My How Times Have Changed
Posted By: Fraudman CFCI
My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 12:34 AM
During WWII, the Germans landed eight sabateurs by submarine including their supplies to bomb strategic targets. Two were captured immediately and gave up their co-conspirators.
They went to trial in a military court to preserve the secrecy and six were executed in 1948, three years after the war ended. The other two were repatriated to Germany.
We are again in a war, albeit a different one, with terrorists. They are again landing "combatants" on oour shores to destroy their 21st century version of strategic targets.
Yet, there are those who oppose trying them in military courts, want to provide Miranda rights and all the protections of our judicial system afforded U.S. citizens who violate our criminal laws.
Those identified and taken into custody are here on a mission of destruction and mayhem with the intention to kill as many people, citizens or not, as possible.
It is time for the people of this couontry to wake up and understand that this "war" we are engaged in is like no other in our history.
Extremists of any ilk determined to undermine our way of life have no place in our open society. We must defend ourselves against those who are culturally and ideologically opposed to Western culture and who believe we are "infidels" that should be killed.
I am certain there are those in the Muslim world that wish to co-exist peacefully in the modern world while retaining their religious beliefs. My wish is that they would rise up and publicy condemn those who undermine their wishes rather than sitting silently and watching the carnage taking place in the world today.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 12:52 AM
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Those identified and taken into custody are here on a mission of destruction
The prisoners at Guantanamo were not "here", they were taken into custody in the Middle East, unlike the WWII cases that you attempt to compare. These are not spies or saboteurs in our country.
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Yet, there are those who oppose trying them in military courts, want to provide Miranda rights and all the protections of our judicial system afforded U.S. citizens who violate our criminal laws.
Wrong. They can certainly be tried in military courts (as the Supreme Court ruled) and no one has said that they get Miranda rights, only the rights that we agreed that we would give prisoners when we signed the Geneva Convention.
Posted By: Fraudman CFCI
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 01:04 AM
Unreg, these prisoners are outside of the Geneva Conventions as they are not defined as "soldiers" or "military combatants". They are civilian terrorists. They do not have the rights of prisoners of war as outlined in the Convention as they do not represent the legal military force of any legitimate government. Many are not even citizens of the country they supposedly are fighting for and could be classsified as mercenaries.
Sorry, I do not buy this theory!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 01:39 AM
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They do not have the rights of prisoners of war as outlined in the Convention as they do not represent the legal military force of any legitimate government.
Actually, they have rights under Common Article Three of the Geneva Convention. The Supreme Court ruled that they did, and the Supreme Court Justices are the ones that decide that issue, not you.
Disagree all you want, it won't change the law.
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 01:38 PM
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They do not have the rights of prisoners of war as outlined in the Convention as they do not represent the legal military force of any legitimate government.
Actually, they have rights under Common Article Three of the Geneva Convention. The Supreme Court ruled that they did, and the Supreme Court Justices are the ones that decide that issue, not you.
Disagree all you want, it won't change the law.
What I'm sure Fraudman meant to say was, they should not have rights under the Geneva Conventions, due to the reasons he cited. Additionally, I do not recall Al Qaeda having been a signatory to the Conventions.
The fact that anyone would defend that decision shows just how crazy the arguments have become in this country, and it is all very depressing to me.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 01:44 PM
If that is Fraudman's argument, he sure has an interesting way of introducing it. The article that he copied here says that we should try the terrorists in military courts.
Posted By: HappyGilmore
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:05 PM
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Unreg, these prisoners are outside of the Geneva Conventions as they are not defined as "soldiers" or "military combatants".
Maybe I'm just naive, but how can we be at war if we are not fighting "soldiers?" Who are we at war with? A people? A country? A religion? Or an ideal?
What is really funny is that someone went out of their way to define the "enemy," obviously from a legal standpoint...
A lot of this is technical argument -- arguing over the definition of a "soldier" vs. a "combatant" vs. a "terrorist" and whether certain rights apply. But let's step back and ask why we have things such as Miranda rights and the Geneva Conventions. They were to prevent abuses. A lot of the same people that are always flag waving in this country are the same that want to punish people without a trial. Certainly our justice system has gotten bogged down -- people we know are guilty get off every day on technicalities. I'm not saying we should give accused foreign terrorists the same rights as U.S. citizens, just that they should be accused with a specific crime, there should be some reasonable evidence presented that shows that they did it, and the whole process done within a reasonable period of time. What does holding prisoners for years in Guantanamo without accusing them accomplish. And if we condone torturing prisoners, does that not give our enemies justification to do the same. We shouldn't hamstring ourselves, but we still should set an example for the rest of the world. If Bush's mission is to spread democracy, shouldn't we be showing the world that democracy is a GOOD thing, and that we play by the same rules we want others to adopt?
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:16 PM
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If that is Fraudman's argument, he sure has an interesting way of introducing it. The article that he copied here says that we should try the terrorists in military courts.
If it is an article that has been copied, I would suppose that they have their terminology confused and are objecting to the Supreme Court's usurping of the President's wartime authority to establish tribunals in which to try these terrorists.
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Maybe I'm just naive, but how can we be at war if we are not fighting "soldiers?"
We are generally fighting combatants who do not observe civilized rules of war and who should not be granted the protections of the Geneva Conventions because they do not observe them.
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Who are we at war with? A people? A country? A religion? Or an ideal?
Though the current adminstration often stumbles when it tries to communicate this, my opinion is that we should be at war with the people who would attempt to spread a fascist interpretation of the Islamic faith through the use of force, including terror, and with the countries who provide support to those people.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:21 PM
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We are generally fighting combatants who do not observe civilized rules of war and who should not be granted the protections of the Geneva Conventions because they do not observe them.
aka we lose the moral high ground.
Posted By: MB Guy
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:21 PM
TICG, I would say that your ideas (ideals?) are great in theory, and what we should strive for, but it seems to me that reality precludes us from having the luxury of having trials for these "combatants" or whatever term you apply to them.
I agree that we should do something with those in Gitmo, but I don't know if lengthy and expensive trials are the answer.
War is He!!, so torturing (if you call what they in our Iraq prison - I wouldn't) may be required at times to save lives. Sad, but true in my mind. And finally, it seems to me that no matter what we did, these animals we are fighting against would torture and kill barbarically regardless of how we treat captured combatants.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:24 PM
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but it seems to me that reality precludes us from having the luxury of having trials for these "combatants" or whatever term you apply to them.
explain. why is this such an implausible idea?
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so torturing (if you call what they in our Iraq prison - I wouldn't) may be required at times to save lives.
if you torture a man enough, you can get him to say anything.
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it seems to me that no matter what we did, these animals we are fighting against would torture and kill barbarically regardless of how we treat captured combatants.
this is probably correct. we should lose the moral high ground and be dogs like them!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:26 PM
So then what do we do? Honestly, aren't we losing something if we start acting like the people we are "fighting" against? Where does it end? Is there a line we will cross and someday be no better than them?
I guess what frustrates me the most is why? Why do they hate us so? Why can't we just live our lives and they theirs? What did "we" do to get here? And how do we get out? It boggles my mind and makes me so sad and a little afraid of what the future will hold.
Do we really believe torture is effective. Sure it will get them to say anything -- even crap they make up. If you tortured me I'd turn in all kinds of people that didn't do anything just to get you to stop.
I think a lot of warped people in the military torture because they enjoy it.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:30 PM
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Do we really believe torture is effective. Sure it will get them to say anything -- even crap they make up. If you tortured me I'd turn in all kinds of people that didn't do anything just to get you to stop.
I think a lot of warped people in the military torture because they enjoy it.
the same motivation works for the death penalty, too: it's satisfying but it doesn't really accomplish what you think it will.
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:35 PM
(a) The reason not to torture is not because it doesn't work (it can - just ask the Pakistanis who interrogated one of the leaders of the recent British airline plot), and not because it gives our enemies the high ground (it doesn't - killing innocents is far worse than torturing the killers) or justification (they don't care), but because it debases ourselves. That said, there are probably a lot of things that I would consider well short of torture that the ACLU crowd would be up in arms about.
(b) I don't know anyone in this country who wants to abolish the American justice system, and I know a lot of people of fly who the American flag.
(c) You cannot ask the American military to gather what the US civilian or military courts would view as "reasonable evidence" that every prisoner they take during combat is committing a "specific crime" (this is a serious failure of the left, viewing this as a law enforcement problem, instead of a war). It is for this reason that military or civilian courts are not a plausible idea.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:37 PM
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That said, there are probably a lot of things that I would consider well short of torture that the ACLU crowd would be up in arms about.
not true, your neocon crowd should suggest such measures.
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:38 PM
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I think a lot of warped people in the military torture because they enjoy it.
I think a lot of warped Americans don't know whose side they ought to be on and make outrageous statements against those defending their rights to do so.
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:40 PM
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That said, there are probably a lot of things that I would consider well short of torture that the ACLU crowd would be up in arms about.
not true, your neocon crowd should suggest such measures.
Glad to see the ACLU has a spokeswoman on the thread.
Posted By: HappyGilmore
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:42 PM
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(c) You cannot ask the American military to gather what the US civilian or military courts would view as "reasonable evidence" that every prisoner they take during combat is committing a "specific crime" (this is a serious failure of the left, viewing this as a law enforcement problem, instead of a war). It is for this reason that military or civilian courts are not a plausible idea
so do we just hold them for an inderterminate amount of time?
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:42 PM
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(c) You cannot ask the American military to gather what the US civilian or military courts would view as "reasonable evidence" that every prisoner they take during combat is committing a "specific crime" (this is a serious failure of the left, viewing this as a law enforcement problem, instead of a war). It is for this reason that military or civilian courts are not a plausible idea
so do we just hold them for an inderterminate amount of time?
Would you prefer to house them?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:45 PM
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That said, there are probably a lot of things that I would consider well short of torture that the ACLU crowd would be up in arms about.
not true, your neocon crowd should suggest such measures.
Glad to see the ACLU has a spokeswoman/b] on the thread.
j took his toys and went home. and the sandbox was never the same...
Posted By: Bengals Fan
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:47 PM
Personally, I'm a conservative, but torture isn't the answer to anything.
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(c) You cannot ask the American military to gather what the US civilian or military courts would view as "reasonable evidence" that every prisoner they take during combat is committing a "specific crime" (this is a serious failure of the left, viewing this as a law enforcement problem, instead of a war). It is for this reason that military or civilian courts are not a plausible idea
so do we just hold them for an inderterminate amount of time?
Would you prefer to house them?
I would prefer we either accuse them and punish them or let them go. To hold them unaccused indefinitely makes them look an awful lot like political prisoners.
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:53 PM
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j took his toys and went home. and the sandbox was never the same...
???
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:56 PM
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I would prefer we either accuse them and punish them or let them go.
They stand accused of being illegal combatants. Even in past wars, when the enemy has been deserving of prisoner-of-war status, we've never released the prisoners prior to the end of hostilities. Meanwhile, in June, the Supreme Court threw up a huge roadblock to any sort of judicial resolution.
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To hold them unaccused indefinitely makes them look an awful lot like political prisoners.
Oh, please. The US Army likes to torture people...The US is holding political prisoners...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:59 PM
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j took his toys and went home. and the sandbox was never the same...
???
aclu spokeswoman?
Posted By: Retired DQ
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 02:59 PM
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Oh, please. The US Army likes to torture people...
Tell it to Abu Graib.
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 03:10 PM
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Personally, I'm a conservative, but torture isn't the answer to anything.
Personally, I'm a conservative, but non-sequiturs aren't the answer to anything.
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 03:11 PM
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Oh, please. The US Army likes to torture people...
Tell it to Abu Graib.
Ah, more stereotyping from the Devil! Good job!
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 03:12 PM
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j took his toys and went home. and the sandbox was never the same...
???
aclu spokeswoman?
Oh, sorry - thought I was replying to a female. Not that that's a bad thing, so I'm not sure why any offense was taken.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 03:22 PM
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j took his toys and went home. and the sandbox was never the same...
???
aclu spokeswoman?
Oh, sorry - thought I was replying to a female. Not that that's a bad thing, so I'm not sure why any offense was taken.
you seem to know every other one of my posts. you responded to my post with that comment and now you are in apparent disbelief.
sure i believe you 
Posted By: MB Guy
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 03:22 PM
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Oh, please. The US Army likes to torture people...
Tell it to Abu Graib.
Do you seriously call that torture? Please, I have seen worse things in college fraternity hazing.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 03:24 PM
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Oh, please. The US Army likes to torture people...
Tell it to Abu Graib.
Do you seriously call that torture? Please, I have seen worse things in college fraternity hazing.
you call what they did/do at sig nu hazing, marky?
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 03:31 PM
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you seem to know every other one of my posts. you responded to my post with that comment and now you are in apparent disbelief.
sure i believe you
Hey, anon, I apologized for the mistake. But I still don't get why you would get your panties all in a wad.
Oops...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 03:36 PM
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you seem to know every other one of my posts. you responded to my post with that comment and now you are in apparent disbelief.
sure i believe you
Hey, anon, I apologized for the mistake. But I still don't get why you would get your panties all in a wad.
Oops...
your incredulity is SO believable.
Posted By: Fraudman CFCI
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 03:49 PM
My comments here are my own. No article was copied.
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 05:07 PM
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your incredulity is SO believable.
See, when I read that, it just sounds like a woman's voice. I guess that's what happened with your earlier posts. Again, my apologies.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 05:16 PM
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Extremists of any ilk determined to undermine our way of life have no place in our open society.
Then why does popular American politics cater only to the party extremes? Why does the media promote extremist views? Why was Dubya elected the second time? Why do fringe elements of both parties hold sway today?
Posted By: Hrothgar Geiger
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 05:20 PM
Well, just to add to the general hilarity...
Fraudman, while revisiting stuff we did during WWII, how would you feel about revisiting internment camps for "Middle Eastern male Islamists, 17 - 40 years of age" since, in another thread, we seem to have fastened on a crystal clear terrorist profle?
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 05:27 PM
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Then why does popular American politics cater only to the party extremes? Why does the media promote extremist views? Why was Dubya elected the second time? Why do fringe elements of both parties hold sway today?
Look, I disagree with the Democratic party almost as much as anyone, but I don't think it's fair to say that the fringe elements of either party hold sway (yet) - yes, they pulled off a (temporary?) victory in Connecticut - but they lost in Georgia. They lost in the 2004 Presidential primaries. Kerry is not (was not?) an extremist. Neither is Bush.
Posted By: HappyGilmore
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 05:29 PM
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in past wars, when the enemy has been deserving of prisoner-of-war status
I'm fairly certain that to be a prisoner of war, you must be a soldier or enemy combatant. Your double-speak is interesting...
From Wikipedia...A prisoner of war (POW, PoW, or PW) is a soldier, sailor, airman, marine, or any combatant who is imprisoned by an enemy power during or immediately after an armed conflict. By international law and several mutually agreed conventions, prisoners of war are required to be treated humanely and diplomatically. Specifically Chapter II of the Annex to the 1907 Hague Convention covered the treatment of prisoners of war in detail. These were further expanded in the Third Geneva Convention of 1929, and its revision of 1949.
However, nations vary in their dedication to following these laws. Of late, numerous countries have openly flouted these laws. In particular, USA has been sharply criticized by the international community for its alleged mistreatment of detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and Abu Ghraib, Iraq. However, the US government continues to insist that these detainees do not qualify as POWs (see below).
Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention protects captured military personnel, some guerrilla fighters and certain civilians. It applies from the moment a prisoner is captured until he or she is released or repatriated. One of the main provisions of the convention makes it illegal to torture prisoners, and states that a prisoner can only be required to give his or her name, date of birth, rank and service number (if applicable).
The status of POW does not include unarmed non-combatants who are captured in time of war; they are protected by the Fourth Geneva Convention rather than the Third Geneva Convention.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 05:37 PM
I tend to agree on Kerry, but Bush just seems out there. In 2000, I voted for him because I was not a fan of the Gore's. In 2004, I voted for Kerry, but it was more of a vote against Bush, than for Kerry.
I'm registered Republican, but in reality I'm a middle of the Independent or moderate (Liberal? Is there such a thing) Republican at heart. I get tired of hearing extremist views at political events, fundraisers, etc...Abortion and gay marriage shouldn't even be national issues, each state should decide.
National issues should be the environment, foreign policy, economy, defense, immigration, creating a strong infrstructure, etc...
Hence my mantra: We need a viable third party option.
Posted By: steven1950
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 05:41 PM
If bush and the warmongers in Washington were so damned sure of their position, then why did they put their "prisoners" in Gitmo?
And whether or not bush's prisoners are covered by the Geneva Convention or not, what about the "spirit" of the Convention and the US Constitution? It seems to me that if this administration cared about public opinion, here and abroad, those men at Gitmo would be moved to the US, given access to our court system, and tried by a jury.
Posted By: straw
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 06:24 PM
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If bush and the warmongers in Washington were so damned sure of their position, then why did they put their "prisoners" in Gitmo?
And whether or not bush's prisoners are covered by the Geneva Convention or not, what about the "spirit" of the Convention and the US Constitution? It seems to me that if this administration cared about public opinion, here and abroad, those men at Gitmo would be moved to the US , given access to our court system, and tried by a jury.
Is fighting in a war a crime?
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 06:57 PM
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in past wars, when the enemy has been deserving of prisoner-of-war status
I'm fairly certain that to be a prisoner of war, you must be a soldier or enemy combatant. Your double-speak is interesting...
A "prisoner of war" is due certain obligations under the Geneva Conventions. Illegal combatants are not. There is no double-speak.
I would be careful about trusting Wikipedia. In hamdan, the SCOTUS majority basically ruled that the Guantanamo detainees are subject to the protections of Article 3 because - get this - the conflict was "not of an international character". The Court (intentionally?) confused the type of conflict we are involved in (with non-signatories) with the type that the Convention was meant to address (a civil war).
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It seems to me that if this administration cared about public opinion, here and abroad, those men at Gitmo would be moved to the US, given access to our court system, and tried by a jury.
Thankfully, this administration cares more about keeping Americans from being murdered than it does about public opinion, here and (especially) abroad.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 07:02 PM
So here's a question to fan the flames a little.............were we "illegal combatants" when we began to uprise in the Revolutionary Times?
With your descriptions we were and therefore would not be afforded any rights then!
Hmmmm....
I know I know, we were not terriorists but we did kill a few British because we opposed taxes! (Obviously more than that but you get my drift!)
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 07:10 PM
I believe the quote at the signing of the Declaration of Independence was (something to the effect of) "we must hang together, or we shall hang separately". The revolutionaries would have been treated as traitors, not "illegal combatants" - they were uniformed and targeted the British (and mercenary) military, not civilians.
Posted By: RandomName
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 08:38 PM
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The revolutionaries would have been treated as traitors, not "illegal combatants" - they were uniformed...
Not all the time. I just read about this last night, so I'm seizing a chance to be pedantic. The townfolk of Machias, for instance, took it poorly when a British schooner threatened to make an example of their liberty-lovin' belligerence. The local firebrands, all non-uniformed civilians and armed mainly with fowling pieces and pitchforks, then commandeered a sloop and attacked the British vessel and forced it to surrender.
The Liberty ship SS Jeremiah O'Brien, now a museum at the wharf in San Francisco, was named after the leader of the Yankee rabblerousers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_O'Brien
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 08:42 PM
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The local firebrands, all non-uniformed civilians...
Fair point. It was still a military target, though, so I don't think you can make the leap to call them terrorists.
Posted By: RandomName
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 09:39 PM
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The local firebrands, all non-uniformed civilians...
Fair point. It was still a military target, though, so I don't think you can make the leap to call them terrorists.
I think the crew of the USS Cole would hold a different opinion. Although to be fair, each of these two incidents was under vastly different circumstances.
Posted By: Jokerman
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 10:22 PM
So you do think that the townspeople in the incident you cited qualify as terrorists?
Posted By: RandomName
Re: My How Times Have Changed - 08/23/06 11:19 PM
Eh, I was just arguing to argue.
A very blithe pass at this would reduce it to:
American civilians use improvised weaponry to attack warship = patriotic goodness
Muslim civilians use improvised weaponry to attack warship = terrorism
But that's clearly a distortion of the context. For one thing, there was a declared war going on in the former case, and the American civilians seized the ship with the goal of hosing the British (or, to put it another way, stopping a threatened British attack, albeit one that the Americans had provoked) and then using it as a privateer.
In the latter case, there was no war, and the attack on the Cole wasn't to prevent an imminent action against the local populace, and the goal wasn't to seize and use the ship, but rather just to blow things up and make a twisted and violent statement. (And, arguably, to gauge America's reaction to this assault.)
So while the two incidents have some vague similarities, I would think it safe to say that O'Brien and company weren't terrorists. So back to my first statement at the top.