The means may be more important than the ends

Posted By: Hrothgar Geiger

The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 05:06 PM

In the days following the London subway bombing, the FBI was following up a lead on an Egyptian student named Magdy el-Nashar who attended N.C. State prior to moving to the U.K. and attending the University of Leeds.

An agent obtained a grand jury subpoena and 'sealed court order' to request educational records from N.C. State. The University complied with the subpoena, and turned over the records.

On informing his office that the records were in hand, the agent was told that they weren't supposed to obtain the records via a grand jury subpoena, they were to have used a National Security Letter. Further,"The Director has requested a write up on the circumstances surrounding the NSL letter issued to [NC State] ... The Director would like to use this as an example tomorrow as to why we need administrative subpoenas to fight the war on terror. In particular, he would like to know how much extra time was spent having to get the Grand Jury subpoena."

The agent was directed to return the records to the University and obtain a National Security Letter.

Over the next couple of hours, the agent revised a template for an NSL requesting telephone record to instead seek several categories of records, including applications for admission, housing information, emergency contacts, and campus health records. The SAC signed the letter, and the agent served it at N.C. State.

Well, attempted to serve it. N.C. State refused the NSL citing 1)it requested information outside the permissible scope of NSLs, and 2)the SAC lacked the authority to sign the NSL.

The FBI field office then obtained a 2nd grand jury subpoena. with which the University complied.

Later that month, FBI Director Mueller testified before Congress that the FBI’s had been unable to obtain the information with a National Security Letter. He did not mention that the NSL exceeded the scope of the statutory authority, nor that the FBI had originally sought a subpoena and had records in hand before reversing course. Instead, he used the example to press for greater surveillance powers, testifying that the objections to the NSL "resulted in a two-day delay."

FBI notes, obtained via FOIA request.
Posted By: straw

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 05:53 PM

Can you provide where this info comes from, or did you obtain it on your own with your own FOIA request?
Posted By: Hrothgar Geiger

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 05:55 PM

Electronic Frontier Foundation, which you could have surmised from the URL
Posted By: straw

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 06:40 PM

Link was blocked here, which you might have surmised by my asking the question smart a$$.
Posted By: Hrothgar Geiger

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 06:57 PM

You can't even see the URL when the cursor's on it? That's some good blocking there.
Posted By: straw

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 07:08 PM

No I can't and when I click, I get my web filter saying unauthorized site. No URL available.

And since you have posted classified material before and have connections to the SEALS, I just wanted to ask if you obtained the material yourself. After all, if you had to kill someone for the info, credibility would be high.
Posted By: Hrothgar Geiger

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 07:11 PM

Now who's being a smart @$$?
Posted By: straw

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 07:11 PM

I am, but I like to think I am being more creative too.
Posted By: Hrothgar Geiger

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 07:16 PM

Well, of course you would.
Posted By: straw

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 07:16 PM

guess you don't appreciate my humor
Posted By: Pale Rider

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 07:18 PM

nothing comes up when moving the cursor over the link for me either - I like the FBI's initiative though - just saying......
Posted By: Hated By Some

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 07:21 PM

Originally Posted By: straw
guess you don't appreciate my humor

is that along the lines of accusing somebody of being unable to divide by zero?
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 07:23 PM

Actually after reading the link it appears to me that Barabara did not read the FBI memo himself. Not only that, but it appears that he is either editorializing the events, or plagerizing it from elsewhere.

Not only that, but some of the information in Barbies post is not even found in his link. Is this how you audit Barbie?

Not only that, but the link says that it was the writers opinion that it "may" be a violation? Where do you come up with your garbage?
Posted By: straw

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 07:23 PM

Sure. Have you figured out yet if Reverand Wright is a racist.
Posted By: Sound Tactic

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/22/08 07:36 PM

Not only that but 1 hour after not wanting to release records he advised the FBI that the documents were waiting for them.

This was after the FBI told the rep at Univ that he was considered served.
Posted By: HappyGilmore

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/23/08 02:10 AM

gee, after seeing everything blanked out, wonder how you can determine anything
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/23/08 03:22 AM

If the FBI's for it, I'm agin' it.
Posted By: kms

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/23/08 12:39 PM

sorry I looked at the article and I am not buying that it is evenr real. There are specific ways to mark classified data, even secret data and that has not been done in this article
Posted By: Hrothgar Geiger

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/23/08 01:15 PM

...Because there is a single set of classification definitions and procedures in use across the intelligence community, armed forces, and law enforcement?
Posted By: kms

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/23/08 01:41 PM

in the intelligence community yes
Posted By: Imagine

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/23/08 01:42 PM

but would this FBI release be more along the lines of law enforcement or intelligence?
Posted By: kms

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/23/08 01:44 PM

intel since they are considered part of the intel community
Posted By: Imagine

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/23/08 01:52 PM

They are? Really?
I'm not trying to be snide, but I never would've of thought of them as being part of the intel community.

I know they servce as a domestic intelligence agency, but I always viewed them as a law enforcement agency, what with the DoJ connection and being responsible for over 200 categories of federal crimes.
Posted By: kms

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/23/08 02:19 PM

not since 9/11
Posted By: kms

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/23/08 02:20 PM

i take that back, i could have worked with them prior to 9/11 as part of my intership
Posted By: Imagine

Re: The means may be more important than the ends - 04/23/08 02:25 PM

see, even after 9/11...I don't consider the FBI an "intel" agency.
That is just not their primary purpose. They're not the CIA, DIA, NSA, or so on...but they do serve an intel purpose.

Oh well, carry on.