Democratic Nominees Denounce cutting Gas Prices!

McCain says cut Gas Tax and stop buying for Petroleum Reserves

I'd just like to note that our gas has been above $3.39/gallon for many weeks now.

:crazy avatar:

i'll see your $3.39 and raise you and arm AND a leg!

I'm still trying to time my buying. We keep going from $3.40 a gallon to $3.19 a gallon at what seems like random intervals.

Shaving off $0.184 tax for a 25 gallon fill up only saves you $4.60. It isn't the tax that is ridiculous, it is the price of gas.

The first thing I thought when I heard McC's suggestion on the news this morning is that it is about the dumbest idea I've heard yet. That is a huge source of income for the government. How do they expect to replace it? Are we just going to go further into debt with China? Will our grandchildren be born with a stamp across their bottoms "Made in China"?

But, for that matter, I'd like to ask any of the current candidates and GWB when was the last time any of them filled up their car with their own money and then went to the grocery store and bought their own groceries? None of them are in touch with the American public. They are insulated by aides, Secret Service, schedules and transportation being provided to them.

Every holiday, the fuel price inches up. Every season, the fuel price inches up. Sometimes it leaps. But when the market price of a barrel of crude drops significantly, the fuel price at the pump doesn't budge. The oil companies are making record profits. They claim greater expenses, but those record profits are net, not gross, so the expenses are already out of the equation. They are just raking it in and lying to the public and Congress.

The next time Congress calls up the heads of major oil, they should try waterboarding.

MJ,

It's not just shaving $4.60 a fill up off your gas. By cutting that tax, and at the same time reducing purchases of oil by the government for reserves, you change supply and demand. Where's the money coming from? Increased spending by the consumers paying taxes elsewhere. Reduced spending on petroleum reserves.

Why not try investing in America's infrastructure and building lightrail systems between larger cities and suburbs. It'll put laborers to work building the lines and stations, and the finished product will reduce dependence on oil. Win/win if you ask me.

[quote=Bengalsfan]

That makes about as much sense as thinking that people who are cash strapped and financially hardened are going to put their stimulus check into the economy. If we're that strapped for cash and in debt, I'd put that money towards paying down my debt.

You think people are going to spend that $4.60 elsewhere? Like on what? An extra Value Meal from McDonald's? Give me a break...

Hush now. No need for COMMON SENSE around these parts.

No, people are going to spend that $4.60 on gas when they travel this summer, rather than not going on vacations and spending money. Or did you miss the timing?

You think way too small.

There are already train lines between larger cities. Perhaps you've heard of Amtrack? People don't use them enough to justify building even more.

If you think that extra $4.60 is going to matter THAT much when it comes to whether or not a person goes on vacation, you're mistaken.

If it isn't gas prices, it'll be toll prices, if it isn't toll prices, it'll be some kind of other fee.

The real solution isn't cutting taxes in some kind of scheme. The real solution is finding alternatives to oil, working on infrastructure like FBH suggests, and not allow the oil companies (domestic and foreign) to rape the American citizen.

The oil companies aren't raping anyone, worldwide demand is the highest it has ever been, contributing significantly to the rise in fuel cost.

Alternatives to oil are great, as are infrastructure suggestions, but these are long-term solutions that will not satisfy the crybabies of the populace overnight. Furthermore, in the interim, we still need to lower taxation on oil to help as well as invest in more efficient refineries (SHAM SHAME SHAME cried the dems for that)so that the cost of production of oil lowers over time and is passed on to the American consumer.

Neo,

It's not about $4.60. It's about perception. Without this step, gas prices will be over $3.50 a gallon for certain this summer. People are already looking at this and saying "I'm not going to take my vacation and leave town this year.". More importantly, do you think the average person travelling only fills up once?

One of the major reasons we are having financial difficulties as a nation is because of the hit to the tourism industry after 9/11. Another blow like this could be terrible.

I don't disagree that finding alternatives to oil is important, however, while finding a cure for cancer is important, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to find better antibiotics to fight strep throat either. Trying to provide some IMMEDIATE relief is as important as long term thinking.

I think the govmint should set profit limits on the oil companies.

I also think they should provide for my health care. I just hope that should I need a new kidney some day, that the bureaucracy doesn't interfere so much that my records are switched with someone who is in for a sex change operation.

The government should do my shopping for me, both grocery and clothes too. It is only fair, or I'll feel bitter and turn to religion more devoutly.

ROFLMAO @ WD

And of course go out and buy a gun....

Should have to go out and buy a gun. The government should provide that for me toO!

Oh yeah, you're totally right, sorry.

there shouldnt have to be any buying of guns, there should be "auto-guns" at every street corner that shoots bad people whenever they walk by

If the government was doing all of that for you, you wouldn't have the energy or inclination to shoot a thief to protect your family. Why spend the money on a gun? The government would just buy you more stuff to replace what was stolen!

Perception? Perception? Right because Joe Sixpack, who lost his job to India because of better profit opportunities for the company, is going to finally be able to afford that family vacation because John McCain is going to cut taxes for about 4 months. I'm sure he's thrilled to know that...

That job likely does not go to India if the U.S. givernment is not taxing the bujeeezuz out of the company, making it more operationally efficient and profitable to move the operations to India. So Joe Sixpack has no problem finding a new job...

I like Indian food. There! I said it!

no guarantee that the tax break will be passed on to the consumer. Either the oil companies or retailers could price gas up and pocket the tax rebate.

I just want the SixPack.

Right, because corporations shouldn't have to pay their fair share.
Only us regular folks.
I'm still waiting to see my benefits from the President's wonderful economy plan that has been in place for 7 years now.
But I hear Exxon is doing great!

And lets be realistic here folks, THIS IS A POLITICAL PLOY! It's a scam! McCain is trying to get brownie points! You know how you lower gas prices? YOU DON'T [censored] OFF EVERY OIL PRODUCING COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WITH COWBOY DIPLOMACY!

Is uttering "change" every couple of breaths synonomous with brownie points?

Oh, that's right, how could I forget, it's all America's fault.

Right. Check. Thanks for the reminder.

And yet our chief source of petroleum is Canada, a close ally. Nice try!!!

I have seen plenty from the President's economic plan. I have seen years of a strong economy where I have been able to prosper, given that I did my part and did my work without sitting around hoping that things would land in my lap. And I came from quite humble beginnings too.

Corporations already pay a fair share of tax. When it becomes too much, they naturally cut expenses by cutting jobs OR moving operations to where it is profitable to operate. Just like you or any individual changing jobs when they pay you better.

A tax break for anyone is a tax break for the economy.

And don't forget, Democrats love America!

Joe Sixpack can spend his $4.60 per fillup savings on Iron City Beer. Why? Because frankly, if he can't hold a job, he isn't going to help the economy. This kind of tax cut to stimulate the economy isn't aimed at the wopping 4% of the population who are unemployed. It is aimed at people who WILL spend money.

I'm sure Sen. McCain means well, but, it is frankly more of a symbolic gesture than anything. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve has a maximum storage capacity of 727 million barrels. We currently have over 700 million barrels in it, and haven't drawn from it in more than a year. We're going to have to stop 'supplying' it pretty soon anyway.

so would you say that the oil economy is micro rather than macro then?

Try this for the next few weeks: Whenever someone says "...reduce our dependence on foreign oil.", automatically add the phrase "because we cannot trust Canada."

Ok - lets all take a long deep breath and relax for a minute - of course we are all getting "raped" with gas prices, and those gas prices are making everything else go up,etc etc etc but did you ever stop to think "Why hasn't the government put a stop to this price gauging?" Quite simply...money. Too many politicians have their hand in the pot. This will not stop, it will only get worse before it gets better. The oil executives are getting richer and richer and their crumbs are falling to the politicians. Yes, any little price break would be great - even one that is "only $4.60". Hey, its money I wouldn't have had before. Which brings me to another argument - We as americans are spenders...not savers, so to those of you that think 4.60 is nothing: well, I agree, it is not alot, but you go to adding that up over a year and you have over $200. A penny saved is a penny earned. Stop being unappreciative and take what little relief is given, even if it is "just $4.60". Yeah, we know in the end it is really all just bull-[censored] but enjoy the little things along the way. They, the politicians, and McCain, are not foolin' anybody.

You want oil prices to come down, revise commodity trading rules.

huh?

You want oil prices to come down, reduce demand for energy and increase the supply of oil and other energy sources.

the market for oil is isolated? i am not sure why you are feigning such confusion. do we buy oil from canada at different prices than oil from elsewhere?

The price isn't being based on supply or demand, it's been based on commodities being traded because of a weak dollar. Good example is wheat jumped to $24, but there was no reason. It's that fact you only have to put down 5 to 7% compared to 50% that makes a difference.

i stopped reading here.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/15/markets/oilprices/index.htm?postversion=2008041515

so this isn't true?

Excellent!

what % of the change in price since, say, 1998 is because of trading effects and % is from economics?

What a small narrow view you have of the world. We don't have Amtrack here and haven't in about 25 years. Besides, Amtrack is losing money as fast as any airline. Diesel costs money.

I do support the idea of building commuter lines between communities, if only to cut down on the traffic. I have often suggested that they build the rail lines beside the interstates. There is no better advertising to ride the train than someone sitting in traffic that is going nowhere fast and a couple of trains go past without hinderance.

But it isn't going to happen until we get a President in office that has a monetary interest in the success of the railroad. Just look what George and Dick have done for oil!

8% profit margin is nice but not exhorbitant, and nowhere near the 15% more or less that the "non-profit" Planned Eugenics..er Parenthood made.

Is Reverand Wright a racist?

LOL...A well-meaning but futile gesture Straw.

"only" $4.60 per fill up will save me $160 in those four months, which I will use for other things (read to stimulate economy). Not something so small if you actually can think a little bigger...

What a small minded, ignorant viewpoint. If you had read my comment, I didn't claim that Joe Sixpack COULDN'T hold a job. I said that "they" sent Joe's job to India to make $$$ for the company at the expense of Joe. And nice to know you care so much about the unemployed, who, by the way, aren't the "welfare Mom" stereotypes I'm sure your ignorant viewpoint harps on.

How are you going to stimulate the economy with $160?

This is great! You guys are arguing about the job qualifications of an imaginary guy working for a make-believe company.

Maybe those are the "facts" Ron was talking about in the other thread.

It is 7:38 on a Tuesday. Dancing with the Stars don't come home until 9. What else am I supposed to do?

I understand that both Clinton and Obama want to renegotiate or pull out of NAFTA within 60 days if elected. (Ohio Debate Feb 26). The problem here is that Canadians of course will have some things to say about any renegotiation of the treaty. Canada is the largest supplier of oil to America in the world. The Alberta tar sands alone are estimated to contain 175 billion barrels of crude oil reserves. Under NAFTA's Chapter 6, the U.S has preferential access to Canadian oil and the Canadian government is prohibited from implementing any policies that interfere with that access. The same goes for virtually all types of energy from petrochemicals to uranium to electricity. Canadian consumers are already generally pissed that they pay much more for gasoline than American consumers. Today the average price of gasoline in Canada is $1.185 per litre, and after converting to Canadian currency and accounting for the different sized gallons, the U.S. average price works out to the equivalent of $.91 Canadian cents a litre. Where I live we're paying $1.24 right now. Of course one of the reasons Canadians pay more is due to higher government taxes on gasoline. But I don't think your average Canadian understands that. They just see that they are producing all this oil and exporting it to the US yet are paying more for it than those to whom they export! A new Environics poll released by the Council of Canadians today showed 89% of Canadians agree that Canada needs an energy policy that protects Canadian supplies and the environment even if it means placing restrictions on exports and foreign ownership. See: http://www.canadians.org/media/DI/2008/15-Apr-08.html
For this reason it is inevitable that any reopening of NAFTA will include a renegotiation of Chapter 6 of NAFTA, “Energy and Basic Petrochemicals.” As political pressure from Canadian voters increases, any Canadian government would likely score big points in doing away with Chapter 6. The following is an excerpt from CBC news Feb 28.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper issued a friendly warning to Democratic presidential hopefuls south of the border on Thursday, saying it would be a "mistake" for the United States to reopen the North American Free Trade Agreement. His comments, during Thursday's question period in the House of Commons, came two days after presidential hopefuls Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama threatened to pull the U.S. out of the 15-year-old free trade agreement with Canada and Mexico unless it's renegotiated" If any American government ever chose to make the mistake of opening that, we would have something we would want to talk about as well," the prime minister said with a smile, in response to a question from NDP Leader Jack Layton. He didn't elaborate, but earlier this week, Trade Minister David Emerson and Finance Minister Jim Flaherty said U.S. officials should not forget the benefits of the agreement and hinted Canada could respond to a NAFTA pull-out by renegotiating U.S. access to Canada's oil.

In my opinion there is no other country besides the US that I would rather had preferential access to Canadian energy exports, but we have to ensure that it is a two way street and that NAFTA works for both of us. If it doesn't then by all means lets tear up the agreement and start from scratch.

Just my two bits worth.

Who is going to spend the money, Mr. Libertarian?

That would buy groceries - not such small stuff for a family!

Did anyone see that article last week that they might have discovered VAST oil reserves in the west, I believe Montana?

Only read a quick excerpt, but that would rock if it materializes. Might buy us some time to continue to develop other forms of energy.

On a tangent, I really don't understand why they don't put solar panels/collectors on the roofs of all of these businesses/strip malls down here in FL since with all of the sunshine they could power the buildings and probably sell a lot of the electricity back to Florida Power and Light.

The reason they don't do it is because they cost more than the power generated would save them.

If you want to get off oil, tax it. McCain's proposal to cut the price of a scarce resource doesn't make sense - it's sheer populism.

The payback period for photo-voltaic solar panels is usually estimated to be 8 - 10 years. Maybe that's too long for the mall owners.

Don't you mean Florida Flicker and Flash???

Is that the same for residences in the northeast? Do you know any tax incentive to help defray the cost of installation?

Residential Solar PV Tax Credit, established in the Energy Policy Act of 2005, is a Federal tax credit. Some states have their own tax credits, but I don't know them.

Diesel sitting at $4.19 a gallon, 5 years ago it was $1.42. I use 12-13 gallons per week in 600 miles of commuting, so I would realize a $12.00 per month break. However, I also pay the gas for Ms.Gilmore, who drives a gas guzzling SUV to the tune of 30 gallons a week, and JuniorGilmore with his mid-size import of 16 gallons a week. They would have a collective savings of another $9.20 a week, or roughly $40 per month, for a grand total of $52 per month. Well, that could easily pay either a phone bill (home or cell), be dinner out for the Ms. and I, pay my dry-cleaning for 2 weeks, or easily cover what I spend for lunch every day. However, this also assumes that the price of diesel would not change during this time frame, which I don't think would happen.

bottom line, people who save it one place will generally spend it in another...

Lightweight. And with that, it's lunch time. I hope I have $80 bucks on me.

That's exactly the point, you save it on the taxes on your gas, and spend it elsewhere, adding it directly to the economy instead of going to taxes.

I heard something very interesting regarding this proposed tax cut.

If this plan goes through, the US Government is expected to lose about $10 billion in revenue for the Federal Highway Administration for such things as, you know, highway repair.

sell the dang roads, make 'em all toll

a portion of the money saved via this tax will be recouped in state and federal sales taxes, I bet they could easily transfer from one pot to another. (and have you driven the highways in this great nation lately? not that great...)

Let's just take over Iraq's oil and then invade Canada. Once we've defeated the Canadians (estimates of two weeks may be generous) we can turn on Old Mexico and completely dominate the North American continent. We'll have all the cheap oil and labor we need to do anything. We might also have socialized medicine.

MJ, sounds like a great plan, and most of the people will be better off.

I'll pass socialized medicine, thank you very much. HMOs are bad enough. I prefer to chose my doctors, have the ability to change if I am not pleased with their results, and to be able to see a doctor when I need to rather than waiting forever.

Neo - since $160 is such a paltry sum, PM me and I'll give you the address to send your savings to me

It looks like Neo is either missing the point all together - or is making way more money than the rest of us and just doesn't need the $160 - please come back and join the real world with the rest of us

you know that _X... I mean Neo doesnt have to pa rent, Mama's basement is quite comfortable, and those vespas get really good mileage, plus regularly beating up homeless folks is a very profitable career path

I love socialized medicine. I have never had to pay a medical bill in my life, have been able to choose any doctor I wish and change if I don't like them, and can see my doctor whenever I want. It's a good feeling to know that you never have to worry about healthcare coverage or whether you can afford it.

i can't wait for the inevitable "yeah, well, canadians are congential liars, too!"

sorry, canuck, but who are we going to trust more, a canadian with actual experience or conservative blogs? the answer is quite clear...

No, but here is a post by as BOLer with Canadian Family Members that are not one bit enamored of the Canadian Healthcare System, no conservative blogs:

Re: America's Healthcare [Re: grmasterb]
Just Jay
Power Poster


Registered: 10/26/06
Posts: 4331
Originally Posted By: grmasterb
Originally Posted By: RR Becca


I have many Canadian family memebers, and the majority them would prefer our system.
_________________________
I want to teach your children the value of saving and the joys of compound interest!

AND

Re: America's Healthcare [Re: Yossarian]
Just Jay
Power Poster


Registered: 10/26/06
Posts: 4331
Poll from 2003...very relevant.

trying getting a kidney, liver or lung transplant in Canada

Yes...and??

can't get it; must get in line

Chief, is that you??

canuck, please don't let these conservative banker types give you the wrong impression of americans at large.

Hey Ronzilla, don't worry. I love the States and have many American friends. I recently took a recreational road trip through Oregon, California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Idaho and Washington and had a great time! Awsome scenery, towns, monuments and activities! I did a lot of camping along the way and practically everyone I met was friendly and welcoming. I was also almost recruited into the National Guard at Baker Oregon during their county fair until I mentioned that I am a Canadian! Of course the recruiter was probably thrown off by the fact that I didn't say "eh" much. LOL

Canuck:

but you are an American living in Cananda, right?

I thought an earlier post indicated that?

That's true of the US, as well, unless you're referring to the time-honored free-market solution of buying organs on the black market.

Canuck, I did a road trip from Vancouver straight east on the northern end of BC, then after we reached Alberta for a few days, looped back around west on the southern end of BC. I'd have to say it was some of the most breathtaking scenery I have ever witnessed, and the Canadian peeps were really cool too, and damn they love their hockey!