More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time)

He is a cheat and hypocrite.

shouldn't you be shoveling?

shouldn't you be shoveling?

Shouldn't you have a quad stacker in your pie hole?

all joking aside...is it really in the best interest of the NFL for them to do an investigation and find that a team cheated? and then publicly mete out punishment? of course not, makes the league look bad. so they keep quiet as much as possible and hope a video doesn't turn up later (ray rice) that makes them look stupid.

did they not get fined for having an opponents playbook?

a small part of the Pats also having the best record since 2000 is that they are in the weakest division in the NFL as well The Bill Dolphins and Jets have not played well the past 15 years. If they swapped out the Pats and replaced with Tampa. The bill would look good.

No. Just more of the BS floating around after deflate gate broke.

I do not have a "team" (I like watching a good game)

Well this Super Bowl was undeniably a good game except if you are a Seahawks fan.

Well this Super Bowl was undeniably a good game except if you are a Seahawks fan.

a small part of the Pats also having the best record since 2000 is that they are in the weakest division in the NFL as well The Bill Dolphins and Jets have not played well the past 15 years. If they swapped out the Pats and replaced with Tampa. The bill would look good.

You are misinformed. In fact, since 2001 the AFC East has been the weakest division (based on record) only twice - 2005 and 2007 (the year the Pats went 16-0 regular season).

They are much better than the Jets.

When 3 miserable excuses for a football team play each other someone has to win. Let us not forget about the 2007 season
1) loss in the SB to the Giants
2) Spygate. (it is easier to win when you have the opposing teams plays) If they were caught taping the lowly Jets...

Why do you think every play calling coordinator on TV covers their mouth with their clipboard when calling plays?

but they tried to cheat against the Jets, nuff said.

Didn't have any impact on the outcome of that game.

This pretty much says it all:
https://teechip.com/hateusaintus#id=0&c=031F30

And it wasn't the taping that was illegal to begin with. It was where the taping was occurring.

That's not exactly a valid defense (no pun intended). That's like a hitman saying "It's not illegal to swing a tire iron, it's just that someone's head was in its path."

I wonder why there has been no knee-jerk suspension reaction for the Patriots.

so if we go off the old assumption my Catholic School nuns used...for every instance of cheating that was caught, at least 10 instances weren't...bodes poorly for the Patriots, doesn't it?

As a follower of the Saints, who were thrown under the bus by the NFL and had multiple coaches suspended (1 for a full season) because of bounties that were allegedly put on opponents (subsequently proven by arbitration to be untrue), I wonder why there has been no knee-jerk suspension reaction for the Patriots.

and as soon as it has been "dis-proven" the evidence will go into the destruct bin.

I say prove it.

“For more than 75 years, Little League has been an organization where fair play is valued over the importance of wins and losses

if this were true, they would not keep score, host tournaments where champions are crowned, nor have TV coverage of the little league world series...

or at least a good bribe.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/1...l-lines-reports

Wow just wow the NFL will burn their own employees to cast doubt on this mess to clear the Pats.

Goes back to the we destroyed the tapes.

The balls were under-inflated so we just put a little more air in no harm no foul

You hate us 'cause you ain't us.

How often do you have to change the foil on that hat of yours? With dozens of former Patriots players on other teams (many in circumstances that makes them not really like the way the Patriots did business with them, like Richard Seymour and Wes Welker) how come none of them are bringing to light any cheating tactics of the Patriots? With former Patriots coaches now many places throughout the league (some with division rivals), how come none of them aside from Eric Mangini have ever brought anything to light except videotaping from an illegal location?

You hate us 'cause you ain't us.

How often do you have to change the foil on that hat of yours? With dozens of former Patriots players on other teams (many in circumstances that makes them not really like the way the Patriots did business with them, like Richard Seymour and Wes Welker) how come none of them are bringing to light any cheating tactics of the Patriots? With former Patriots coaches now many places throughout the league (some with division rivals), how come none of them aside from Eric Mangini have ever brought anything to light except videotaping from an illegal location?

are we forgetting about this?


http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/20...chick-tom-brady

Funny too how the haters still turned this thread into being about the Patriots cheating even though the title said it wasn't.

Its the hypocrisy shemp. He railed on the Pats for deflate gate yet admits to cheating himself. You understand hypocrisy, don't you?

If the Pats are found guilty of deflating balls they should be penalized accordingly as they were with spygate.

Enjoy another 11 months of "Defending Super Bowl Champion New England Patriots". I know I will.

verb
1 [no object] Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination: she always cheats at cards

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/cheat

Its the hypocrisy shemp. He railed on the Pats for deflate gate yet admits to cheating himself. You understand hypocrisy, don't you?

If the Pats are found guilty of deflating balls they should be penalized accordingly as they were with spygate.

I just want the game to return to sportsmanship.

Sure, and fair enough. But here is the problem I see. I see fans of a team trying to justify cheating because others did it. Then, if someone else cheated at one time, the new cheaters decry that the old cheaters have no moral ground to stand on and thus, cannot point the finger. Anyone can point the finger, past cheater or not.

The other problem I see is akin to the cheating at Penn State, Alabama, Ohio State etc. Cheating is a problem in major athletics and EVERYONE (including you) wants it removed. The problem is what happens when your team becomes the cheater. Then you want to litigate the problem. Oh well it is ok for me to complain about Johnny Manziel or Joe Paterno, but the moment someone levels criticism at my team, they are out of line.

The sad thing is that in the world we live in, right and wrong have been replaced with relative right and wrong. I don't know if NE is guilty in deflategate or not. But I do know they were guilty in spygate. Belicheck should have been banned then just like he should still be banned today.

Now you can go on justifying cheating all you want. I just want the game to return to sportsmanship.

I am wrong for wanting to wait for the evidence to decide if they cheated or not?

NFL set up a sting operation, sacrificing the first half of the AFC Championship game, to catch the Patriots cheating;

One ball is 2psi under inflated;

All balls are a few ticks under the minimum psi

Patriots attendant took the footballs into the mens room and in 90 seconds deflated the 14 footballs;

Maybe the "psi seems like it might be fine" because they were fine.

You apparently have inside information that no one else has given the "facts" you have stated.

First of all, thank you for telling me how I should feel or react to a situation.

I should know better than to bother sparring with you and I don't care how you react or think about the situation. If you want to brand them cheaters, by all means go ahead.

In more deflategate new: It has been reported that the Falcons are going to loose a second or third round draft pick

How was it that the Patriots were your average 1.6 to 1.8-fumble-per-game football team 1999-2006 and by 2007 not a single Patriot running back fumbled on a running play...as in NO rushing fumbles all season long...stretching into the post-season for all three playoff games as well? (And then that type of fumble-free patterns stretched not only three extra games, but eight YEARS!)

How was it that the Patriots were your average 1.6 to 1.8-fumble-per-game football team 1999-2006 and by 2007 not a single Patriot running back fumbled on a running play...as in NO rushing fumbles all season long...stretching into the post-season for all three playoff games as well? (And then that type of fumble-free patterns stretched not only three extra games, but eight YEARS!)

What were the fumble averages of those earlier Patriot running backs in years when they played for another NFL team? And for the later, fumble-free Patriot running backs, what were their fumble averages when they played for other NFL teams?

In other words, was the improvement in fumble average attributable to the specific running backs involved, or was there another factor? Those statistics might be helpful in this discussion.

Thanks Pale

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/deflated-f...fumble-numbers/

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blo...arly-impossible

There are some issues with those findings:


fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/your-guide-to-deflate-gateballghai-related-statistical-analyses/


I havent been paying attention, but has anyone actually gone and filled up a football to the minimum, taken it outside to roughly the same temp as the game and seen how long (if ever) it took to deflate to whatever they were when the league pulled them?

What were the fumble averages of those earlier Patriot running backs in years when they played for another NFL team? And for the later, fumble-free Patriot running backs, what were their fumble averages when they played for other NFL teams?

In other words, was the improvement in fumble average attributable to the specific running backs involved, or was there another factor? Those statistics might be helpful in this discussion.

There are some issues with those findings:


fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/your-guide-to-deflate-gateballghai-related-statistical-analyses/


I havent been paying attention, but has anyone actually gone and filled up a football to the minimum, taken it outside to roughly the same temp as the game and seen how long (if ever) it took to deflate to whatever they were when the league pulled them?

See the problem with your strawman conspiracy is that from the very first number (1) none of that was needed to suspect the Pats of cheating then testing it. The only thing that was needed was for one colts player to intercept the ball. This guy has been playing football for a long time and noticed something so egregiously wrong with the ball. All he did was said something. Bang 2-6 no longer matter.

How was it that the Patriots were your average 1.6 to 1.8-fumble-per-game football team 1999-2006 and by 2007 not a single Patriot running back fumbled on a running play...as in NO rushing fumbles all season long...stretching into the post-season for all three playoff games as well? (And then that type of fumble-free patterns stretched not only three extra games, but eight YEARS!)

Those statistics might be helpful in this discussion.

one down (no draft pick issue)

http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/j...evis-1.10343060

The Jets were fined $100,000 by the NFL for the December comments made by the team's owner about Darrelle Revis, according to a source. At the time, Revis was a member of the New England Patriots, but it didn't stop Johnson from expressing his desire to reunite with Revis.

Why is that when Kraft did the exact thing?

Why is that when Kraft did the exact thing?

I switched my brand of macaroni and cheese to Vevleeta from Kraft, I refuse to help that cheater make any more money...all other cheese is now Borden or Sargento, our house is Kraft free...if only the NFL were...

You do know that Robert Kraft has absolutely no connection to Kraft Foods, right? Kraft made his money in the cardboard industry.

[quote=HappyGilmore] Kraft made his money in the cardboard industry.

And if it is determined the NFL employees mishandled the balls, why would no fine ($ or draft picks) be an issue? If it is found the team was involved, they should be penalized accordingly.

You do know that Robert Kraft has absolutely no connection to Kraft Foods, right? Kraft made his money in the cardboard industry.

The league should have appropriate punishments in place to deal with cheating, rule breaking etc. and not be afraid to use them because one team is a larger revenue generator or more popular than another, the punishment is suitable for the level, and it is done timely

The league should have appropriate punishments in place to deal with cheating, rule breaking etc.

Gotta say...pretty clear what was happening.

I suppose those who were on here vehemently denying any cheating by the Patriots will be offering apologies and buying round of drinks in the virtual cooler this Friday...

provided monetary reward (or things of value)

I've been one of the most ardent Patriots supporters and I've already said how disappointed I am at this. Do I believe there was widespread rampant cheating? No. Do I believe Brady is involved? Absolutely. Not much respect for Brady at this point from me.

only 4 games the "investigation" was much longer than that.

This is not the same as scuffing up a base ball. It would be the same as using a smaller ball that would be more difficult for the opposing batters to hit using it for at least 2 years and lying about it.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/08/ex-patriot-damien-woody-i-believe-tom-brady-cheated/

Oh, it is not. Quit being such a whiner. First off, the other team used their own balls, not the one's the Patriots were supposedly deflating, so their opponents ability to score was not impeded at all. Second, where is your proof that the Patriots were deflating balls at all, much less for more than 2 years? The flawed report that dismisses Walt Coleman's best recollection because if they accept it, the numbers fit with weather conditions being able to have been the only factor to have impacted the balls?

And I can provide you links to articles where ex-Patriots Tedy Bruschi and Troy Brown say they 100% believe Tom Brady had nothing to do with cheating. You have to remember too, Damien Woody played for a time with the Patriots - but where did he spend the final 3 years of his playing career?

Why would the equipment guy refer to himself as "the deflator" prior to the 2014 season if he had not deflated a ball or two. if the balls were deflated due to some mysterious weather pattern the balls of the other team would have been deflated as well. PS it is not whining to see a team punished for actual crimes committed.

on would think that the guy that snapped the ball would have an idea if it was deflated. Once again a Pats fan has blamed the Jets (a far worse team even if they used an unknown 5th string QB) for issues cause by team members.

The NFL has been very explicit over the years in their desire for league parity. They have structured draft rules, scheduling rules, and many others to try to force a level of parity to exist. They can't stand that over the past 15 years, in spite of all the attempted parity, the Patriots have dominated the league. There must be cheating going on, because no team can be that good. If you have an agenda to look for cheating you've already determined exists, you'll pretty much find it. But that holds true with any team, not just the Patriots.

Not blaming the Jests, just saying that there might be a bias to his analysis. One would also think the guy that caught more passes that just about any other human on the planet from Tom Brady would also know if the balls were deflated. One would also think that the umpires who handle and reset the game ball after every play would have an idea if it was deflated. But hey, if it doesn't fit with the agenda, we just ignore it.

Weather you like it or not the ball was deflated even if it was caused by Gronk spiking it.

But even if they were....the investigation didn't definitively prove it. They took all that time, gathered all that information, and all for what? Probably? That's great but I could have said he "probably" did it without doing any research. I think the suspension is harsh considering the fact that it's all based on maybe's and probably's.

If anyone should be penalized in this, it should be the NFL for being absolutely clueless on how to conduct a sting operation and ensuing investigation.

OK, so the league knew the day before the AFC Championship game that there were some suspicions about the balls. You would think, with that knowledge, if they were going to do something they would have made 100% sure they were using calibrated gauges both before and at halftime of the game. Instead, they used cheap, inconsistent gauges you can buy from any Walmart for a couple of bucks, and then don't even make a record of which gauge of two available that they relied on. If anyone should be penalized in this, it should be the NFL for being absolutely clueless on how to conduct a sting operation and ensuing investigation.

If the league knew about it I would have expected them to take charge of the balls to ensure that no funny business takes place as this was a playoff game not a preseason match.

If the gauges were faulty, they would have been faulty for both teams.

the decrease at halftime is explainable by weather

They were. Read the report. One thing you have to keep in mind is that the starting point for the Colts balls was higher than the starting point for the Patriots balls. You also have to keep in mind that the Colts balls sat in the warm locker room at halftime for 10 minutes before they were tested.

maybe, maybe not. If the balls were inflated and checked inside a locker room at a high temperature (high relative to outside temps), then yes, there would be some impact, but it would be minimal - less than 1 PSI lost.

But, if they were checked after inflation outside at temps, then there would be no impact, or a negligible amount.

As someone who officiates real football, often in very cold conditions, I can tell you that my experience is a ball pumped up indoors loses less than 5% PSI when taking it outdoors. If pumped up outdoors, then it loses nothing. Inflation amounts are similar, in real football I put 12 PSI in each ball, using my handy gauge that cost a whopping $8...every ball is inflated to 12 PSI, and unless the ball has a leak, they stay at 12 PSI. If there is a leak, it wouldn't drop to 10 PSI and stay there, it would drop to near empty.

although I may go with the ghosts option above

As those of you who were visiting PFT frequently in the early days of #DeflateGate may recall, the Ideal Gas Law refers to the formula that determines the changes in gases based on various factors, including but not limited to volume, pressure, and temperature. And the Wells report concludes that all Patriots footballs should have measured between 11.52 and 11.32 PSI at halftime.

But that observation hinges on the question of which gauge was used to set the PSI prior to kickoff. If the gauge that generates the higher numbers was used, the measurements of the Patriots footballs taken by that gauge are mostly consistent with the 11.52-11.32 PSI range at halftime: (1) 11.8; (2) 11.2; (3) 11.5; (4) 11.0; (5) 11.45; (6) 11.95; (7) 12.3; (8) 11.55; (9) 11.35; (10) 10.9; and (11) 11.35.

Based on those readings, three of the footballs were above the predicted range, five were in the predicted range, and three were below the predicted range.

By assuming that the gauge that generates the lower readings was used before the game began, the readings taken by that same gauge at halftime show that one ball was above the predicted range, two were in the predicted range, and eight were below the predicted range. Which is more consistent with the conclusion that some degree of tampering occurred.

So, basically, the scientific proof of tampering hinges on a literal coin flip between the pressure gauge that generated a higher reading and the pressure gauge that generated a lower reading. Apart from the very real problems inherent to the NFL using pressure gauges that generate such dramatically different readings for a key postseason game, the justification used to assume that Walt Anderson used before kickoff the gauge that makes tampering more likely doesn’t feel like the outcome of a scientific experiment. It feels like an effort to work backward to justify a predetermined conclusion.

so if I read the "science" behind the PFT point you posted, either way they had too many balls under inflated at halftime...be it 3 or 8...

not sure i'm understanding the point you are trying to make. Maybe that they cheated but not as much as the NFL claims?

Let me get this straight.

Patriots are fined $1 Mil.

Brady sits, saving Patriots $2 Mil in salary.

Patriots are up $1 Mil, and they have a fresh, healthy quarterback for the Colts game.

How did they get penalized?

My point is that there are flaws to the data so you don't get to pick and choose which parts of the data you believe. So let's say that deliberate deflation did occur. If you accept that Walt Coleman says every single Patriots ball was at 12.5 before the game, and if you accept that weather causes the pressure to drop in all of the balls, to an scientifically expected 11.5 - 11.32 range, how do you explain the 12.3 psi ball? Was Coleman wrong? Was at least one ball over 12.5 to start the game? Did McNally add air to that particular ball? Or is it possible that the whole process of checking pressure before the game and checking pressure at halftime was so filled with flaws that it invalidates all of the pressure data?

How many games do they lose while Brady sits? What impact on the long-term strength of the team do the forfeited draft picks have?

Wells report claims 11 of 12 as they did not count the one that the Colts tested

Wells report claims 11 of 12 as they did not count the one that the Colts tested

Wells report could have said with equal accuracy "3 of 11 balls tested were below the expected range on one of the gauges used". Which quote produces more emotional buy-in to the desired outcome conclusion when combined with other circumstantial evidence?

the more games they lose the better the next draft pick is.

so then at least 8 we can say?

Which said draft pick is forfeited, so what does it matter how good it is? The short term penalty against the Patriots is possible losses. The long term penalty against the Patriots is lost draft picks, made worse by the fact that with the losses, those picks would have been higher picks.

Why did the report come out days after the current draft?

Because the NFL is incompetent.

My point is that there are flaws to the data so you don't get to pick and choose which parts of the data you believe. So let's say that deliberate deflation did occur. If you accept that Walt Coleman says every single Patriots ball was at 12.5 before the game, and if you accept that weather causes the pressure to drop in all of the balls, to an scientifically expected 11.5 - 11.32 range, how do you explain the 12.3 psi ball? Was Coleman wrong? Was at least one ball over 12.5 to start the game? Did McNally add air to that particular ball? Or is it possible that the whole process of checking pressure before the game and checking pressure at halftime was so filled with flaws that it invalidates all of the pressure data?

That would be the reason that they let Manning and Brady dictate the stupid rule in the first place.

I'll stick with "ghosts are responsible" unless the Al Gore study proves otherwise

Yet another point of agreement. Although it wasn't just Brady and Manning. They were the spokespeople for a lot of other QBs who also were vocal in wanting the change. If the condition, including the pressure, is important to the league, then the league should control the balls. If the condition, including the pressure isn't important, then why have the rule to begin with.

Ed, you and I will have to get together at some point and verbally debate this over a couple of adult beverages. I think I would enjoy that very much.

Perhaps some Haterade should be served

Didn't Trent Dilfer state on an ESPN analysis of the whole event that literally every quarterback has a routine with the balls each week (my goodness that sounds bad)in which they do various things to them (this is getting worse) in order to enhance their play? I recall him stating that whether it's shaving, softening, etc. every quarterback in the NFL now, then, forever, has a routine in which they attempt to alter the ball in some way shape or form.

Happy, I said 15 years. And just because A.J. Feeley says today that it happened 11 years ago doesn't prove anything happened 11 years ago.

Why is he just now bringing it up?

Brad Johnson admits to scuffing his balls up in 2002. Where is the outrage?

Aaron Rodgers admits liking his balls to be over the 13.5 psi. Where is the outrage?

Fact is, PSI has been in the rule book since at least the 1940's but has never been something the NFL even paid close attention to until it decided to make an example of the Patriots.

Even as late as last season when both the Panthers and Vikings were televised heating balls on the sidelines during a particularly frigid game, the league simply told them to stop doing that. Where is the outrage?

Didn't Trent Dilfer state on an ESPN analysis of the whole event that literally every quarterback has a routine with the balls each week (my goodness that sounds bad)in which they do various things to them (this is getting worse) in order to enhance their play? I recall him stating that whether it's shaving, softening, etc. every quarterback in the NFL now, then, forever, has a routine in which they attempt to alter the ball in some way shape or form.

And by the way, the Cheatriots thing is definitely not original. Urban Dictionary from 2007: www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cheatriots In fact, it's pretty old and worn out by now.

And aren't the Saints guilty of some "cheating" themselves in their recent past?

And how about the Falcons and Browns.

And didn't the Seahawks have a lot of issues with PEDs? And how about salary cap cheating by the Broncos?

Sure, the "everyone does it" doesn't make it right. But you'd be hard pressed to find a team in competitive sports that hasn't tripped up on rules violations in some form or another by intentionally trying to find a competitive edge.

doesn't mean it didn't, either


because he is looking to resurrect a broadcasting career?


i'm working on my outrage now


liking it and doing it are 2 different things...if they prove he does it, i'll up my "who cares" to a "mild outrage"


hmmm...crux of the argument?


heating is not an issue unless it alters the PSI above/below approved levels.

darn, and here I was thinking I was an original


yep, there was an accusation that was overturned on appeal against the players. likely the coaches/GM would have been overturned as well but they don't have a collective bargaining agreement that allows an appeal.


I believe you are correct

not familiar with either of these


not sure I understand the point here unless it is to say we should just ignore it because everyone does it even if it doesn't make it right

In this way, professional sports is certainly symptomatic of our society in general, from companies to individuals.

And we've seen it happen even in Little League baseball.

Technically he still didn't get caught. He "probably" got caught.

We all fall short of the glory, no doubt about that. But we should strive to live by the rules and play fair, whether you are in t-ball or in the pros.

Happy, I said 15 years. And just because A.J. Feeley says today that it happened 11 years ago doesn't prove anything happened 11 years ago. Why is he just now bringing it up? Brad Johnson admits to scuffing his balls up in 2002. Where is the outrage? Aaron Rodgers admits liking his balls to be over the 13.5 psi. Where is the outrage? Fact is, PSI has been in the rule book since at least the 1940's but has never been something the NFL even paid close attention to until it decided to make an example of the Patriots. Even as late as last season when both the Panthers and Vikings were televised heating balls on the sidelines during a particularly frigid game, the league simply told them to stop doing that. Where is the outrage?

http://wellsreportcontext.com/

Some of this makes sense. Some of it is just dumb (like the "deflator" being related to losing weight).

At the end of the day, I don't know if they manipulated air pressure or not. I've heard good, compelling arguments on both sides. I get that many people, who either already believe the Patriots are a pathologically cheating organization, or have only heard one side of the legitimate arguments, will think it's plain that they cheated here. As someone who wants to believe that they didn't cheat, even I have doubts, so I get why so many are adamant that they did.

But I do think if you had a jury trying this, with a standard of preponderance of evidence, I think you'd wind up with a jury deadlocked at 10 - 2 or 9 - 3 for conviction.

I get that many people, who either already believe the Patriots are a pathologically cheating organization, or have only heard one side of the legitimate arguments, will think it's plain that they cheated here.

do I think the Patriots have a history of cheating? - yes

So do the Saints.

So do the Saints. So do the 49ers. So do the Broncos. So do the Falcons. So do the Browns. So do the Seahawks. So do the Jets. So do the Dolphins. Shall I go on? Does a team's history taint them forever?

not sure I would call one time - that was overturned on appeal - a history...but if it makes you feel better, knock yourself out

not sure I would call one time - that was overturned on appeal - a history...but if it makes you feel better, knock yourself out

Jets and Dolphins? Cheaters usually win a few games.

So do the Saints. So do the 49ers. So do the Broncos. So do the Falcons. So do the Browns. So do the Seahawks. So do the Jets. So do the Dolphins. Shall I go on? Does a team's history taint them forever?

How does this become justification for the action? Because other people are cheating I can too?

Bad memory
?

Hours after leaving tampa he signed with the pats not even enough time for him to contact his to Contact his atty.

Cheating is purpusly taking an unfair advantage. Offsides, illegal formation unnessary rougness, (see Nfl on field penalties)is not cheating. See Patriots for cultural cheating.

http://yourteamcheats.com

Now if he discussed contract terms with a player while under contract that should be tampering.

"otherwise, we are to believe their level of cheating far surpasses anyone else's."


Yes now you get it

I would think that deflating a football cheating as much as having movable goal posts that are closer for the home team than the visiting

Not my logic at all. See post #2014576 above. But your logic seems to be that because the Patriots have cheated before, how could this not be cheating.

I am so rabidly pro-Patriots

I agree that the NFL is not independent enough to review what happened. Here is my problem with the whole situation. Belichek has cheated and Brady has cheated (maybe two different situations but I still contend B knew about the balls.

So what should the NFL do? IMO what Brady did tarnished the game, his own legacy, and put into question all past Super Bowls won by him. It also makes me question his ability, statistics, and career. So what should the NFL do about someone who knowingly compensates and puts undue influence on someone to help him cheat. I don't know. The NFL has an interest in keeping Brady in the league. He is a fan favorite, the Patriots are a winning team, and banning him or B would tarnish the last 15 years of the NFL. So they won't do anything with any teeth. The problem is that Brady did not commit any crime. So who would look at this type of thing? I personally do not know. But the punishment fitting what Brady did was a lifetime ban from the NFL.

was the admission made during or following his playing career?

Former Patriots tackle Matt Light is doing something very creative with the whole deflategate circus for the good of his charitable foundation - www.inflationnationraffle.com

"If ya ain't cheatin', ya ain't trying"

Everyone tries to get an advantage vs. their opponent, whether it's deflating balls, pumping in crowd noise, or steroids. As long as you have competition, you're going to have cheating. The Patriots were just the ones that were caught.

Why does it matter? Doesn't it still tarnish his legacy, and bring into question all his stats and Super Bowl wins?

certainly it matters as it relates to the current game. While it may tarnish his legacy, it has no impact on the next game the 49ers play. If Brady was retired and came out in 2 years and said "hey, I told the equipment guy to deflate the balls in 2014" that has a huge difference over "the nfl has found that brady was involved in the deflation of balls last season in a playoff win."

certainly you are able to discern the difference, no?

I still do not believe that everyone in the NFL has no integrity, See beach post above.

SoundTactic made the statement that Brady's cheating actions tarnish his reputation, his statistics, all his Super Bowl wins. Sox said you could say the same thing about Jerry Rice's cheating actions - that if what is said about Brady is true, then it should be true about Jerry Rice too. I don't see where the timing of any determination of guilt has any impact on whether there is tarnish to reputation, statistics and Super Bowl wins.

cowboys are "America's team", which goes back to the Tom Landry/Roger Staubach days, when there was integrity in football....

It is a movie!!!!

So says the guy who thinks the people in Game of Thrones aren't real.

well, he was until his series was cancelled

A Boston Herald sportswriter recently stated he heard the only reason Robert Kraft accepted the punishment levied against the New England Patriots by the NFL in the wake of the Deflategate scandal stems from the notion that Bill Belichick suspected Tom Brady wasn’t being totally honest with him.

During an episode of “Sports Tonight,” CBS Boston’s Michael Felger floated the theory that neither Belichick nor Kraft never were certain Brady was being truthful with them about his alleged role in what spawned Deflategate. It was decided by Kraft after discussing it with Belichick that he would wave the proverbial white flag — albeit with a stated reluctance — and accept the punishment administered by the NFL on the Patriots.

The Herald’s Ron Borges, also appearing on the show, appeared to corroborate Felger’s theory by relaying that he heard Belichick never believed Brady from the get-go.

“Belichick never believed his story, from what I was told,” said Borges, via a CSNNE report. “Because they all know. Why do you think all those retired quarterbacks, the Troy Aikmans of the world — Troy Aikman is about as nice a guy as I’ve ever met in football — nobody’s backed [Brady]. Nobody, not a single guy. Why do you think that is? Because they hate Brady? No. Because they’re not stupid. They know nothing’s done with those balls that the quarterback doesn’t want done.”

Borges certainly is weaving a tangled web with this story, one that certainly could threaten to cripple the Patriots organization. Any whiff of distrust between Belichick and Brady could hamstring the near future of the Patriots once Brady’s fate is determined pending his appeal of his four-game suspension.

Speaking of Brady’s suspension, some have speculated that Kraft accepted the league’s $1 million fine as well as the loss of draft picks in 2016 and 2017. If Borges story is accurate — and Felger’s theory proves true — it was much more a demonstration of little faith in their Super Bowl-winning quarterback than it was an attempt to help him.

In the end, regardless of whether Brady’s suspension is upheld, reduced or wiped out entirely, no one likely will ever know the truth. And that’s what makes for a fantastic conspiracy theory.

Felger and Borges are as anti Patriot as it gets here in New England for what its worth.

Interesting information for what it is worth:

http://yourteamcheats.com/cheaters/

The article pretty much sums up what was agreed here that the NFL is not competent but it proves or disproves nothing. I also do not think that it will change the suspension as someone's mind is made up.

I agree the players have no right to whine since they agreed to let the Commissioner be judge and jury-that is their problem.

I do think there is enough in this report for Gooddell to consider reducing the suspension. The Wells report is shaky at best. The NFL completely bungled this issue.

There is no way the 4 game suspension sticks.

not NFL but still cheaters (allegedly)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/sports/baseball/st-louis-cardinals-hack-astros-fbi.html?_r=0

not NFL but still cheaters (allegedly)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/sports/baseball/st-louis-cardinals-hack-astros-fbi.html?_r=0

It must be difficult knowing you paid $5 million for a "report" that isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Just saying.

http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newe...-during-season/

one would have though that the kicking team would want a fully inflated ball.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell upheld Patriots quarterback Tom Brady’s four-game Deflategate suspension, the league announced Tuesday.

The NFL indicated in its release on the decision that a key factor was Brady ordering that his cellphone be destroyed.

From the NFL’s release:

“On or shortly before March 6, the day that Tom Brady met with independent investigator Ted Wells and his colleagues, Brady directed that the cellphone he had used for the prior four months be destroyed. He did so even though he was aware that the investigators had requested access to text messages and other electronic information that had been stored on that phone.

“During the four months that the cellphone was in use, Brady had exchanged nearly 10,000 text messages, none of which can now be retrieved from that device. The destruction of the cellphone was not disclosed until June 18, almost four months after the investigators had first sought electronic information from Brady.

“Based on the Wells Report and the evidence presented at the hearing, Commissioner Goodell concluded in his decision that Brady was aware of, and took steps to support, the actions of other team employees to deflate game footballs below the levels called for by the NFL’s Official Playing Rules. The commissioner found that Brady’s deliberate destruction of potentially relevant evidence went beyond a mere failure to cooperate in the investigation and supported a finding that he had sought to hide evidence of his own participation in the underlying scheme to alter the footballs.”

“The Commissioner’s decision is deeply disappointing, but not surprising because the appeal process was thoroughly lacking in procedural fairness. Most importantly, neither Tom nor the Patriots did anything wrong. And the NFL has no evidence that anything inappropriate occurred,” said Brady’s agent, Don Yee, in a statement released Tuesday afternoon. “The appeal process was a sham, resulting in the Commissioner rubber-stamping his own decision.”

The NFL explained its decision in a 20-page report that accompanied its announcement. According to the report, Brady testified at his suspension appeal hearing on June 23 that it is standard practice for him, or his assistant, to destroy his old cellphones and SIM cards upon acquiring a new one.

He began using a new phone “on or about March 6,” which is also the day he met with Ted Wells and investigators to be interviewed about Deflategate.

Goodell served as the arbitrator for the appeal hearing, which was held at NFL headquarters in New York on June 23. The closed-door hearing lasted 11 hours, and ESPN reported that nearly 40 people were in the room.

Among the witnesses was Wells, who led the Deflategate investigation that resulted in Brady’s four-game suspension. Wells confirmed he testified but didn’t offer any details.

Though Patriots owner Robert Kraft was not at the hearing, he wrote a letter on Brady’s behalf.

Brady’s legal team argued that not only did Wells find no definitive proof of a scheme to deflate game balls in the AFC Championship game against the Colts or of Brady having any knowledge of such a plan, it also claimed Brady’s punishment was far too harsh based on precedent — a four-game suspension would cost Brady $1.88 million.

Brady was initially notified of his suspension by NFL vice president of football operations Troy Vincent on May 11. The Patriots were also penalized, losing a first-round draft pick in 2016, a fourth-round pick in 2017, and fined a league-record $1 million.

On May 14, the NFL Players Association filed an appeal on Brady’s behalf.

In its letter to Vincent, which was signed by NFLPA general counsel Tom DePaso, the union outlined three major points as to why Brady’s punishment should be vacated or reduced.

The first: Under the collective bargaining agreement, Vincent does not have the authority to determine and mete out discipline, only Goodell does.

“As both Mr. Brady’s discipline letter and the NFL’s public statements make clear, you were tasked by Commissioner Goodell to determine whether Mr. Brady should be subject to discipline for conduct detrimental in connection with the events described in the Wells Report, and if so, to decide and impose the discipline,” the letter said. “And you have, in fact, imposed Mr. Brady’s discipline pursuant to the Commissioner’s purported delegation of his authority.

“Any such delegation is a plain violation of the CBA. The CBA grants the Commissioner — and only the Commissioner — the authority to impose conduct detrimental discipline on players.”

Another of the union’s points of contention was that Brady’s four-game suspension was far too harsh given precedent and punishment given to other players for similar infractions; and it also attacked the credibility of the Wells Report.

Just hours after the appeal was filed, news emerged that Goodell intended to serve as the appeals officer. The NFLPA then demanded that Goodell recuse himself and appoint a neutral arbitrator, arguing in part that if the league truly believed the Wells Report was a fair and independent investigation, it should have no problem having an independent individual oversee the appeal.

Additionally, the NFLPA made clear its intention of calling Goodell and Vincent as witnesses at the hearing, and having the commissioner as de facto judge and witness would complicate that.

On May 22, NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith, appearing on ESPN, said the union had not gotten a response from Goodell on whether he would recuse himself and if there wasn’t a response within a week, the union would “turn up the volume” on its request.

A report came a short time after Smith’s interview aired that Goodell had decided to remain as arbitrator, but a league spokesmen said Goodell had not made his decision. Rather, the NFL’s lawyers had submitted their arguments to Goodell as to why he should not hand off the hearing to a different arbitrator.

To suggest that I destroyed a phone to avoid giving the NFL information it requested is completely wrong."

I agree the union shouldn't whine about something they agreed to in the CBA.

I love how it is now a fact that Brady tried to destroy evidence. Not withhold evidence, but destroy it. This must be the act of an innocent party. I once heard a law enforcement psychologist say that the innocent become angry when wrongfully accused. The innocent do not try to destroy the evidence.

Anyone who would be proud of this guy or his championships (especially this one) must be a supporter of cheating. Any lesser player (IE not the face of a franchise) would be banned from the league for tarnishing the integrity of the game.

and other than creating fodder for many, this really has no bearing on anything real world.

will people stop watching football? nope
will people stop loving the Patriots? nope
will people stop hating the patriots? nope
will people move from loving to hating the patriots? nope
will footballs ratings drop? nope
will Goodell look like he is the right executive to lead this organization? nope

See we can agree on something's.

I thought you came back to Brady's corner.

So because Lance was dishonest, it must mean Tom is being dishonest?

So because Lance was dishonest, it must mean Tom is being dishonest?

I don't disagree. Nor is everything said by a multi-billion dollar enterprise (NFL) true - shall I start digging up some Enron quotes?

In today's TMZ fueled media world, I can't blame Brady for destroying a phone that people were vying to get their hands on and that destruction wouldn't have anything to do with football texts. Brady and his lawyers are smart enough to know that the phone destruction would look bad in the court of public opinion. My gut says there was something on that phone that would have been even more reputation damaging than the conclusions drawn. My gut also says that whatever it is, there is a good chance it has nothing to do with footballs.

...My gut says there was something on that phone that would have been even more reputation damaging than the conclusions drawn. My gut also says that whatever it is, there is a good chance it has nothing to do with footballs.

For those who are protesting Brady's innocence in this entire issue, what, if anything, would be compelling evidence that would make you think otherwise? or, is there any evidence that would make you think he was guilty? or at least knowledgeable?

And if he did text the equipment guys, could they not obtain the equipment guys phones and see if they received text from Brady? Wouldn't need Tom's phone.

They did obtain their phones and there were no texts from Brady.

"To try and reconcile the record and fully cooperate with the investigation after I was disciplined in May, we turned over detailed pages of cell phone records and all of the emails that Mr. Wells requested. We even contacted the phone company to see if there was any possible way we could retrieve any/all of the actual text messages from my old phone. In short, we exhausted every possibility to give the NFL everything we could and offered to go thru the identity for every text and phone call during the relevant time. Regardless, the NFL knows that Mr. Wells already had ALL relevant communications with Patriots personnel that either Mr. Wells saw or that I was questioned about in my appeal hearing. There is no "smoking gun" and this controversy is manufactured to distract from the fact they have zero evidence of wrongdoing.

if you look at my phone, I have no texts either, I delete them after I read them...doesn't everyone?

I don't but my ex-wife used to

email is same way, answer and delete...

you just let your texts grow and grow? I get a text from my kid asking a question, I answer and delete. texts from others are the same way. email is same way, answer and delete...I hate clutter

have not yet seen anything that directly links him to the allegations.

If this were being tried by the standards of our country's legal system, I don't think there is a chance he would be charged much less convicted.

I very much doubt that Brady was texting with these knucklehead locker room attendants or anyone else about this. I think he either did not feel that the league had the authority to go through his personal cell phone or he felt there was something on his phone that would damage his reputation much more than this scandal.

I think that the players union should take note of this and several other scandals that have hit the sport in the past few years and fight in the next contract to have these things decided by an arbitration committee of some sort rather than giving the commissioner all of this power. The questionable investigations and punishments are hurting the sport almost as much as the incidents themselves.

More important than Brady’s alleged role in altering the footballs was his lack of cooperation with the investigation. The NFL’s collective bargaining agreement requires players to cooperate with all investigations, but Brady refused to turn over his cell phone and it was later revealed that he had an assistant destroy the phone before meeting with investigators. That, as much as the actual rules violation, is what the NFL is punishing.

Even if, and I do say IF, Brady did it for argument's sake, can we agree that the 4 games is overly harsh?

if anything, I think it is too lenient. you have plenty of instances where players are doing things off field not related to football, not impacting the game, just "damaging the NFL's reputation", and they get a much longer suspension, and those have no impact on the game. Here, you have something with direct impact on the game, alteration of outcome of games, and definitely creates a black eye for the game and the league. 4 games is easy.

if anything, I think it is too lenient. you have plenty of instances where players are doing things off field not related to football, not impacting the game, just "damaging the NFL's reputation", and they get a much longer suspension, and those have no impact on the game. Here, you have something with direct impact on the game, alteration of outcome of games, and definitely creates a black eye for the game and the league. 4 games is easy.

Off the field would also entail PEDs that would absolutely relate to football.

No 4 game suspensions for the same violation of doctoring footballs despite it being caught on video:

http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-viking...anthers-vikings


I will wait for the explanations as to how this is different.

they should add additional time for that horrendous shirt he is wearing in his mug shot...

I hope you aren't awaiting an explanation from me, as I don't have one, that would fall to the NFL. And we all agree they are inconsistent in their application of punishment.

And that's the primary basis of the NFLPA court case against the NFL.

If they used Nerf ball Tebow would have a chance starting somewhere.

And that's the primary basis of the NFLPA court case against the NFL.

He is lucky he is not penalized for tarnishing the game like Pete Rose was. Brady is a liar, and a cheater.

OK, so ... Brady went out of his way to make sure that the balls were inflated to 12.5 psi so they weren't against the rules?

"How many times do I have to say it? ... Well, if it can't be any clearer than `I've never taken drugs,'"

"We're sick and tired of these allegations and we're going to do everything we can to fight them. They're absolutely untrue" –

"At the end of the day, I have nothing to hide," –

"I have never doped"

Lance Armstrong Quotes

snip from http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdo...-204813564.html

In reference to the 20 page report from Goodell justifying his upholding of the suspension:


1. The second factual finding made makes little sense to upholding the punishment

Read this and tell me what is wrong with it:

"Second, at least by the time of the AFC Championship Game, the inflation level of the footballs was a matter of particular interest to Mr. Brady. He told the Patriots' equipment staff that he wanted the footballs inflated at the lowest permissible level; he reviewed a highlighted copy of the provision of the Playing Rules that addressed inflation of footballs; and he instructed the equipment staff to present a copy of the rule to the game officials. On the day of the AFC Championship Game, Mr. McNally told referee Walt Anderson that Mr. Brady wanted the balls inflated to a pressure of 12.5 psi. He told the investigators that "Tom ... always has me pass a message to the Official's [sic] that he likes the balls at the minimum permissible PSI of 12.5. ... I know this is what Tom wants, and I have been personally told by him of the ball weight preference."

OK, so ... Brady went out of his way to make sure that the balls were inflated to 12.5 psi so they weren't against the rules? That's exactly what that says, that Brady went out of his way to make sure the balls were to his preference but still within the rules, going so far as to review the rulebook to make sure. Yet the NFL presents this as, "Well he did all of this legally BUT IT MAKES YA THINK DOESN'T IT?"



My thought all along is that Brady expressed his preference of having the ball as close to the 12.5 psi minimum. Now, if the ballboy took it upon himself to deflate beyond that, the employee should be punished accordingly. Without proof Brady told them to deflate them below 12.5, he shouldn't be punished. 4 games for not cooperating is unprecedented and ridiculous.

I heard Brady live on WEEI radio the morning after they beat the Colts and one of the first questions asked was what he knew about the reports after the game related to the low PSI footballs. He said he had no idea. I am sure after hearing that he started calling the equipment guys asking if they knew what was going on.

In most cases, the cover up is worse than the crime.

http://hushsports.com/2009-jets-patriots-incident-becomes-issue-in-brady-case-nbcsports-com/

so in 2009 the Pats whined about the Jets tampering with footballs (5 years earlier). And to compare a Kicker to a QB is way out there. Blecheat claim about not knowing about anything air pressure has also now been deflated.