Barry was just making excuses? Or what?
Posted By: rainman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 04:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Lie???? Point out where that definition says "mouth".

Did Clinton have sexual relations with Lewinsky under that definition? He would have had to contact her "genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks". That didn't happen. If they had asked the question of Lewinsky it would have been true, but not when asked of Clinton.

Thanks for posting the definition, J!!!! Great way to prove my point.


Yoss, what part of "any person" is unclear???? Under this definition, if she gives him oral sex, he's engaging in sex, because she is touching (with her mouth) one of the named parts of the body for his gratification. He is "any person" . . . so he engaged in sex. He wouldn't have gotten sanctioned if he'd had any real basis for the argument you're putting forth.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 05:11 PM

Reverend, I believe the argument at the time was that she was having sex with him, but he wasn't having sex with her. LOL - how very postmodern!
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 05:27 PM

Quote:
I didn't say it was a lie that the definition didn't cover oral sex.


Well, unfortunately for you anyone can go back and look at your post 946220.

First you quoted my statement that

Quote:
The "misleading" part comes from the fact that he was given a definition of the term "sexual relations" that was drafted by Jones counsel that did not include oral sex.


And you specifically said "I wish you'd quit telling this lie.[underlinng added]"
Posted By: rainman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 05:39 PM

Still seems to me that the definition did include oral sex. Someone was touching someone else in a designated spot for his (and her????) gratification. That fits the definition. Under the definition, if one of them was engaging in sex, they both were.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 06:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
I didn't say it was a lie that the definition didn't cover oral sex.

Well, unfortunately for you anyone can go back and look at your post 946220.

And I hope everybody does. Straw had said, "The POTUS [made] false statements, (not misleading, he flat out lied) in a deposition." You responded:

Quote:
The "misleading" part comes from the fact that he was given a definition of the term "sexual relations" that was drafted by Jones counsel that did not include oral sex.

As you noted, I responded that I wished you would quit telling that lie. The lie, as I've said before, was NOT that the definition didn't include BJs. The lie is in the fact that they engaged in OTHER activity that WAS covered by the definition, and yet you want to pretend that it was technically a truthful response. Get over the man-crush, Yoss.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 07:30 PM

Is Yoss seriously arguing that this

"a person engages in 'sexual relations' when the person knowingly engages in or causes contact with the genitalia"

doesn't fit the activities that the President of the United States and an intern engaged in?
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 07:31 PM

Quote:
man-crush


LOL You sure get irritated when you're proven wrong.
Posted By: TheManofSteel

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 07:33 PM

Haven't you all figured it out yet??!!!

Yoss is not a BOL individual, but an actual member of Bill Clinton's Cabinet during his presidency.

TA DHA!!!
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 07:38 PM

Quote:
man-crush
Do you mean Bill or Hillary?
Posted By: Yossarian

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 07:41 PM

straw: No, as I said before by its language it does apply to what Lewinsky did. But it's a definition that was specifically approved as defining the term for purposes of the deposition. It doesn't matter what the conventional definition might be.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 07:46 PM

So you are saying that Lewinski had sexual relations according to the defintion, but Clinton did not?
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 07:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
I made the point that the Jones lawyers definition did exclude oral sex and also that Clinton had not acknowledeged anything that would constitute sexual relations.
Thousands of parents of middleschool girls kindly thank you for this distinction.
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 07:54 PM

I think you all need to look up the UCMJ(uniformed Code of military Justice) and see that no matter how you spin it as commander and chief of the armed forces what he/she did was wrong..
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 07:58 PM

Forget my prior post. I forgot you were talking about Jones, not Lewinski. Clinton has had so many extra-marital affairs, it is difficult to keep track.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 08:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Michelle Obama
I think you all need to look up the UCMJ(uniformed Code of military Justice) and see that no matter how you spin it as commander and chief of the armed forces what he/she did was wrong..


I'm not trying to be cute.
802. ART. 2. PERSONS SUBJECT TO THIS CHAPTER
Could someone, honestly, explain to me whether or not the POTUS is subject to the uniformed code? I don't think the POTUS can be held under the uniformed code, as he is not a uniformed member of the armed services.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 08:05 PM

POTUS is not. Although Commander in Chief, POTUS is a civilian, thus civilian control over the military.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 08:10 PM

Straw, so would POTUS be held accountable under the uniformed code? As they are a civilian?
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 08:18 PM

No, POTUS not accountable under uniformed code of military justice.
Posted By: Imagine

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 08:18 PM

Again, I'm not trying to debunk or cause trouble. I'm just curious as to whether the code of conduct transfers over to the civilian class.
Posted By: straw

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 08:42 PM

not based on the definitions I scanned. But I just took a quick look.
Posted By: rainman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 08:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
straw: No, as I said before by its language it does apply to what Lewinsky did. But it's a definition that was specifically approved as defining the term for purposes of the deposition. It doesn't matter what the conventional definition might be.


Yoss, Judge Webber's order refutes both of your claims.

She thought it was clear that the definition of "sexual relations" applied to the conduct in question - the conduct of both Clinton and Lewinski: "[ Clinton's ] statements regarding whether he had ever engaged in sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky likewise were intentionally false, notwithstanding tortured definitions and interpretations of the term 'sexual relations'." In a footnote, she stated "It appears the President is asserting that Ms. Lewinsky could be having sex with him while, at the same time, he was not having sex with her."

Clearly the judge thought that was a bogus argument.

Judge Webber also addressed the issue of materiality: "contrary to numerous assertions, this Court did not rule that evidence of the Lewinsky matter was irrelevant or immaterial to the issues in the plaintiff's case. Indeed, the Court specifically acknowledged that such evidence might have been relevant to plaintiff's case . . . this Court made the decision to disallow discovery as to Ms. Lewinsky and to exclude evidence concerning her from trial not because the Court considered such evidence to be irrelevant or immaterial, but because its admission would frustrate the timely resolution of this case and cause undue expense and delay . . ."

Sounds to me like the judge considered the issue to be material.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 08:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Yossarian
Quote:
man-crush

LOL You sure get irritated when you're proven wrong.

When it happens, we'll test that theory. As it is, thanks for conceding the point.
Posted By: kms

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/21/08 11:04 PM

to a soldier/sailor/airmen., even though it may not be the law, the CIC should be held accountable to the same standards they are.
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/22/08 01:54 AM

is this thread still here?
Posted By: Truffle Royale

Re: Is What He Said Wrong? Honestly? - 04/22/08 02:45 AM

Ok, PR and I concur that this thread has pushed the envelope of BOL propriety to it's limits. In honor of the final big primary tomorrow, I'm locking this down so we can move on.