Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ********

Posted By: Anonymous

Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 08:39 PM

Why is it that the US is always so willing to help out other countries in crisis and not jump in with both feet when people in the US need help. This has always driven me crazy.

Check this out: According to the most recent Census Bureau statistics, nearly 36 million Americans lived in poverty in 2003, an increase of 1.3 million from 2002. And since 2000, 4.4 million more people in this country are living in poverty.

Fear and hunger walk hand in hand with poverty, and last year 12.6 million American households -- 11.2 percent of all American homes -- were afraid they might not be able to put enough food on the table, according to the Census Bureau. That's up more than 1.6 million households from the year 2000. Of these families, 3.9 million said that one or more members of the family actually went hungry last year -- an 18.2 percent increase from 2000.
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 08:46 PM

I agree, a buddy of mine (Buddy's buddy ) used to give to one of those feed the children things he saw on tv, after a long debate he started to donate money to the united way and other places that helped Americans that are in need...
Posted By: Retired DQ

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 08:51 PM

I agree! I donate to the U.S. poor.

And, I do know that this topic will trigger an enormous backlash from the right-wing-nuts because they believe in hand-ups and not hand-outs. Best of luck.
Posted By: rainman

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 09:01 PM

Quote:

And, I do know that this topic will trigger an enormous backlash from the right-wing-nuts because they believe in hand-ups and not hand-outs.



Actually DD, a true right-wing "nut" should be doing (i.e., donating, volunteering, etc.) more than others, because they believe that the "handouts" should (for the most part) come voluntarily from the private sector (individuals, churches, etc.) rather than by force of law (pay your taxes or go to jail) from the government.

A conservative who is not helping those less fortunate is talking the talk without walking the walk!
Posted By: Retired DQ

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 09:03 PM

Well, that is refreshing.
Posted By: GreatBlue

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 09:05 PM

I don't understand why you can't do both. But, if you want to give to the most extreme need, it isn't here in the U.S. There are so many safety nets and charitable organizations here that no one really has to be hungry. That's not true for a large part of the world.
Posted By: Queen Mum

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 09:12 PM

There are so many safety nets and charitable organizations here that no one really has to be hungry.
___________________________________________________________

If that's true, then why are so many people living in poverty!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 09:15 PM

The U.S. State Department said an additional $20 million in aid will be added to the $15 million the United States has already pledged for nations hit by the tsunamis.

I bet we could feed a few US Homeless people and maybe even give them something to wear with $35 million.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 09:21 PM

I love everyone saying take care of the Homeless at home instead of those elsewhere. They are probably the same people who complain that the rest of the world hates the US.

I bet we spend WAY MORE than $35 million a year on unemployment, community shelters, job training programs, etc. here in the US every year. The problem isn't financing it is that many of the "homeless" really aren't homeless at all, and that they find it easier to collect donations than get a job. Many of them spend any money given to them on drugs and alcohol instead of bettering their lives.
Posted By: bluebanker

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 09:22 PM

We have to do it because we're the only super power left. We're left with the responsibility of doing things for people that they can't do themselves. That's why we continue to deal with the Middle East and 3rd world African countries (i.e. Somolia). I agree that we have to do a lot more here in the U.S., but unfortunately we have to deal with other people's crap first. If we don't, then others will complain that we only care about ourselves. Either way, people will find a reason to rant!
Posted By: GreatBlue

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 09:32 PM

Quote:

There are so many safety nets and charitable organizations here that no one really has to be hungry.
___________________________________________________________

If that's true, then why are so many people living in poverty!



I'm not saying there are not people in the U.S. living in poverty, or even that there are not people who are hungry. I'm just saying that there is almost always some way for a person in the U.S. to get enough to eat to survive. I'm also not saying I don't think we should help those within our own country who are in need, I absolutely do. But I also know that the poverty faced here in America is nothing compared to much of the world.
Posted By: JacF

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 10:00 PM

Pardon me for sounding cynical, but could the problem be that we let politicians define the word 'poverty'?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 10:02 PM

Let them eat cake.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 10:08 PM

Here's a thought, let's give everyone else money and then outsource our US jobs to them as well.
Posted By: HRH Dawnie

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 10:15 PM

I'd rather the money went here than Iraq. There is true homelessness in the US. I completely agree we should deal with our own back yard before we handle others, but we don't. Mostly because people don't believe we have true poverty here, homelessness, etc.

We need something like 14,000 homes in the arctic to aleviate severe overcrowding. The overcrowing in substandard homes causes disease and early child deaths. There is no "homelesness" if someone lives in an un-insultaed wood shack, despite the fact that they're freezing (According to the US Standards of Homelessness).

But if we spent one day's worth of war money on these victoms, and another day's money on American poverty, we'd be a heck of a lot better off.
Posted By: kfridge

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 11:17 PM

Poverty here is not the same as poverty in, say, Rowanda.
Posted By: HRH Dawnie

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 11:20 PM

So we should meet that level before we help out our own?
Posted By: GreatBlue

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 11:23 PM

Quote:

I completely agree we should deal with our own back yard before we handle others, but we don't.



I've never understood this argument. Are you saying that we have no business sending aid to other countries unless we have wiped out poverty here?

Forget poverty, how about AIDS? Should we stamp out the disease here before we provide any AIDS assistance in the rest of the world?

Again, I am not saying there is not poverty or homelessness here. And I am not saying that we should not give to help those people, I'm just asking why it has to be at the exclusion of the rest of the world.

If you have $200 to give away, you could give it to your local rescue mission, a very worthy cause, and one I completely support, or you could give it to a relief effort for those impacted by the Tsunami, also a very worthy cause. Why can't you just follow your own heart in this and let others follow theirs?
Posted By: kfridge

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 11:25 PM

I was simply saying that poverty is a subjective term. I forget what the US poverty level is defined as by the US government, but it's probably a higher income level that most citizens make in some 3rd world countries. I wasn't wieghing in, or giving my opinion as to what our government should do. I was simply saying that poverty here and poverty elsewhere is apples to oranges. Sheesh...
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 11:30 PM

Quote:

I was simply saying that poverty here and poverty elsewhere is apples to oranges.



That's exactly right. Someone living in "poverty" here would undoubtedly be considered "rich" by the majority of the rest of the world. These terms are relative.

While our government spends money on job training and independent living, people in other nations are hoping for a meal this week.
Posted By: Chiquita Banana

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 11:51 PM

Quote:

That's exactly right. Someone living in "poverty" here would undoubtedly be considered "rich" by the majority of the rest of the world. These terms are relative.



What is the world coming to when I agree with Michael P and Jokerman on the same topic? Creepy.

In this country, you have more of a choice to control your environment. There are much more opportunities for the 'poor' and 'impoverished' in this country. Yes, homelessness is a huge issue in this country but it's not a black and white issue. You simply can not throw money at it. We need to rework the healthcare systems in order to address the mental health of the homeless people. We need to further work the welfare system to not allow such dependency.

But this country's poverty is not comparable to the poverty of, say, Rwanda. Nor is it even on the same scale in numbers.

Morality alone should dictate that this country should step in and step up to help the people hit by this tragedy. The sheer number of dead is absolutely staggering. We need to help not only with money but with service as well. To say, we need to keep it here is, in my opinion, extremely arrogant and short sighted.

If I could, I would be on a plane today to help out those people. I can't imagine what it would be to have your entire family, your neighbors family, your home, your entire town, wiped out so suddenly. It just blows my mind.
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/28/04 11:54 PM

Quote:


I've never understood this argument. Are you saying that we have no business sending aid to other countries unless we have wiped out poverty here?


(and here we go......)
Yes we should wipe out poverty here in America before wiping it out everywhere else. I hear republicans everyday talking about giving their tax money to the poor, how it should be their right to decide if they want to help the poor. Well we live in the real world where, yes, your money is taken by the government and given to the poor no matter what you think, want, or say. I would rather see that money go to the people in America who are dieing rather than a country on the other side of the world. As someone (I think Dawnie) mentioned earlier, look at how much money we send to other countries, do you not think we could use that money here in the states? Maybe for better school systems, to feed the many hungry people in America, to house the homeless, to pay our fire houses that keep shutting down, for the war on drugs, war on crime, war on terrorism, the list goes on. How do you think the poor here in America feel when they see all this money going to other countries? I'm not talking about the guy that lives off his welfare, but the guy that lost his job and his house and is trying still to be a better person. How does he feel when George sends another billion dollars to other countries.
(come and get me)
Posted By: HRH Dawnie

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 12:02 AM

While I'd agree that generally "poverty" here is better than elsewhere, it's not all that way. We still have babies dying of respratory illness just like in third world countries. We should be able to beat this, we're America! And I know I sound hard hearted GB. I believe we should help out other countries, and we do, but we should help our folks first. If their country won't help them, why is it our responsability? As long as a child goes without a meal here, we owe it to see that child fed before we move on to another child.
Posted By: GreatBlue

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 12:14 AM

Having seen true poverty first hand in such places as Calcutta, Delhi, and Nairobi, I just can't agree with "If their country won't help them, why is it our responsibility?" I believe all human life has value, and I don't see the lives of Americans of being of any more value than of the woman and her children I saw sleeping in the Delhi train station.

I would be very interested to know if your (and Buddy's) philosoply extends beyond poverty to AIDS.
Posted By: Viking Princess

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 12:21 AM

IMO, and it's strictly that - one life should not be valued over another. If we have means to help another life than let's do it. People in America have so many ways to better themselves and yet choose not to. Many of our homeless people could have jobs yet they choose to "bum" off others and let others pay their way through life, yet other countries such as Thailand are homeless now because their homes were washed to sea. So when do we draw the line as to helping our own - whom may very well help themselves or have family that could take them in...or help those truly in need who were not fortunate to be raised in such a rich nation as America.? Just a thought.
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 12:27 AM

My opinion is that things as big as the Tsunami and the AIDS epidemic are things that America should try to help with, but things like tearing apart a country and then rebuilding it should be taken care of by the UN, the whole UN. I do think that there are some countries that do need our help, but there are Americans that we are leaving behind to help these other countries. Where do you think our tax money should go, to feed Americans,or to rebuild a country that we (as in the government)destroyed?? Now don't jump to conclusions, I do think that the world is better without Suddam, I just don't think we should have spent BILLIONS of dollars each day to catch him and rebuild Iraq.
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 02:28 PM

I am on the Board of Directors of a Homeless Shelter in Florida, and from what I have seen, the great majority (not all mind you, but most) of the homeless are homeless by choice. They are either unable or unwilling to accept help and cannot, for obvious reasons, control their addictions. Even though there is help available they make the decision to remain homeless.
Posted By: Lestie G

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 04:04 PM

So, we (the U.S.) shouldn't have spent any money to rebuild Japan, Germany, France, England, etc. after WWII?

Lest we forget - other nations offered to come to our aid when we needed it as well. Yes, we take care of our own - that's every citizen's responsibility, but we've got to be a good world citizen as well. That means we offer help when it's needed in other parts of the world.
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 04:16 PM

Did anyone see on the news this morning that some world organization (missed the beginning of the story - UN maybe??) said that the US does not willingly give enough aid and support to the rest of the world? What a crock.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 04:31 PM

I think that the this is comparing apples to oranges.

I see a big difference in providing blankets, tents, emergency food rations, malaria vaccinations, clean water, etc. to disaster-stricken areas overseas as completely different from the American system of "proverty relief" here at home.

I personally know a woman who, between the government assitance she receives, plus that of her "husband" and her kids - clears $3,600 per month. That's more than I do working for the bank.

They recently had to pawn the title to their car to make the house payment - because the house payment $ had been spent on an entry fee for her husband to enter a regional Nintendo contest. Strange, seeing as how he gets paid worker's comp for loss of the use of his hands.

I see poverty overseas as a question of underdevelopment, here as a matter of poor choices and the dependency culture.

Personally, I would love it if we increased our financial assistance to the poor here in the US 10 fold. Nay, 100 fold. For the next 30 years. Measure the relief from poverty we achieve. I believe that the results that the US would "achieve" would be simply astounding. Astoundingly bad, that is.
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 04:39 PM

Quote:

They recently had to pawn the title to their car to make the house payment - because the house payment $ had been spent on an entry fee for her husband to enter a regional Nintendo contest. Strange, seeing as how he gets paid worker's comp for loss of the use of his hands.




I agree with most of your post. Maybe this is someone that should be reported to the insurance company paying his bills?? This is what causes our insurance rates to go up. Stuff like that ticks me off.
Posted By: bluebanker

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 04:39 PM

Quote:

So, we (the U.S.) shouldn't have spent any money to rebuild Japan, Germany, France, England, etc. after WWII?

Lest we forget - other nations offered to come to our aid when we needed it as well. Yes, we take care of our own - that's every citizen's responsibility, but we've got to be a good world citizen as well. That means we offer help when it's needed in other parts of the world.



We didn't have much of a choice after WWII. We had to rebuild them cause they were destroyed. There's no point in being the winner if you're the only one left. (BTW, we're the ONLY country to ever win a war and then rebuild those that we defeated)

What aide are you referring to when saying that other countries help us? Are you talking about the growing detest for us? The refusal to stand up and support the United Nations' decisions? The inability to care about anything but themselves but as soon as something goes wrong, they call on us? I'm sick and tired of hearing people say that we are too involved in other places, but then bitch that we don't help enough. One or the other!
Posted By: D2Xs

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 04:47 PM

Quote:

Did anyone see on the news this morning that some world organization (missed the beginning of the story - UN maybe??) said that the US does not willingly give enough aid and support to the rest of the world? What a crock.



I read something about that. A woman from the U.N. said the U.S. was being stingy in its relief efforts. Sounds like Powell let her have it though. He stated that the U.S. give more aid than any other country in the world. There was more but I didn't finish the article.
Posted By: JacF

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 04:49 PM

I think you hit the nail on the head, anon.

Quote:

Personally, I would love it if we increased our financial assistance to the poor here in the US 10 fold. Nay, 100 fold. For the next 30 years. Measure the relief from poverty we achieve. I believe that the results that the US would "achieve" would be simply astounding. Astoundingly bad, that is.



Which brings me to my question: How long have social security, ssi, unemployment insurance, medicare, medicaid, food stamps, cash assistance, student grants (and student loans), and countless state, county, and local government programs been around? Shouldn't poverty have been solved by now? Now, I'm sure many folks have benefitted from the aforementioned programs, most of them honestly. So I think we have done alot to improve the quality of life for those that most needed the boost, but it is impossible to wipe out poverty entirely, for many reasons already stated.

But even if we managed to completely wipe out poverty, the politicians would redefine it, so they can continue to benefit from the class warfare. After all, unless you have a true communist economy, you will always have a bottom 10%, and someone willing to point it out.
Posted By: bluebanker

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 04:57 PM

Quote:

After all, unless you have a true communist economy, you will always have a bottom 10%, and someone willing to point it out.



Exactly. Our economy was based on the fact that hard work pays off. A poster earlier mentioned that a very good portion of the homeless are homeless by choice. What more should we do? I'd personally feel better about my money making our country safer, not forcing someone to take a handout.
Posted By: RR Sarah

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:28 PM

This is a very interesting debate. There was a time when I was the most liberal of liberals and wanted to help everyone. Over time, with age and experience I have come to realize you can only help those that want to help themselves. Because I have worked hard to have what I have in life it angers me to see people abuse the system (e.g., Nintendo guy). I did not come from a privileged background but was able to obtain an education and a good job. What is the saying...give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he can feed himself forever. I agree that we need to take care of our own but our own have to be willing to help themselves.
Posted By: corkygirl

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:28 PM

Quote:

I am on the Board of Directors of a Homeless Shelter in Florida, and from what I have seen, the great majority (not all mind you, but most) of the homeless are homeless by choice. They are either unable or unwilling to accept help and cannot, for obvious reasons, control their addictions. Even though there is help available they make the decision to remain homeless.



I believe that a portion of the homeless suffer from some sort of mental illness, many of them self medicating with alcohol and drugs. Neither of those conditions are free choice on the part of the individual. Unless you or one of your family members lives with mental illness and/or addiction, it is impossible to understand. We are fortunate, our son who is bipolar and a recovering alcoholic has reached out for help and is working hard but there are times when life is almost too hard for him. Our aid needs to be spent at home in the USA and overseas.
Posted By: Creditcop

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:33 PM

I saw on this morning's news that the U.S. has pledged $35 million so far and I am sure that it will be more.

Do you know how much France has pledged as of this morning?

$136,000 that is not a typo. $35 million vs $136,000 and U.N. calls us stingy?
Posted By: bluebanker

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:34 PM

Do you know why the French plant trees?
Posted By: Creditcop

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:35 PM

Why?
Posted By: kfh

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:37 PM

I heard a bit of that story on the news this morning. The local anchor finished up the story by commenting that protestors are asking the US to come up with more than the pledged 35 million and that the US had pledged 11 billion so far to rebuild in Florida after this year's hurricanes. Well HELLO! Florida is part of our country - they pay taxes and deserve more money from the US Federal Government than a foreign country would.
Posted By: bluebanker

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:38 PM

So that the Germans can march in the shade
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:49 PM

***Tasteless French Joke Alert***

Once there were two blind anamals in the forest, a bunny and a snake. They didn't know what kind of anamals they were because they could not see themselves so one day they made a deal, they would rub up against eachother and tell each other what they were. so the snake slithered all over the bunny and when he was finished said,"well you have two big ears, a fluffy tail, and are covered in fur so you must be a bunny." So the bunny rubbed the snake in return and said, "well you're slimy, you have no back bone or balls, so you mush be french."
Posted By: Bankster

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:51 PM

I've always thought it odd that people say we don't help our own. Don't we already? The government spends hundreds of millions (maybe billions - I don't know the specifics) of dollars every year on social security, welfare, medicare and any number of prgrams that help Americans avoid poverty and suffering, and improve their quality of life . How can anyone say we don't help our own. If you feel that not enough is being done by the government, then sell that convertible or cancel that cruise and donate the money where you feel it is needed most. Or go volunteer your time to help your cause. As a wealthy country, the US has an obligation to help those nations less fortunate. I'd much rather see the government stop funding things like museums for ex-Presidents, then helping poor nations.
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I am on the Board of Directors of a Homeless Shelter in Florida, and from what I have seen, the great majority (not all mind you, but most) of the homeless are homeless by choice. They are either unable or unwilling to accept help and cannot, for obvious reasons, control their addictions. Even though there is help available they make the decision to remain homeless.



I believe that a portion of the homeless suffer from some sort of mental illness, many of them self medicating with alcohol and drugs. Neither of those conditions are free choice on the part of the individual. Unless you or one of your family members lives with mental illness and/or addiction, it is impossible to understand. We are fortunate, our son who is bipolar and a recovering alcoholic has reached out for help and is working hard but there are times when life is almost too hard for him. Our aid needs to be spent at home in the USA and overseas.

Addiction is not one's fault but recovery is one's responsibility. And yes, I speak from experience.
Posted By: bluebanker

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:52 PM

Alright, alright, I know that it's fun to make fun of the French, but seriously...

You can always count on the French to be there when they need us!
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:57 PM

How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:57 PM

how many??
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 05:59 PM

Quote:

***Tasteless French Joke Alert***

Once there were two blind anamals in the forest, a bunny and a snake. They didn't know what kind of anamals they were because they could not see themselves so one day they made a deal, they would rub up against eachother and tell each other what they were. so the snake slithered all over the bunny and when he was finished said,"well you have two big ears, a fluffy tail, and are covered in fur so you must be a bunny." So the bunny rubbed the snake in return and said, "well you're slimy, you have no back bone or balls, so you mush be french."


oops, that was me, forgot to login. Is it friday yet??
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 06:02 PM

Quote:

how many??



It hasn't been tried for so long that no one knows.
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 06:04 PM

I heard that joke before, but the answer was
"1 backed by an American army"
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 06:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I am on the Board of Directors of a Homeless Shelter in Florida, and from what I have seen, the great majority (not all mind you, but most) of the homeless are homeless by choice. They are either unable or unwilling to accept help and cannot, for obvious reasons, control their addictions. Even though there is help available they make the decision to remain homeless.



I believe that a portion of the homeless suffer from some sort of mental illness, many of them self medicating with alcohol and drugs. Neither of those conditions are free choice on the part of the individual. Unless you or one of your family members lives with mental illness and/or addiction, it is impossible to understand. We are fortunate, our son who is bipolar and a recovering alcoholic has reached out for help and is working hard but there are times when life is almost too hard for him. Our aid needs to be spent at home in the USA and overseas.

Addiction is not one's fault but recovery is one's responsibility. And yes, I speak from experience.


So are mental diseases. Learning to live with them, getting and USING the proper medications, getting counseling, etc. are YOUR responsibility. I speak from experience.

As they say, you can lead a horse to the unemployment office, but you can't make them get out of bed in the morning.... Oh wait, that's not quite right..
Posted By: waldensouth

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 06:24 PM

I watched a re-run of President Bush's remarks about the disaster while I was home for lunch. He was asked about Mr. Jan (pronounced "YAWN")Egeland's remarks and stated that he thought the speaker was misinformed - he said that we contributed 40% of ALL the disaster relief worldwide in 2004. 40% - the UN needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Mr. Egeland heads the disaster relief program for the UN. I would personally like to see a list of what each country has contributed to both this disaster and to all disasters during 2004. I think it would speak volumes.
Posted By: bluebanker

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 06:55 PM

Here's some good ones...

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me."
--- General George S. Patton

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
--Norman Schwartzkopf

"We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it."
---- Marge Simpson

"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure"
---Jacques Chirac, President of France
"As far as France is concerned, you're right."
---Rush Limbaugh

"The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee"
--- Regis Philbin

There was a Frenchman, an Englishman and beautiful young woman sitting together in a carriage in a train going through a French Provence. Suddenly the train went through a tunnel and, as it was an old style train, there were no lights in the carriages and it went completely dark. Suddenly there was a kissing noise and the sound of a really loud slap. When the train came out of the tunnel the woman and the Englisman were sitting as if nothing had happened and the Frenchman had his hand against his face where he had been slapped. The Frenchman was thinking: 'The English fella must have kissed her and she missed him and slapped me instead.' The woman was thinking: 'The French fella must have tried to kiss me and actually kissed the Englishman and got slapped for it.' And the Englishman was thinking: 'This is great. The next time the train goes through a tunnel I'll make another kissing noise and slap that French bastard again.'

Next time there's a war in Europe, the loser has to keep France.

An old saying:
Raise your right hand if you like the French....
Raise both hands if you are French.

"You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein? Because he hates America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret. He is French, people."
--Conan O'Brien

"I don't know why people are surprised that France won't help us get Saddam out of Iraq. After all, France wouldn't help us get the Germans out of France!"
---Jay Leno

"The last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into Paris under a German flag."
--David Letterman

REPLACEMENTS FOR THE
FRENCH NATIONAL ANTHEM:
"Runaway" by Del Shannon,
"Walk Right In" by the Rooftop Singers,
"Everybody's Somebody's Fool” by Connie Francis,
"Running Scared" by Roy Orbison,
"I Really Don't Want to Know" by Tommy Edwards,
"Surrender" by Elvis Presley,
"Save It For Me" by The Four Seasons,
"Live and Let Die" by Wings,
"I'm Leaving It All Up To You" by Donny and Marie Osmond,
"What a Fool Believes" by the Doobie Brothers,
"Don't Worry, Be Happy" by Bobby McFerrin
"Raise Your Hands" by Jon Bon Jovi

How many Frenchmen does it take to change a light bulb?
One. He holds the bulb and all of Europe revolves around him.

It's essential they join us in the war against Iraq. They can teach the Iraqis how to surrender.
Posted By: HRH Dawnie

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 07:02 PM

I guess my frustration with this is that we provide more aide than any other country. I know there is need, and we should help, but there is also need here.

I get the feeling from the posts here that ya’ll think the poor are just lazy or ignorant and could be wealthy if they’d get out of bed. While I can agree that there are many who take advantage of the system, there are also those who are just plain poor with no options.

The line “What is the saying...give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he can feed himself forever” What if we wipe out his fish run with pollutants? We can teach all day, but if we kill his fish, what option does he have now?

How about if we tear down his home because we feel we can do better? We see that all over Alaska. In the 70’s HUD in their infinite wisdom decided that they could provide better homes in rural Alaska then were there. They tore down the homes and built what we call “HUD Homes”. We can easily identify them by the poor construction, small size, and gaps in the walls and ceilings. They also have no arctic entries and are sat on the ground instead of posts. The costs to heat them are astronomical, and they’re falling down daily but they are the only options because we tore down the good homes. This is one of the reason’s poverty still exists, because we are stupid about how we spend our money. What if instead we’d researched building homes in the arctic and built them properly?

Yes we should help others. I will agree with that, but do we have to provide 40% of the funds? We might be a rich nation, but we have needs here at home. Where are the other nations? And why do we need to fill in for them? Germany, England, Spain, etc.

I work to help many poor who do not choose to live in poverty, but circumstances have forced them into it. I work with the working poor who struggle daily to eak out a living on nothing. I also work with poor who have no options for employment in their location, and are not educated enough to work elsewhere. It’s not all by choice. Nor is it laziness. We have real poverty here, with third world conditions that are killing American children. It’s not all roses out there despite what you might think.
Posted By: Viking Princess

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 07:06 PM

Dawnie I completely understand and respect your point of view. My only issue with this is I see on a daily basis people in America who could help themselves if they choose to. They could go door to door and ask if they can rake leaves for $5.00 - that might be meaningless but it doesn't take education to rake leaves and it would provide some sort of hot meal for them. I see so many people sitting on the side of the road asking for assistance. Go get a job! For those that are truly, truly in need, I agree that they should receive whatever aid can be afforded to them. I just see so many other third world countries out there where there is no way to earn money. It's sad all around - I wish there was an easy solution, but it seems there is not.
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 07:15 PM

Dawnie, Question for you as I am just curious:
Were you born in Alaska? How did you decide to live there if not? I was always just curious how one ends up in Alaska. I live in FL because I hate the cold and deary weather in Pittsburgh.
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 07:37 PM

I agree Dawnie, I live in New Mexico (one of the poorest states in America)and I see whole families living in one room adobe houses every day. I drive throught the town of Espanola on my way to work and if you have never heard of this town before, the death rate is ten times the national adverage for heroin overdoses every year. The reason for this is simple, the cost of drugs on the street such as crack and herion is cheaper than the cost of food. I have lost many friends to drugs and have also watched some of my friends get away from the streets and make something of themselves. It is not an easy thing to do though, I am lucky imo, I have been blessed to never have to go through some of the things that these people go through. In Espanola there are only two shelters one for the men and one for the women. I have worked at both shelters and can tell you that the womens shelter has enough room to home about 10 people, and the mens shelter has enough room for maybe 50 people. meanwhile 75% of Espanola is poverty stricken that is about 4000 people who work there tails off just trying to get by. People say why don't they get better jobs, but where? I have to travle 120 miles a day so that I can work at a good job. Aside from walmart and chain resturants there is nowhere that will hire you unless you are related to the owner. I agree that there are some lazy people in the world, but come to Espanola and tell a mother of 4 who works three minimum wage jobs that she is lazy because she gets food stamps, and that will be the last thing that you ever say.
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 07:40 PM

Quote:

....the death rate is ten times the national adverage for heroin overdoses every year. The reason for this is simple, the cost of drugs on the street such as crack and herion is cheaper than the cost of food. I have lost many friends to drugs and have also watched some of my friends get away from the streets and make something of themselves.....



No question that most of us on here have been blessed well beyond what we deserve. But, the price of heroin vs. food has nothing to do with becoming addicted. That someone chooses a drug to escape instead of doing what is better for themselves and their families is a matter of exactly that, a choice. No, I don't want to offend you, but that is my opinion.
Posted By: HRH Dawnie

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 07:42 PM

Quote:

Were you born in Alaska?

Gad no It's funny, I don't know many people who were born in Alaska. Aside from Alaskan natives that is. We're a very transient state. Average stay here is just five years. I'm working on six, so I guess I'm due to move on soon

Quote:

How did you decide to live there if not? I was always just curious how one ends up in Alaska.

I was romanced by the bank I worked for with promises of doubled salary, a large promotion and "just" two years committment. Took the bank almost six months to convince me but eventually I fell for their line Six months later they sold their Alaskan assets to a tiny bank here. Hugh McCall (may he rest in peace...and yes I know he's still alive) was not terribly good to us after the merger because there were so few officers here that would have wanted to move elsewhere.

I considered going "home" to Washington state, but I had fallen for the goofy state and couldn't leave. Then I found this oddball job where I was of some value and life has been great ever since.

And I hate hot and muggy so Florida won't be my next stop. I hear Texas averages about 65 degrees with no humidity It's a consideration heh heh
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 07:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

....the death rate is ten times the national adverage for heroin overdoses every year. The reason for this is simple, the cost of drugs on the street such as crack and herion is cheaper than the cost of food. I have lost many friends to drugs and have also watched some of my friends get away from the streets and make something of themselves.....



No question that most of us on here have been blessed well beyond what we deserve. But, the price of heroin vs. food has nothing to do with becoming addicted. That someone chooses a drug to escape instead of doing what is better for themselves and their families is a matter of exactly that, a choice. No, I don't want to offend you, but that is my opinion.


No the price of herion vs the price of food has everything to do with becoming addicted. the reason people in espanola do crack and herion is to relax so they don't feel the pain in their belly from not eating in three days. Think about it have you ever heard of a fat crack head? no because these drugs take away the feeling of hunger. they do the drug so that they don't have to eat because they can't afford food.
Posted By: MB Guy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:00 PM

Sorry Buddy, I'm not buying that argument. God forgive me, please, if I am wrong, but I don't buy it.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

....the death rate is ten times the national adverage for heroin overdoses every year. The reason for this is simple, the cost of drugs on the street such as crack and herion is cheaper than the cost of food. I have lost many friends to drugs and have also watched some of my friends get away from the streets and make something of themselves.....



No question that most of us on here have been blessed well beyond what we deserve. But, the price of heroin vs. food has nothing to do with becoming addicted. That someone chooses a drug to escape instead of doing what is better for themselves and their families is a matter of exactly that, a choice. No, I don't want to offend you, but that is my opinion.


No the price of herion vs the price of food has everything to do with becoming addicted. the reason people in espanola do crack and herion is to relax so they don't feel the pain in their belly from not eating in three days. Think about it have you ever heard of a fat crack head? no because these drugs take away the feeling of hunger. they do the drug so that they don't have to eat because they can't afford food.



Somehow I doubt crack and other drugs are cheaper than 5 meals for a dollar ramen noodles, 3 meals for a dollar mac and cheese, etc. This is a complete line of BULL. I've had no money. I bought cheap food and *gasp* went to the FREE STORE FOOD BANK to get food when I had to. I went to churches to get food when I had to.

Your argument is based on someone convincing you that they have no choice. An addict nearly ALWAYS says he couldn't help it. Here's some news for you.... EVERYONE HAS CHOICES.
Posted By: RR Sarah

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:08 PM

I was going to just fade out of this debate but then I figured a healthy debate is a good thing! So here I go...Dawnie, you swayed me a bit from wholeheartedly believing in the "give a man a fish" theory. The more I thought about it the more I convinced myself that I am not wrong. I also convinced myself that you are not wrong either. So if we take away his fish supply we teach him how to raise livestock, grow a garden, hunt, etc. I'm not advocating hanging people out to dry or that all poor people are lazy because that simply is not the case. It is so easy for us in the US to treat people like victims and if we treat you like a victim, you act like a victim. I am willing to help those that truly need it and if that means getting on my hands and knees to teach you how to plant tomatoes and when they are ripe, can them, I will do it. The single mother that works three jobs to support her family is to be admired and I don't have a problem at all with her receiving assistance. I know plenty of people in my area that don't hunt for pleasure but because they need the meat, or plant a huge garden and can the harvest to help feed themselves. So maybe the issue here is how we take care of our own (weeding out those that abuse the system so we can help those that are truly in need). Just my opinion, I am not a cold-hearted beast, really...

Buddy, just wondering why the cost of food in Espanola is so high? I know nothing about the area so am asking an honest question.
Posted By: bluebanker

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:10 PM

I think this is starting to go back to the argument that nothing is ever anyone's fault. No one wants to take responsibility for ANYTHING these days, and it sickens me. It's always someone else's fault. This doesn't go against just poverty. This stretches across numerous areas (i.e. obesity). Granted, there are some things people can control, but 99.9% of the time, it was a choice someone made along the line.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:19 PM

Great Blue: you had stated that noone here really has to go hungry because of all the charitable organizations and such, which is true to some degree. The US does have a lot of organizations and programs to help the "needy", but at the same time, it can be very difficult to qualify for needed assistance. For example, in MN the cut-off for the amount of money a family of 4 can make to qualify for section 8 (housing assistance) is so low, but regualar housing is so expensive that it can be hard for someone who makes 30,000/year to afford rent. Same goes for Public Assistance. You either have to make close to nothing or a whole lot to make it.
I have a friend (this annoys me) who will switch jobs when she doesn't meet the requirement to keep her Section 8 Housing, she knows that even with a raise in pay, she could not afford her rent.
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

....the death rate is ten times the national adverage for heroin overdoses every year. The reason for this is simple, the cost of drugs on the street such as crack and herion is cheaper than the cost of food. I have lost many friends to drugs and have also watched some of my friends get away from the streets and make something of themselves.....



No question that most of us on here have been blessed well beyond what we deserve. But, the price of heroin vs. food has nothing to do with becoming addicted. That someone chooses a drug to escape instead of doing what is better for themselves and their families is a matter of exactly that, a choice. No, I don't want to offend you, but that is my opinion.


No the price of herion vs the price of food has everything to do with becoming addicted. the reason people in espanola do crack and herion is to relax so they don't feel the pain in their belly from not eating in three days. Think about it have you ever heard of a fat crack head? no because these drugs take away the feeling of hunger. they do the drug so that they don't have to eat because they can't afford food.

sorry, if you can afford a $20 dollar rock you can afford some ramen noodles.
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:23 PM

to answer a couple questions in one post MP, what good is ramon noodles if you dont have electricity to cook them with. and sarah, its not that the cost of food is higher in espanola, its the price of drugs is lower. a person can spend 20 bucks on herion and not have to eat for a week, or they can spend that twenty bucks on ramon noodles and not have anywhere to cook them. and yes I suppose that they could go to a neighbors house and that is a choice that they make, so yes it is their fault to a point, but it is not their fault that the cost of living is so high or that the biggest indestry within 10 miles of the city of espanola is Wal-Mart. And just to give you an idea on how hard it is to get a job in Espanola, in the past seven years I have worked for my cousins trucking company, my grandmothers sign shop, my aunts water store, my good friends constructin company, and Walmart. other than that I have had to commute over 80 miles every day. and other than walmart, I lost every job I had because they couldn't afford to pay me.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:27 PM

Quote:

I guess my frustration with this is that we provide more aide than any other country. . .Yes we should help others. I will agree with that, but do we have to provide 40% of the funds? We might be a rich nation, but we have needs here at home. Where are the other nations? And why do we need to fill in for them? Germany, England, Spain, etc.



Dawnie, I hope that when you give to the poor, or when you volunteer your time, that you are as careful to not give more than your fair share. The average American gives about 2% of their salary to charity - be careful you don't exceed that. I don't know the average number of hours per year that Americans do volunteer work, but you should find that out and be sure you don't exceed it, either.
Posted By: Viking Princess

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:33 PM

Perhaps they don't have electricity - alot of countries don't have the luxery of electricity. Therefore they "create" other means of cooking.
Posted By: GreatBlue

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:36 PM

Quote:

Great Blue: you had stated that noone here really has to go hungry because of all the charitable organizations and such, which is true to some degree. The US does have a lot of organizations and programs to help the "needy", but at the same time, it can be very difficult to qualify for needed assistance. For example, in MN the cut-off for the amount of money a family of 4 can make to qualify for section 8 (housing assistance) is so low, but regualar housing is so expensive that it can be hard for someone who makes 30,000/year to afford rent. Same goes for Public Assistance. You either have to make close to nothing or a whole lot to make it.
I have a friend (this annoys me) who will switch jobs when she doesn't meet the requirement to keep her Section 8 Housing, she knows that even with a raise in pay, she could not afford her rent.



Oh, I agree, there's lots wrong with public assistance and the incentives it provides, but my point was that for the most part, no one has to go hungry in this country. There are always options, and government assistance is only one of them.
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:37 PM

so would that be start a fire inside your house that lacks a fireplace or start one outside and have the cops come put it out.
Posted By: GreatBlue

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:39 PM

Quote:

I guess my frustration with this is that we provide more aide than any other country.
... do we have to provide 40% of the funds?



As a percentage of GDP, our contribution is significantly less than some other countries. I'm not saying it should be any other way, but it seems obvious to me that we give the most, because we have the most.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:47 PM

Buddy, I found a news piece written about Espanola (www.counterpunch.org/green11062004.html). Lots more to the issue then we are led to believe. Drug users in Espanola are a lot like welfare recipients. It is a cross-generational issue that needs to be solved.
Posted By: RR Sarah

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:49 PM

Sorry, the anon post about Espanola is from me!
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:52 PM

Yes and that is true to a point, but I know them personaly and some of them feel they have no other choice. that is why I am a big fan of the war on drugs. in espanola you can walk up to a perfect stranger and ask for $20 of your drug of choice and nine out of ten times they will give it to you without thinking twice. I think that if we got some of those drugs of the streets maybe things could change.
Posted By: Viking Princess

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:52 PM

Huddy I am referring to eletricity in third world countries not America where in some placed it's illegal to have fires outside..I have friends in Papua New Guinea who have fire pits and cook their meals this way because they have no eletricity.
Posted By: Viking Princess

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:53 PM

oops sorry - I meant buddy....sorry for the typo...
Posted By: RR Sarah

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 08:58 PM

This is kind of the point I was making earlier about treating people like victims. I agree with you about getting the drugs off the streets and I would wholeheartedly advocate assisting these people in changing their lives. It would be easier to just throw some food at them and call it good but the real answer is to work with them and teach them. That would be much more beneficial than just giving handouts. We have a tendency in this country to put band-aids on things instead of fixing them.
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:00 PM

that is a good point, but try digging a pit in a single wide trailer and it wouldn't work, and trying to dig a pit in an adobe house would be like trying to dig one in a brick wall. I'm not saying that they have no options, every person who has ever come to my house for help I help. It's all a matter of forgetting about their pride and asking.
Posted By: Viking Princess

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:03 PM

I agree buddy - a lot of people won't ask for help. On the other note I also agree with SarahH in regards to helping people improve their lives rather than just placing band-aides.
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:08 PM

just one little side note, I want to thank everyone in this debate because noone has called me a dimbulb or corrected any of my many spelling errors. It's good to know that we can have a debate and act like adults.
Posted By: GreatBlue

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:12 PM

I'm glad of that too!

BTW, it's "no one" not "noone".
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:12 PM

I was waiting for that...
Posted By: HRH Dawnie

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:14 PM

Quote:

So if we take away his fish supply we teach him how to raise livestock, grow a garden, hunt, etc.

OK Sarah, but what if they're already doing all of this? Arctic villagers live a subsistance lifestyle. They hunt, gather berries, fish, etc. They can not plant gardens because crops do not grow in the arctic. Their diets, over the years, have substituted other things for crops to stay healthy. They use the little money they get for fishing to cover expenses like heat and food to supliment what they can not find on their own. They live hundreds of miles from anywhere. They can not drive to Walmart or Costco and find cheeper food. They can, freeze or dry everything they can. The oil in the fish is an important part of their diet as well, providing them the fat they need to substain themselves during the winter.

So we then allow commercial fishing to wipe out their fish. They have no money for heat, and no fish to feed their people. Better yet, HUD flys in and builds a medical clinic on their only berry patch. (It's happened). Now no fish, no berries....what do you do?

Quote:

The single mother that works three jobs to support her family is to be admired and I don't have a problem at all with her receiving assistance.

Neither do I. I think a work component is a good part of any welfare program but what if there is no work? Literally none. No one pays you to pick up trash on the side of the road because there is no road. All of the positions in the village are filled. No one needs to pay you $5 to mow their lawn because there is no lawn, and there is no extra fivers to go around.

It's not always as easy as teaching someone to plant tomatoes Most of the problems caused in these pockets of poverty come from someone who thinks this will be the solution and pulls out the berry bushes to plant tomatoes. The tomatoes die, and the thousand year old berry patch disapears.

Jokerman, I'm not going to dignify that with a remark beyond stating that there is a huge difference between individual volunteer contributions and a country. I volunteer 100% of my time and expertise to help in the US though, with a particular focus on Alaska, because I like to see my own back yard grow stronger.
Posted By: GreatBlue

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:15 PM

Quote:

I was waiting for that...


It was a good set up, I'll give you that!
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:19 PM

Posted By: Chiquita Banana

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:22 PM

Quote:

what good is ramon noodles if you dont have electricity to cook them with


Sorry. Not buying it. I remember back when I was a teenager and my mom worked two jobs just for what we have. There was a night when we had no electricity, no heat, etc (do I hear a violin in the background? ). I scrounged up what I could...Made a dinner of some peanut butter, saltine's, a wine cooler, and marshmallows for desert. Was it healthy? Nope. But a hell of a lot better than going across the street to the drug dealers who could have given me crack.

I am a liberal person and I do fight for the poor...but I am so very very tired of excuses. You can go to the Church pantry's for food. You can go to the shelters. There are choices that don't involve drugs.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I am on the Board of Directors of a Homeless Shelter in Florida, and from what I have seen, the great majority (not all mind you, but most) of the homeless are homeless by choice. They are either unable or unwilling to accept help and cannot, for obvious reasons, control their addictions. Even though there is help available they make the decision to remain homeless.



I believe that a portion of the homeless suffer from some sort of mental illness, many of them self medicating with alcohol and drugs. Neither of those conditions are free choice on the part of the individual. Unless you or one of your family members lives with mental illness and/or addiction, it is impossible to understand. We are fortunate, our son who is bipolar and a recovering alcoholic has reached out for help and is working hard but there are times when life is almost too hard for him. Our aid needs to be spent at home in the USA and overseas.

Addiction is not one's fault but recovery is one's responsibility. And yes, I speak from experience.



Yes, you are right. Some are not capable of taking that responsibility and I hurt for them. But for many, those capable of being honest with themselves, there is a way out, a way to get help. And yes, I speak from experience also.
Posted By: RR Sarah

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:33 PM

So there is no one willing to help these people become advocates for themselves? Sure, get them some food and assistance with the heat, etc. but if it's one thing Americans know how to do it is voice their opinion and take action! I am not without sympathy (or maybe the correct term is apathy) for the Native Alaskans because the lives they have led for hundreds of years is changing. But, in an industrialized society, it is not possible to survive with a subsistence lifestyle. I'm not saying what is happening to them is a positive thing but when life throughs you grapes, you make wine! I'm not trying to make light of their situation because it does truly break my heart to seen a culture die...and that is what is happening. But, good or bad this has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years. Adaptation, survival of the fittest, call it whatever you wish. We are human beings, however, with the ability to feel compassion so we will not let these people just die off. What I guess I am saying (did someone say making a short story long) is that we need to help them adapt instead of making them feel like victims. We need to provide them with the means (I don't necessarily mean money) to HELP THEMSELVES. Sorry, didn't mean to shout. Dawnie, I completely understand where you are coming from on this and I respect your opinion. I hope you can say the same for me?
Posted By: corkygirl

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:34 PM

Sorry, last anon was from me, forgot to sign in.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:38 PM

Quote:

to answer a couple questions in one post MP, what good is ramon noodles if you dont have electricity to cook them with.



You know, you don't have to cook those noodles. They are edible without cooking them. For that matter, *gasp* how on earth did we cook ANYTHING before Thomas Edison and the microwave?

Go to a church. Ask to use their electricity. I guarantee you they will not only heat up your noodles for you, but give you a blanket, some canned food, and invite you to eat more than you brought.

The only excuse is pride and ignorance, neither of which should be given aid!
Posted By: Clown Boy

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 09:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

what good is ramon noodles if you dont have electricity to cook them with


Sorry. Not buying it. I remember back when I was a teenager and my mom worked two jobs just for what we have. There was a night when we had no electricity, no heat, etc (do I hear a violin in the background? ). I scrounged up what I could...Made a dinner of some peanut butter, saltine's, a wine cooler, and marshmallows for desert. Was it healthy? Nope. But a hell of a lot better than going across the street to the drug dealers who could have given me crack.

I am a liberal person and I do fight for the poor...but I am so very very tired of excuses. You can go to the Church pantry's for food. You can go to the shelters. There are choices that don't involve drugs.


I am not trying to make excuses for them, I'm just trying to show you what it is like from their pov. It is so easy for them to slip into that wide and crooked path but very hard to get out. put yourself in their situation. You just lost your job and got evicted from your house. You try to find another job but no one will hire you, so you go apply at walmart but they turn you down because you dont have a permanant address. so you go to a shelter, but they turn you away because they are full. so you go to a friends house but eventually they kick you out because you aren't helping with the bills. you are still looking for a job but by now haven't showered in days so just your looks alone make it impossible to find work of any kind. you go to the church and they give you a sack of potatos because thats all they can afford to give anyone. your potatos run out and the church says that they can only give you a sack every other week. By now your living under a bridge because no one really wants to help you. a man walks up to you and tells you that if you buy drugs from him you wont be hungry anymore and you will have more energy to look for a new job. Of course you say no. but then he offers you clothing and a shower at his house. You know it is wrong so you still say no, so he brings you some food. for the first time in days you eat something you didn't dig out of the trash, but you are still very weak so he offers you alittle bit of crack for free. he even says he'll smoke it with you to show you that it isn't that bad. How long can you keep saying no??"
Thats how the dealers work they do whatever they can to get you hooked, then they even get you a low-paying high-labor job so you can have money to buy more drugs. It is a horrible cycle that needs to be broken.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 10:00 PM

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I am not trying to make excuses for them,



Yes, you are. That's exactly what you are doing.

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I'm just trying to show you what it is like from their pov. It is so easy for them to slip into that wide and crooked path but very hard to get out. put yourself in their situation. You just lost your job and got evicted from your house. You try to find another job but no one will hire you.



Better yet, someone just put a gun to your head, took your keys, took your sense of security and you couldn't go back to your home. Been there, done that. No job, no income, savings gone in less than 6 months. But DRUGS didn't solve the problem, in fact they would have simply made it happen FASTER.
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you go to a friend's house but eventually they kick you out because you aren't helping with the bills.

You picked the wrong friends. Real friends would not only not kick you out, they would feed you. Been there, done that.

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you are still looking for a job but by now haven't showered in days so just your looks alone make it impossible to find work of any kind. you go to the church and they give you a sack of potatos because thats all they can afford to give anyone.

And a sack of potatos can feed you for well over two weeks. Mix in some bulk carrots, and an onion and you have a nice stew that can be cooked in a pot over a fire and last for a long time. And if you can afford to buy a single crack rock, you can afford to buy an onion and a bunch of carrots. You can probably even afford a very large head of cabbage!

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It is a horrible cycle that needs to be broken.

The only horrible thing that needs to be broken is ignorance and pride. There is always a way out, and with all the news and knowledge about drugs, noone in the entire US shouldn't know that crack is addictive and isn't food.

Quit making excuses and MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Donate to a church. Open your home to someone who needs a place to live. Don't just say "the government needs to do it for them".
Posted By: Chiquita Banana

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 10:03 PM

Don't think that I don't understand...because I do. I'm not that unsympathetic. I've lived a life that hasn't been easy. I have two parents that are both bi-polar with one of them a drug addict. I've been down that road. But I've never played the victim either. That's why I don't understand the 'I have nothing else to lose so I started with drugs'.
The whole topic started with 'We need to help our own'. We have more choices in this country than the undeveloped ones. This why it is important to me to help those that CAN'T help themselves.
Posted By: HRH Dawnie

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 10:52 PM

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So there is no one willing to help these people become advocates for themselves?



Have no fear, these folks are advocates for themselves. They are a strong, proud people, who we have wronged over time. They welcomed us with trust and we gave them measles, tore down their homes and took their best lands. Some of this is ancient history, some is recent. It’s the recent that needs reparations.

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Sure, get them some food and assistance with the heat, etc.



That would be welfare. What we should be doing is teaching them to run power plants and sustainable power. Instead we waste money on a fuel subsidy when what they need is more efficient power. An operating plant and trained workers would provide long term jobs in the community and relief from the high cost of fuel.

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But, in an industrialized society, it is not possible to survive with a subsistence lifestyle.



Actually, yes it is, as long as we don’t over fish their fisheries and build buildings on their berry patch. If we feel that is acceptable we need to provide a different berry patch and a replacement for what the fish do for them.

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I'm not saying what is happening to them is a positive thing but when life throughs you grapes, you make wine!



Ahhh don’t you love the relevance of a catchy phrase like this? Honestly, it does make light of their situation in a big way.

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I'm not trying to make light of their situation because it does truly break my heart to seen a culture die...and that is what is happening. But, good or bad this has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years.



No it’s not. Their culture and traditions are fine as long as we stay out of them. But we had to bring them our god because worshiping the sun was wrong in our eyes, we had to take their home because we had a better idea, we took their children from them and forced them to attend our schools. We’ve done wrong time and time again to people who can survive if we quit screwing with them.

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Adaptation, survival of the fittest, call it whatever you wish.



Right back to the thread topic…if we believe in survival of the fittest, why are we helping these folks? Why not just let those who are the most fit make it and quit worrying about the rest? I’m not for that by any means, but it is what the phrase implies.

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We are human beings, however, with the ability to feel compassion so we will not let these people just die off. What I guess I am saying (did someone say making a short story long) is that we need to help them adapt instead of making them feel like victims. We need to provide them with the means (I don't necessarily mean money) to HELP THEMSELVES.



You aren’t understanding that this is what they want, but we keep interfering. We screw it up time and time again, then put a band aide on things, and say “so long sucker”. The Native American Housing and Self Determination Act is a great example. We provided the means, then we (congress) started screwing with it. Now they can build one house, but not put in a toilet or a sink. And we can only do this at Davis Bacon wages, with work provided by outside sources. How about providing NAHSADA with the ability to train the people in need? How about allowing homes to be built that survive on arctic soil? Neh that would be too easy.

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Sorry, didn't mean to shout. Dawnie, I completely understand where you are coming from on this and I respect your opinion. I hope you can say the same for me?



I don’t expect you to understand the complexity of the situation and I have no issue with the fact that it is hard to comprehend. Most people don’t get it until they spend time in the arctic and see what we’ve done over time. Band aides and catchy phrases won’t help the issue though. I of course respect your opinion, even if I don’t agree with it. I am just saying that we could throw some value here instead of bombs in Iraq or even just a small portion of what we give away over seas, WITHOUT the darned ties we put on things.
Posted By: RR Sarah

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/29/04 11:15 PM

Well, then I guess if the people are strong enough and proud enough to stand up for themselves then we should just stay out of it. Believe it or not, I think we are on the same side of this issue but just coming at it from different directions. And, for the record, I do comprehend the complexities of what is happening in the artic. I grew up in Northern Minnesota...I have been to a reservation...I earned a Bachelor of Arts in Social Studies with a minor in History (most of that an emphasis in Native American studies). If there is one thing in this world that I know, it is the complexity of the situation.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/30/04 01:40 PM

Can I ask what we are doing to educate the youth of America that they can help out in assisting the less fortunate. Also, to those of us who have children, are we teaching them the true meaning of what it is to work hard and make a living?

When I was a kid, way way back, I started my first job at age 12. Now a days, I look around and none of the youth in my area work hard or even know what it's like. We push education and the need for it but we fail to teach the meaning of hard work.

All the homeless and people in poverty had parents and if they taught them the meaning of hard work, they would do whatever to make some money even if it meant doing something not so popular like raking leaves, shoveling snow, delivering newspapers, etc. As a parent of 3 kids (ages 5, 7, 9) I am teaching them that nothing is below them, right from wrong and a hard days work for some pay is better then no work or money.

Just another angle on this whole topic.
Posted By: Retired DQ

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/30/04 01:54 PM

So, what about the children who are born of these people? Don't they deserve to be cared for properly? They didn't ask to be born in that environment, or for that matter, born at all.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/30/04 04:16 PM

We should always provide assistance to our US children.
Posted By: Truffle Royale

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/31/04 12:25 AM

DD, of course the children deserve to be cared for properly. I think the anon's point was that part of the caring should be education and job training to break the cycle of the environment they were born into.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/31/04 02:11 PM

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DD, of course the children deserve to be cared for properly. I think the anon's point was that part of the caring should be education and job training to break the cycle of the environment they were born into.



Couldn't have said it any better. Thanks
Posted By: Fork Ate Spoon

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/31/04 02:29 PM

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I saw on this morning's news that the U.S. has pledged $35 million so far and I am sure that it will be more.

Do you know how much France has pledged as of this morning?

$136,000 that is not a typo. $35 million vs $136,000 and U.N. calls us stingy?



Is there an article that states that the Franch donated that amount. They're up to like $30+ million now. I was telling some others about the $136k but didn't have anything to back it up.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Taking Care of Our Own ******** Rant ******** - 12/31/04 02:40 PM

Yeah, I haven't seen anything about the $136,000.00 either. But I have read articles supporting their donations upwards of $30 million.