FDA Approval

Posted By: Snow Bunny

FDA Approval - 08/24/06 04:16 PM

The FDA has approved the 'morning after pill' for over-the-counter sales to women 18 and older. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14497678/wid/11915773?GT1=8404 I don't have a daughter, but if I did, I would want her to have this.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 04:16 PM

Quote:

The FDA has approved the 'morning after pill' for over-the-counter sales to women 18 and older. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14497678/wid/11915773?GT1=8404 I don't have a daughter, but if I did, I would want her to have this.



the end is nigh! the end is nigh!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 04:18 PM

I think this is giving young women a reason to now have unprotected sex and I am absolutely sure that it will increase the percentage of people who have transmitted diseases. I think that it should at least be administered by a doctor and that the age limit on it should be increased as well. I don't really agree with it. . . but oh well

~Master Shake~
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 04:23 PM

Quote:

I think this is giving young women a reason to now have unprotected sex and I am absolutely sure that it will increase the percentage of people who have transmitted diseases. I think that it should at least be administered by a doctor and that the age limit on it should be increased as well. I don't really agree with it. . . but oh well

~Master Shake~



are you serious? SO many teenagers have been holding back before this. the floodgates will open now.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 04:35 PM

Why does the responsibility for not transmitting sexual diseases rest on the woman? I would think that men would want to be disease free just as much as women.

Shhh
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 04:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think this is giving young women a reason to now have unprotected sex and I am absolutely sure that it will increase the percentage of people who have transmitted diseases. I think that it should at least be administered by a doctor and that the age limit on it should be increased as well. I don't really agree with it. . . but oh well

~Master Shake~



are you serious? SO many teenagers have been holding back before this. the floodgates will open now.




Im not sure I am understanding you . . .
Posted By: steven1950

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 04:37 PM

I think there should be a morning-after pill for men!!

Fair is fair.
Posted By: Peepers

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 04:38 PM

Quote:

I think there should be a morning-after pill for men!!

Fair is fair.




I agree, something to forget the woman I brought home the night before.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 04:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think there should be a morning-after pill for men!!

Fair is fair.






I agree, something to forget the woman I brought home the night before.




Don't you do that already without a pill?

Shhh
Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 04:53 PM

Quote:

Why does the responsibility for not transmitting sexual diseases rest on the woman? I would think that men would want to be disease free just as much as women.

Shhh




Nah, we love scratchin'
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 04:56 PM

Quote:

Why does the responsibility for not transmitting sexual diseases rest on the woman? I would think that men would want to be disease free just as much as women.

Shhh



men aren't that smart! Thats why just about everything is left up to a women.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:16 PM

Quote:

I don't have a daughter, but if I did, I would want her to have this.




Why?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't have a daughter, but if I did, I would want her to have this.




Why?




Maybe so she doesnt get pregnant... That would be the point of the pill
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I don't have a daughter, but if I did, I would want her to have this.




Why?




Maybe so she doesnt get pregnant... That would be the point of the pill




You mean so that she can stop being pregnant. In order to not get pregnant, I know of only one method that works with certainty.
Posted By: MichelleDawn

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:34 PM

This is a very good thing.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't have a daughter, but if I did, I would want her to have this.




Why?




Because we all do things we regret. I did. I know that I sweated out a few days one time when I was younger. You can say all you like about being careful, or using protectection, etc. But, condoms do break. And I won't even go near the rape/date rape issue.

Shhh
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I don't have a daughter, but if I did, I would want her to have this.




Why?




Maybe so she doesnt get pregnant... That would be the point of the pill




You mean so that she can stop being pregnant. In order to not get pregnant, I know of only one method that works with certainty.




Incorrect once again. If you read any single article on this issue you would realize this pill is not like the RU-486 (I think that's the one) pill. It doesnt terminate pregnancy. It only stops (a certain percent) pregnancy if conception has not already happened.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:49 PM

Quote:

If you read any single article on this issue you would realize this pill is not like the RU-486 (I think that's the one) pill. It doesnt terminate pregnancy. It only stops (a certain percent) pregnancy if conception has not already happened.




Wrong. Plan B can work to prevent ovulation (like traditional birth control), but it can also be effective post-fertilization, by preventing the embryo's implantation in the womb. An embryo prevented from implantation will die.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If you read any single article on this issue you would realize this pill is not like the RU-486 (I think that's the one) pill. It doesnt terminate pregnancy. It only stops (a certain percent) pregnancy if conception has not already happened.




Wrong. Plan B can work to prevent ovulation (like traditional birth control), but it can also be effective post-fertilization, by preventing the embryo's implantation in the womb. An embryo prevented from implantation will die.



should we criminalize out-of-wedlock sex?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If you read any single article on this issue you would realize this pill is not like the RU-486 (I think that's the one) pill. It doesnt terminate pregnancy. It only stops (a certain percent) pregnancy if conception has not already happened.




Wrong. Plan B can work to prevent ovulation (like traditional birth control), but it can also be effective post-fertilization, by preventing the embryo's implantation in the womb. An embryo prevented from implantation will die.




From the article of yahoo.com written by to AP medical writers.

"The pills are a concentrated dose of the same drug found in many regular birth-control pills. Taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex, a woman can lower the risk of pregnancy by up to 89 percent.(and since you seem to like bold so much) If she already is pregnant, the pills have no effect."
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:54 PM

and before you jump all over me I meant two* not to
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If you read any single article on this issue you would realize this pill is not like the RU-486 (I think that's the one) pill. It doesnt terminate pregnancy. It only stops (a certain percent) pregnancy if conception has not already happened.




Wrong. Plan B can work to prevent ovulation (like traditional birth control), but it can also be effective post-fertilization, by preventing the embryo's implantation in the womb. An embryo prevented from implantation will die.




From the article of yahoo.com written by to AP medical writers.

"The pills are a concentrated dose of the same drug found in many regular birth-control pills. Taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex, a woman can lower the risk of pregnancy by up to 89 percent.(and since you seem to like bold so much) If she already is pregnant, the pills have no effect."



don't bother. in the religious world, pregnancy and conception are the same thing.
Posted By: MichelleDawn

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:55 PM

This should get very interesting.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:57 PM

Quote:

and before you jump all over me I meant two* not to




jump jump jump jump jump jump
______________________________

me


Posted By: straw

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If you read any single article on this issue you would realize this pill is not like the RU-486 (I think that's the one) pill. It doesnt terminate pregnancy. It only stops (a certain percent) pregnancy if conception has not already happened.




Wrong. Plan B can work to prevent ovulation (like traditional birth control), but it can also be effective post-fertilization, by preventing the embryo's implantation in the womb. An embryo prevented from implantation will die.




I thought this had no effect on a fertilized embryo.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:59 PM

Quote:

If she already is pregnant, the pills have no effect.




From the FDA: "If fertilization does occur, Plan B may prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the womb (implantation)."

From Webster's: preg·nant
containing a developing embryo, fetus, or unborn offspring within the body
Posted By: DeeQ

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:59 PM

Here we go again...

The only problem I have with this pill is the non-consideration of STD transmittal.

If I were married and already had my quota of children; I would certainly consider using it. Oh, never mind, I'll just go on welfare...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 05:59 PM

Quote:

This should get very interesting.




I agree, SP.

Shhh
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:01 PM

Quote:

I thought this had no effect on a fertilized embryo.




You have been misinformed.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:01 PM

Then it appears as if the medical writers for AP have been misinformed.

I think I'll bold everything from now on...
Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:02 PM

To all those taking these black and white stands on abortion... I don't know if any of you have teenage daughters, but imagine this scenario...

Your 15 year old daughter comes home and tells you she's pregnant -- happened at a party and she doesn't even know who the guy is. She's your youngest and your plans were that she attend college while you and your wife retire to your beach house. So now you say, "don't worry honey, have the baby and your mother and I will put our lives on permanent hold so we can raise your's and whatshisname's baby while you finish school and figure out your life. Because after all abortion would be taking a life and it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do.

Easy to say -- not so easy to do.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:03 PM

Quote:

Then it appears as if the medical writers for AP have been misinformed.





I'm sure that nobody who works for the AP has an agenda.
Posted By: DeeQ

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:06 PM

Quote:

To all those taking these black and white stands on abortion... I don't know if any of you have teenage daughters, but imagine this scenario...

Your 15 year old daughter comes home and tells you she's pregnant -- happened at a party and she doesn't even know who the guy is. She's your youngest and your plans were that she attend college while you and your wife retire to your beach house. So now you say, "don't worry honey, have the baby and your mother and I will put our lives on permanent hold so we can raise your's and whatshisname's baby while you finish school and figure out your life. Because after all abortion would be taking a life and it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do.

Easy to say -- not so easy to do.




TICG, it is more like swapping a life for a life, isn't it?... either way.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:07 PM

[quoteFrom the FDA: "If fertilization does occur, Plan B may prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the womb (implantation)."




Please point me to such - this is all I find from the FDAs website:

From the press release:
"Plan B is often referred to as emergency contraception or the "morning after pill." It contains an ingredient used in prescription birth control pills--only in the case of Plan B, each pill contains a higher dose and the product has a different dosing regimen. Like other birth control pills, Plan B has been available to all women as a prescription drug. When used as directed, Plan B effectively and safely prevents pregnancy."

From the Q&A

"4. How does Plan B work?

Plan B works like other oral birth control pills to prevent pregnancy. Plan B acts primarily by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary (ovulation). It may prevent the union of sperm and egg (fertilization)."
Posted By: RVFlyboy

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:08 PM

Quote:

Then it appears as if the medical writers for AP have been misinformed.

I think I'll bold everything from now on...



I think it has to do with what is considered "pregnant". -5- provided Webster's definition above. But some will say that pregnancy doesn't occur until the embryo is implanted in the wall of the womb, in which case their contention that the pill will have no effect if you are already pregnant would be accurate from that viewpoint.

The facts do seem to indicate that the pill can prevent a fertilized egg (embryo) from attaching to the wall of the womb. Whether you see that as having an effect on pregnancy will depend on how you define "pregnant".
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:11 PM

To all those taking these black and white stands on genocide... I don't know if any of you have Jewish friends, but imagine this scenario...

Your 15 year old Jewish neighbor's daughter runs to your house and tells you she's being chased by the SS -- her family had been forced into the ghetto, but she escaped. She's your neighbor's youngest. Your plans were to soon retire to your beach house. So now you say, "don't worry honey, you can hide here in our attic and we will put our lives in jeopardy to protect your life. Because, after all, sending you to Auschwitz would be taking a life and it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do.

Easy to say -- not so easy to do.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:10 PM

Quote:

To all those taking these black and white stands on abortion... I don't know if any of you have teenage daughters, but imagine this scenario...

Your 15 year old daughter comes home and tells you she's pregnant -- happened at a party and she doesn't even know who the guy is. She's your youngest and your plans were that she attend college while you and your wife retire to your beach house. So now you say, "don't worry honey, have the baby and your mother and I will put our lives on permanent hold so we can raise your's and whatshisname's baby while you finish school and figure out your life. Because after all abortion would be taking a life and it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do.

Easy to say -- not so easy to do.




Or how about......Your 16 year old daughter wakes up after a party where the only thing she was drinking was soda. She's in bed, her clothes are disheveled, she has a headache and vaguely remembers feeling really weird the night before, and there's evidence of having had sex, but she has no memory of it. Her soda was drugged by one of the nice upstanding young punks who then raped her along with his friends. I would want it available for her.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:11 PM

Quote:

[quoteFrom the FDA: "If fertilization does occur, Plan B may prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the womb (implantation)."




Please point me to such - this is all I find from the FDAs website:

From the press release:
"Plan B is often referred to as emergency contraception or the "morning after pill." It contains an ingredient used in prescription birth control pills--only in the case of Plan B, each pill contains a higher dose and the product has a different dosing regimen. Like other birth control pills, Plan B has been available to all women as a prescription drug. When used as directed, Plan B effectively and safely prevents pregnancy."

From the Q&A

"4. How does Plan B work?

Plan B works like other oral birth control pills to prevent pregnancy. Plan B acts primarily by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary (ovulation). It may prevent the union of sperm and egg (fertilization)."



didn't you know, the FDA's sole agenda is to turn us into a Godless society.
Posted By: RVFlyboy

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:13 PM

Quote:

To all those taking these black and white stands on abortion... I don't know if any of you have teenage daughters, but imagine this scenario...

Your 15 year old daughter comes home and tells you she's pregnant -- happened at a party and she doesn't even know who the guy is. She's your youngest and your plans were that she attend college while you and your wife retire to your beach house. So now you say, "don't worry honey, have the baby and your mother and I will put our lives on permanent hold so we can raise your's and whatshisname's baby while you finish school and figure out your life. Because after all abortion would be taking a life and it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do.

Easy to say -- not so easy to do.



No, but I think it would be easier to say to her, "Your mother and I will support you and help you through this pregnancy. Then for the best interest of you, the baby, and our entire family, we should provide that baby for adoption into a loving, committed, two-parent (mother and father, not mother and mother or father and father) household. Abortion should not be an option for you because abortion is the wrong thing in the eyes of God."

And for what it's worth, I have two daughters, 17 and 23.
Posted By: deppfan

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:14 PM

Quote:

To all those taking these black and white stands on abortion... I don't know if any of you have teenage daughters, but imagine this scenario...

Your 15 year old daughter comes home and tells you she's pregnant -- happened at a party and she doesn't even know who the guy is. She's your youngest and your plans were that she attend college while you and your wife retire to your beach house. So now you say, "don't worry honey, have the baby and your mother and I will put our lives on permanent hold so we can raise your's and whatshisname's baby while you finish school and figure out your life. Because after all abortion would be taking a life and it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do.

Easy to say -- not so easy to do.




Been there, with a few differences. The daughter was a freshman in college, the boyfriend said "Get rid of it, or get the [censored] out of my life." She did not want an abortion, so I held her and cried with her as we came home from the hospital, while the beautiful child she gave birth to went home to adoptive parents. It wasn't easy to do either, but now a couple who was unable to conceive has a child of their own. I would be sad to think that either of my daughters would take the morning after pill. But that's just my opinion.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:17 PM

did the FDA announce use of this was mandatory for citizens?
Posted By: MichelleDawn

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

To all those taking these black and white stands on abortion... I don't know if any of you have teenage daughters, but imagine this scenario...

Your 15 year old daughter comes home and tells you she's pregnant -- happened at a party and she doesn't even know who the guy is. She's your youngest and your plans were that she attend college while you and your wife retire to your beach house. So now you say, "don't worry honey, have the baby and your mother and I will put our lives on permanent hold so we can raise your's and whatshisname's baby while you finish school and figure out your life. Because after all abortion would be taking a life and it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do.

Easy to say -- not so easy to do.



No, but I think it would be easier to say to her, "Your mother and I will support you and help you through this pregnancy. Then for the best interest of you, the baby, and our entire family, we should provide that baby for adoption into a loving, committed, two-parent (mother and father, not mother and mother or father and father) household. Abortion should not be an option for you because abortion is the wrong thing in the eyes of God."

And for what it's worth, I have two daughters, 17 and 23.




That's fine for your daughters, but if I had daughters I certainly wouldn't want them getting that message.
Posted By: RVFlyboy

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:18 PM

Quote:

did the FDA announce use of this was mandatory for citizens?



No. What's your point?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

From the FDA: "If fertilization does occur, Plan B may prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the womb (implantation)."




Please point me to such




http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/planB/planBQandA.htm
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

did the FDA announce use of this was mandatory for citizens?



No. What's your point?



oh, i was beginning to think that people had to use this.
Posted By: RVFlyboy

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

did the FDA announce use of this was mandatory for citizens?



No. What's your point?



oh, i was beginning to think that people had to use this.



What made you think that?
Posted By: straw

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Then it appears as if the medical writers for AP have been misinformed.





I'm sure that nobody who works for the AP has an agenda.




Well it is possible the agendas are at work. Could you point me to where this is discussed. I have been unable to find it. Here is what I have found.

Here is a copy of a question from FDA's Q&A

"4. How does Plan B work?

Plan B works like other oral birth control pills to prevent pregnancy. Plan B acts primarily by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary (ovulation). It may prevent the union of sperm and egg (fertilization). "

From the drug company's Q & A

"Plan BŪ should not be used if you are already pregnant (because it will not work), "

From drug warnings issued to doctors, it states

"Plan B is not effective in terminating existing pregancies." See link, p. 6 http://www.go2planb.com/PDF/PlanBPI.pdf
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

To all those taking these black and white stands on abortion... I don't know if any of you have teenage daughters, but imagine this scenario...

Your 15 year old daughter comes home and tells you she's pregnant -- happened at a party and she doesn't even know who the guy is. She's your youngest and your plans were that she attend college while you and your wife retire to your beach house. So now you say, "don't worry honey, have the baby and your mother and I will put our lives on permanent hold so we can raise your's and whatshisname's baby while you finish school and figure out your life. Because after all abortion would be taking a life and it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do.

Easy to say -- not so easy to do.



No, but I think it would be easier to say to her, "Your mother and I will support you and help you through this pregnancy. Then for the best interest of you, the baby, and our entire family, we should provide that baby for adoption into a loving, committed, two-parent (mother and father, not mother and mother or father and father) household. Abortion should not be an option for you because abortion is the wrong thing in the eyes of God."

And for what it's worth, I have two daughters, 17 and 23.




That's fine for your daughters, but if I had daughters I certainly wouldn't want them getting that message.




We raised out son with the message that abortion is wrong. It should not be a form of birth control. We just don't agree with it. Our opinion, nothing more, nothing less. However, I would not outlaw abortion. This pill I think is a good thing. If my daughter got pregnant, I would support her in any and every way I could. But if she was date raped, I would want this available to her.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

did the FDA announce use of this was mandatory for citizens?



No. What's your point?



oh, i was beginning to think that people had to use this.



What made you think that?



with all due respect, don't be naive, jim.
Posted By: straw

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

From the FDA: "If fertilization does occur, Plan B may prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the womb (implantation)."




Please point me to such




http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/planB/planBQandA.htm




The Q & A on this FDA link doesn't say that.

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/planB/planBQandA20060824.htm

What gives?
Posted By: MichelleDawn

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

To all those taking these black and white stands on abortion... I don't know if any of you have teenage daughters, but imagine this scenario...

Your 15 year old daughter comes home and tells you she's pregnant -- happened at a party and she doesn't even know who the guy is. She's your youngest and your plans were that she attend college while you and your wife retire to your beach house. So now you say, "don't worry honey, have the baby and your mother and I will put our lives on permanent hold so we can raise your's and whatshisname's baby while you finish school and figure out your life. Because after all abortion would be taking a life and it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do.

Easy to say -- not so easy to do.



No, but I think it would be easier to say to her, "Your mother and I will support you and help you through this pregnancy. Then for the best interest of you, the baby, and our entire family, we should provide that baby for adoption into a loving, committed, two-parent (mother and father, not mother and mother or father and father) household. Abortion should not be an option for you because abortion is the wrong thing in the eyes of God."

And for what it's worth, I have two daughters, 17 and 23.




That's fine for your daughters, but if I had daughters I certainly wouldn't want them getting that message.




We raised out son with the message that abortion is wrong. It should not be a form of birth control. We just don't agree with it. Our opinion, nothing more, nothing less. However, I would not outlaw abortion. This pill I think is a good thing. If my daughter got pregnant, I would support her in any and every way I could. But if she was date raped, I would want this available to her.




I agree, it shouldn't be used as birth control, but I don't think any one group should be determining what a person should hear. Anyone can say what they want in their own house, but when these things get into schools and clinics I have issues. I would want to present ALL the options and talk about each of them before making the decision.
Posted By: rainman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:37 PM

Straw, it's the response to Q 3. Here's what it says:

3. How does Plan B work?

Plan B works like other birth control pills to prevent pregnancy. Plan B acts primarily by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary (ovulation). It may prevent the union of sperm and egg (fertilization). If fertilization does occur, Plan B may prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the womb (implantation) . If a fertilized egg is implanted prior to taking Plan B, Plan B will not work.


It looks like they have 2 Q&A's (at least); the answer to this question was revised for the most recent version. I don't know why.
Posted By: straw

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:38 PM

that is from the Q & A issued on the denial. Please look at the Q & a dated today. Questions 3 & 4 are different and read as follows:

"3. What is Plan B?

Plan B is emergency contraception, a backup method to birth control. It is in the form of two levonorgestrel pills (0.75 mg in each pill) that are taken by mouth after a contraceptive fails or after unprotected sex. Levonorgestrel is a synthetic hormone used in birth control pills for over 35 years. Plan B can reduce the chances of a woman becoming pregnant when taken as directed if she has had unprotected sex. Prior to this action, Plan B was available only by prescription.

4. How does Plan B work?

Plan B works like other oral birth control pills to prevent pregnancy. Plan B acts primarily by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary (ovulation). It may prevent the union of sperm and egg (fertilization)."
Posted By: rainman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:41 PM

yeah, I figured that out after I had already posted. . . sorry.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

To all those taking these black and white stands on abortion... I don't know if any of you have teenage daughters, but imagine this scenario...

Your 15 year old daughter comes home and tells you she's pregnant -- happened at a party and she doesn't even know who the guy is. She's your youngest and your plans were that she attend college while you and your wife retire to your beach house. So now you say, "don't worry honey, have the baby and your mother and I will put our lives on permanent hold so we can raise your's and whatshisname's baby while you finish school and figure out your life. Because after all abortion would be taking a life and it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do.

Easy to say -- not so easy to do.



No, but I think it would be easier to say to her, "Your mother and I will support you and help you through this pregnancy. Then for the best interest of you, the baby, and our entire family, we should provide that baby for adoption into a loving, committed, two-parent (mother and father, not mother and mother or father and father) household. Abortion should not be an option for you because abortion is the wrong thing in the eyes of God."

And for what it's worth, I have two daughters, 17 and 23.




That's fine for your daughters, but if I had daughters I certainly wouldn't want them getting that message.




We raised out son with the message that abortion is wrong. It should not be a form of birth control. We just don't agree with it. Our opinion, nothing more, nothing less. However, I would not outlaw abortion. This pill I think is a good thing. If my daughter got pregnant, I would support her in any and every way I could. But if she was date raped, I would want this available to her.




I agree, it shouldn't be used as birth control, but I don't think any one group should be determining what a person should hear. I would want to present ALL the options and talk about each of them before making the decision.




I agree with you, Sweetpeas (oh, I guess I'm not supposed to say that, am I). I am much more pro-life than pro-choice, but every case has to be determinded individually. This pill makes sense. Plain and Simple!

Shhhhh
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:39 PM

Quote:

What gives?




Apparently they have changed their story about how it works.

Interestingly, its manufacturer has not: http://www.go2planb.com/ForConsumers/AboutPlanB/HowItWorks.aspx
Posted By: MichelleDawn

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

To all those taking these black and white stands on abortion... I don't know if any of you have teenage daughters, but imagine this scenario...

Your 15 year old daughter comes home and tells you she's pregnant -- happened at a party and she doesn't even know who the guy is. She's your youngest and your plans were that she attend college while you and your wife retire to your beach house. So now you say, "don't worry honey, have the baby and your mother and I will put our lives on permanent hold so we can raise your's and whatshisname's baby while you finish school and figure out your life. Because after all abortion would be taking a life and it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do.

Easy to say -- not so easy to do.



No, but I think it would be easier to say to her, "Your mother and I will support you and help you through this pregnancy. Then for the best interest of you, the baby, and our entire family, we should provide that baby for adoption into a loving, committed, two-parent (mother and father, not mother and mother or father and father) household. Abortion should not be an option for you because abortion is the wrong thing in the eyes of God."

And for what it's worth, I have two daughters, 17 and 23.




That's fine for your daughters, but if I had daughters I certainly wouldn't want them getting that message.




We raised out son with the message that abortion is wrong. It should not be a form of birth control. We just don't agree with it. Our opinion, nothing more, nothing less. However, I would not outlaw abortion. This pill I think is a good thing. If my daughter got pregnant, I would support her in any and every way I could. But if she was date raped, I would want this available to her.




I agree, it shouldn't be used as birth control, but I don't think any one group should be determining what a person should hear. I would want to present ALL the options and talk about each of them before making the decision.




I agree with you, Sweetpeas (oh, I guess I'm not supposed to say that, am I). I am much more pro-life than pro-choice, but every case has to be determinded individually. This pill makes sense. Plain and Simple!

Shhhhh




Prepare to be flogged for agreeing. God have mercy on your soul.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:45 PM


Prepare to be flogged for agreeing. God have mercy on your soul.






Shhh
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:47 PM

Quote:

Interestingly, its manufacturer has not...




In fact, here's how they put it: "Plan BŪ works like a regular birth control pill. It prevents pregnancy mainly by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary, and may also prevent the fertilization of an egg (the uniting of sperm with the egg). Plan BŪ may also work by preventing it from attaching to the uterus (womb)."

It? What is "it"? Why would they use a pronoun when they have not already referred to what "it" is?
Posted By: straw

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:50 PM

Well I was wondering if the FDA had included the original comment for political reasons. Looks like the comment was deleting for political reasons.

I was wondering what all the hoopla was over the this, since I thought the drug did not have any affect on embryo.
Now I understand the fuss.

Very interesting.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:55 PM

Quote:

since I thought the drug did not have any affect on embryo.



technically it doesn't. it doesn't allow integration into the uterus. it doesn't do anything the fertilized egg itself.
Posted By: straw

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 06:57 PM

I am sorry; let me choose my words more carefully.

I understand the hoopla now that I know that it may prevent a fertilized egg from implanting into the uterus, which makes it much more like RU-486 than I realized.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 07:04 PM

Quote:

I am sorry; let me choose my words more carefully.

I understand the hoopla now that I know that it may prevent a fertilized egg from implanting into the uterus, which makes it much more like RU-486 than I realized.



much better

are they forcing people to take RU486 like they are with plan b?
Posted By: Dip

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 07:13 PM

my friend took this pill once (got it from planned parent hood after having an abortion).

it makes you super sick to your stomach--cramping, nausea, vomiting. it wiped her out for an entire day. she said after going through it, she'd make sure she wouldnt have to take another pill. so, i say it's a good idea to make it available.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 07:44 PM

Quote:

are they forcing people to take RU486 like they are with plan b?




Ron, you're of course very clever ::pats on head:: but intentionally ignoring the problems that people who value the sanctity of life have with this doesn't do much for that enlightened discussion you're always seeking.

Do the embryos get a say in whether or not someone takes this?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 07:52 PM

Quote:

Do the embryos get a say in whether or not someone takes this?



do they have the ability to have a say?

hey, we have roe v wade. when that changes, let me know. until then, i don't see anybody forcing anybody to use this or any other abortion-related measure.
Posted By: rainman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 07:53 PM

Quote:

hey, we have roe v wade.




I thought this was a discussion about moral issues, not legal standards. Last I knew, we were free to hold different moral views about human life than those expressed by the Roe court.
Posted By: RVFlyboy

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 07:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Do the embryos get a say in whether or not someone takes this?



do they have the ability to have a say?

hey, we have roe v wade. when that changes, let me know. until then, i don't see anybody forcing anybody to use this or any other abortion-related measure.



You're being disingenuous with this tack. No one here is implying that anyone is being forced to take this. Just because someone says they believe something is wrong doesn't mean that anything is being forced on anyone.

If I say that I think it is wrong for the local Little League to schedule ball games on Sunday morning because that's when kids should be in church with their parents, does that mean I'm really stating that I think my kids and those of everyone else are being forced to play Little League or being forced to play on Sunday?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 07:57 PM

Quote:

people who value the sanctity of life



and don't even go down that road with me. aka DP

if you are going to give me a biblical rationale for this inconsistency, i think you know where i am going to go.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 07:57 PM

Quote:

my friend took this pill once (got it from planned parent hood after having an abortion).

it makes you super sick to your stomach--cramping, nausea, vomiting. it wiped her out for an entire day. she said after going through it, she'd make sure she wouldnt have to take another pill. so, i say it's a good idea to make it available.




(a) Yeah, that sounds rough - not quite as bad as ceasing to exist, though.

(b) I'm not sure I understand the logic. Your friend terminated an unwanted pregnancy, then received this product, which she took later to terminate or prevent another unwanted pregnancy. After taking this product, she had a hysterectomy/tubes tied/prescription filled for birth control, in order to avoid taking it again. She did so because of the side effects.

First, isn't it odd that having the traditional abortion itself did not provide a similar motivation? Second, you think that it is a good thing that this is available because of the uncomfortable side effects, not because it is effective at ending/preventing pregnancies?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

hey, we have roe v wade.




I thought this was a discussion about moral issues, not legal standards. Last I knew, we were free to hold different moral views about human life than those expressed by the Roe court.



of course you are. people morally-opposed to this and people not morally-opposed to this BOTH do not have to use it. you would rather them not have the option.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 07:59 PM

I was raised Very Conservative, Very Roman Catholic. Throughout 12 years of Catholic school, we were taught that "You have a day to be born, and a day to die". I'm not trying to fan the flames here, but could these 'pregnancies' not be meant to be born?

Shhh
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:02 PM

Quote:

and don't even go down that road with me. aka DP




I don't care to go down any road with you. It amazes me that you care more about murderers than innocent human life, but that's your position and you are the one that has to justify it.

Quote:

if you are going to give me a biblical rationale for this inconsistency, i think you know where i am going to go.




I think that where you're going is between you and the Lord.

I don't know why anyone would try to give you a Biblical justification for anything, since you do not respect that as a source of authority. However, it is very sad that in today's America, there are people who need it to be justified to them that innocent life ought to be protected.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Do the embryos get a say in whether or not someone takes this?



do they have the ability to have a say?

hey, we have roe v wade. when that changes, let me know. until then, i don't see anybody forcing anybody to use this or any other abortion-related measure.



You're being disingenuous with this tack. No one here is implying that anyone is being forced to take this. Just because someone says they believe something is wrong doesn't mean that anything is being forced on anyone.

If I say that I think it is wrong for the local Little League to schedule ball games on Sunday morning because that's when kids should be in church with their parents, does that mean I'm really stating that I think my kids and those of everyone else are being forced to play Little League or being forced to play on Sunday?



i wasn't being disingenuous. j used the "what would the embryoes say" strawman. i set the record straight.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:04 PM

Quote:

we were taught that "You have a day to be born, and a day to die". I'm not trying to fan the flames here, but could these 'pregnancies' not be meant to be born?




Is that the position you take towards the BTK killer's actions? Perhaps those people were meant to die, and therefore his actions are acceptable?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:46 PM

Quote:

I don't care to go down any road with you. It amazes me that you care more about murderers than innocent human life, but that's your position and you are the one that has to justify it.



why does opposing the DP mean i have compassion for murderers? that's not my logic on that at all.

i don't think the Bible is NOT a source of authority, i just don't want a christian caliphate.

"...innocent [cells] ought to be protected" (that's another way to look at this)

do you really want to talk about this with your view of the DP?
Posted By: MichelleDawn

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:48 PM

Oh goodie we have moved to the death penalty again.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:50 PM

Quote:

Oh goodie we have moved to the death penalty again.



we haven't unless sanctity of life is their rationale.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:50 PM

I didn't say you had compassion on murderers, I said that you care more about them then you do the innocent unborn. And I will talk about this with my views of the death penalty any day of the week. I understand that you can't wrap your mind around that, but I really don't care, especially considering that you would be so stupid as to compare people who respect innocent human life to a group of fascists who believe the exact opposite.
Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:53 PM

Many of the same people who are so concerned about saving bundles of cells don't seem to have the same concern about young men and women being sent to their death in Iraq. It is a case of selective morals.
Posted By: Dip

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

my friend took this pill once (got it from planned parent hood after having an abortion).

it makes you super sick to your stomach--cramping, nausea, vomiting. it wiped her out for an entire day. she said after going through it, she'd make sure she wouldnt have to take another pill. so, i say it's a good idea to make it available.




(a) Yeah, that sounds rough - not quite as bad as ceasing to exist, though.

(b) I'm not sure I understand the logic. Your friend terminated an unwanted pregnancy, then received this product, which she took later to terminate or prevent another unwanted pregnancy. After taking this product, she had a hysterectomy/tubes tied/prescription filled for birth control, in order to avoid taking it again. She did so because of the side effects.

First, isn't it odd that having the traditional abortion itself did not provide a similar motivation? Second, you think that it is a good thing that this is available because of the uncomfortable side effects, not because it is effective at ending/preventing pregnancies?




well, if you get an abortion early enough, aside from the emotions, it is not that painful. my friend liekened it to getting a lengthy pap smear. And 15 minutes later or however long it took, you'rs done. not that bad if you weren't emotionally involved in it.

i'm not condoning abortion or the morning after pill (which literally needs to be taken within so many hours of unprotected sex, and who's to say there was fertilization anyway?) but i do think that most girls who take it will make sure they won't have to take it a second time after goign through the horrible side-effects. the morning after pill affects them directly, not just the fertilized egg.
Posted By: MichelleDawn

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:51 PM

Ah, and the personal attacks begin.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:53 PM

Quote:

well, if you get an abortion early enough, aside from the emotions, it is not that painful. my friend liekened it to getting a lengthy pap smear. And 15 minutes later or however long it took, you'rs done. not that bad if you weren't emotionally involved in it.

i'm not condoning abortion or the morning after pill (which literally needs to be taken within so many hours of unprotected sex, and who's to say there was fertilization anyway?) but i do think that most girls who take it will make sure they won't have to take it a second time after goign through the horrible side-effects. the morning after pill affects them directly, not just the fertilized egg.




I'm sorry, but this post is just ghoulish.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:53 PM

Quote:

I didn't say you had compassion on murderers, I said that you care more about them then you do the innocent unborn. And I will talk about this with my views of the death penalty any day of the week. I understand that you can't wrap your mind around that, but I really don't care, especially considering that you would be so stupid as to compare people who respect innocent human life to a group of fascists who believe the exact opposite.



the innocent cellular clusters you mean?

respect life but favor DP. reason? the bible says...
similarity? religiously-based law.
Posted By: MichelleDawn

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

my friend took this pill once (got it from planned parent hood after having an abortion).

it makes you super sick to your stomach--cramping, nausea, vomiting. it wiped her out for an entire day. she said after going through it, she'd make sure she wouldnt have to take another pill. so, i say it's a good idea to make it available.




(a) Yeah, that sounds rough - not quite as bad as ceasing to exist, though.

(b) I'm not sure I understand the logic. Your friend terminated an unwanted pregnancy, then received this product, which she took later to terminate or prevent another unwanted pregnancy. After taking this product, she had a hysterectomy/tubes tied/prescription filled for birth control, in order to avoid taking it again. She did so because of the side effects.

First, isn't it odd that having the traditional abortion itself did not provide a similar motivation? Second, you think that it is a good thing that this is available because of the uncomfortable side effects, not because it is effective at ending/preventing pregnancies?




well, if you get an abortion early enough, aside from the emotions, it is not that painful. my friend liekened it to getting a lengthy pap smear. And 15 minutes later or however long it took, you'rs done. not that bad if you weren't emotionally involved in it.

i'm not condoning abortion or the morning after pill (which literally needs to be taken within so many hours of unprotected sex, and who's to say there was fertilization anyway?) but i do think that most girls who take it will make sure they won't have to take it a second time after goign through the horrible side-effects. the morning after pill affects them directly, not just the fertilized egg.




Most importantly:

It was her body and her choice. She alone will have to answer for what she did and no one else needs to be concerned about it. Thanks for sharing, Dip.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:55 PM

Quote:

Many of the same people who are so concerned about saving bundles of cells don't seem to have the same concern about young men and women being sent to their death in Iraq. It is a case of selective morals.




People die when nations make the decision to go to war. Unless you want to argue that no war is ever just, you are in a logical dead-end here.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:57 PM

Quote:

the morning after pill affects them directly, not just the fertilized egg.



once again, it does not affect the fertilized egg. it affects embedding with the uterus.
Posted By: deppfan

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 09:00 PM

Quote:

Many of the same people who are so concerned about saving bundles of cells don't seem to have the same concern about young men and women being sent to their death in Iraq. It is a case of selective morals.




I'm very concerned about young men and women being sent to Iraq to face death, but didn't they have a choice to enlist or not enlist?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 08:59 PM

Quote:

the innocent cellular clusters you mean?




You can be as flippant as you like, Ron. The fact is, you are nothing more than a bigger cellular cluster that has been given more time to develop.

Quote:

respect life but favor DP. reason?




The reason I respect life certainly is certainly informed by my beliefs. Why do you believe murder ought to be a crime? The reason I favor the death penalty (and I've written this at least 15 times, I can't believe you have to ask again, Mr. Revenge) is because I believe that society must enforce the ultimate penalty for the ultimate crime (taking innocent human life). Doing anything less lowers the value attached to innocent life.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 09:00 PM

Quote:

You can be as flippant as you like, Ron. The fact is, you are nothing more than a bigger cellular cluster that has been given more time to develop.



oh, so there is no significance then?

black or white. black or white...
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 09:01 PM

Quote:

Most importantly:

It was her body and her choice.




Legally, yes. That wasn't the point of the discussion, however.

Quote:

no one else needs to be concerned about it.




I disagree.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 09:02 PM

Quote:

so there is no significance then?




Your side of the argument appears to believe that human life is insignificant, yes.
Posted By: Dip

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 09:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

the morning after pill affects them directly, not just the fertilized egg.



once again, it does not affect the fertilized egg. it affects embedding with the uterus.




ok, so what happens to the egg when the lining of the uterus does whatever it does to prevent the pregnancy??? somewhere along the line, the possibly fertilized egg dies (yes, its living, maybe it doesnt have a soul, but it is living cells) as a result of takign the pill.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 09:05 PM

Quote:

once again, it does not affect the fertilized egg. it affects embedding with the uterus.




Nice distinction - I didn't starve my newborn, I just affected it's access to nutrition.
Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 09:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

once again, it does not affect the fertilized egg. it affects embedding with the uterus.




Nice distinction - I didn't starve my newborn, I just affected it's access to nutrition.




Hey, maybe if we close down the White House kitchen...
Posted By: straw

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 09:48 PM

Quote:

the innocent cellular clusters you mean?




Quote:

You can be as flippant as you like, Ron. The fact is, you are nothing more than a bigger cellular cluster that has been given more time to develop.





So the gangle of cells in an egg do not deserve any rights, but the gaggle of cells in a Zygote deserve protection. Both, given the right circumstances (sprem and time for one, time for the other) will grow into human beings.

Why not protect the rights of the egg? Why allow birth control of any kind, since that would interfere with the right of that egg to potentially grow into a human being?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 09:56 PM

Quote:

So the gangle of cells in an egg do not deserve any rights, but the gaggle of cells in a Zygote deserve protection. Both, given the right circumstances (sprem and time for one, time for the other) will grow into human beings. Why not protect the rights of the egg?




Both are not human beings - an egg is simply a woman's reproductive cell, no different in classification from a sperm cell. Once fertilized, however, it is a separate, distinct, and complete human being in its earliest stage of development.

Straw, you know this. I hope that you are asking so that others can read and understand, not simply to be argumentative.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 10:30 PM

Quote:

Once fertilized, however, it is a separate, distinct, and complete human being in its earliest stage of development.





A fertilized egg is a complete human being? You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think that many people would disagree. I would say that it is genetically human, but it is a human blastocyst, which IF it attaches to the uterus and IF it develops will become a human being at some point.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 10:32 PM

Quote:

IF it attaches to the uterus and IF it develops will become a human being at some point.




When?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 10:36 PM

I would say when it is viable. Others may disagree, as I'm sure you do.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/24/06 11:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

once again, it does not affect the fertilized egg. it affects embedding with the uterus.




Nice distinction - I didn't starve my newborn, I just affected it's access to nutrition.



did you move out of your parents' house? i'm assuming that you have since you are married. we all see the extremes work, so there.

people, we allow the pro-creation of life to happen. very God-like to me. there are lines to be drawn everywhere. i'm just not sure why ruining her in-being life as an experience, a cognitive experience, should be disallowed. that is the basis for argument in us/we(gr?) living beings anyway.

it's just a line but it is fair. this is a society. you have to find me a secularly-held argument to disagree. the indians had their "tangible" religious interests sacrificed. THAT is a pretty heavy precedent against governmental obligation to refrain from a freedom.
Posted By: straw

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 01:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

So the gangle of cells in an egg do not deserve any rights, but the gaggle of cells in a Zygote deserve protection. Both, given the right circumstances (sprem and time for one, time for the other) will grow into human beings. Why not protect the rights of the egg?




Both are not human beings - an egg is simply a woman's reproductive cell, no different in classification from a sperm cell. Once fertilized, however, it is a separate, distinct, and complete human being in its earliest stage of development.

Straw, you know this. I hope that you are asking so that others can read and understand, not simply to be argumentative.




Would I do that?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 03:19 AM

A baby is only a baby if it is cared for, otherwise it is just a small corpse.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 01:07 PM

It becomes a human being when it is viable??? So, as medical technology advances (right now, pre-term babies can survive births as early as 20-21 weeks; that number gets smaller all the time), the pre-born "become a human being" at earlier and earlier points in time?

Good grief.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 01:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

once again, it does not affect the fertilized egg. it affects embedding with the uterus.




Nice distinction - I didn't starve my newborn, I just affected it's access to nutrition.



did you move out of your parents' house? i'm assuming that you have since you are married. we all see the extremes work, so there.

people, we allow the pro-creation of life to happen. very God-like to me. there are lines to be drawn everywhere. i'm just not sure why ruining her in-being life as an experience, a cognitive experience, should be disallowed. that is the basis for argument in us/we(gr?) living beings anyway.

it's just a line but it is fair. this is a society. you have to find me a secularly-held argument to disagree. the indians had their "tangible" religious interests sacrificed. THAT is a pretty heavy precedent against governmental obligation to refrain from a freedom.




Does ANYONE but post-happy-hour Ron understand this?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 01:17 PM

Quote:

It becomes a human being when it is viable??? So, as medical technology advances (right now, pre-term babies can survive births as early as 20-21 weeks; that number gets smaller all the time), the pre-born "become a human being" at earlier and earlier points in time?

Good grief.



and as we near that technological asymptote, we have to rely on technology derived from bio-engineered means like stem cells. yes, quite a conundrum indeed.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 01:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

once again, it does not affect the fertilized egg. it affects embedding with the uterus.




Nice distinction - I didn't starve my newborn, I just affected it's access to nutrition.



did you move out of your parents' house? i'm assuming that you have since you are married. we all see the extremes work, so there.

people, we allow the pro-creation of life to happen. very God-like to me. there are lines to be drawn everywhere. i'm just not sure why ruining her in-being life as an experience, a cognitive experience, should be disallowed. that is the basis for argument in us/we(gr?) living beings anyway.

it's just a line but it is fair. this is a society. you have to find me a secularly-held argument to disagree. the indians had their "tangible" religious interests sacrificed. THAT is a pretty heavy precedent against governmental obligation to refrain from a freedom.




Does ANYONE but post-happy-hour Ron understand this?



i wasn't at happy hour. what in this did you not understand?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 01:22 PM

Quote:

and as we near that technological asymptote, we have to rely on technology derived from bio-engineered means like stem cells. yes, quite a conundrum indeed.




No, we don't. And, I've never heard anyone complain about the use of stem cells generally. It is the destroying of embryos in order to obtain a particular type of stem cell.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 01:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

and as we near that technological asymptote, we have to rely on technology derived from bio-engineered means like stem cells. yes, quite a conundrum indeed.




No, we don't. And, I've never heard anyone complain about the use of stem cells generally. It is the destroying of embryos in order to obtain a particular type of stem cell.



why don't we? supporting this burgeoning life is going to be ton entirely mechanically?

what about CREATING embryoes, mr it's-ok-to-play-God-in-THAT-instance? is the actual embryonic stem cell process as anathema to your senses as your stance indicates?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 01:32 PM

Quote:

what in this did you not understand?




(a) How is moving out of my parents' house relevant to a parent's duty to a child that cannot care for itself?

(b) How does the fact that we pro-create authorize us to terminate?

(c) I have no idea what this means: "i'm just not sure why ruining her in-being life as an experience, a cognitive experience, should be disallowed. that is the basis for argument in us/we(gr?) living beings anyway."

(d) "you have to find me a secularly-held argument to disagree." I'm not sure why I would only be allowed to disagree on a secular basis. At any rate, secular individuals valued human life in the past. I guess as the belief that we're all just a glob of cells kind of detracts from that value.

(e) "the indians had their "tangible" religious interests sacrificed. THAT is a pretty heavy precedent against governmental obligation to refrain from a freedom." I have no idea what you are talking about or how it could possibly be relevant to this discussion.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 01:36 PM

Quote:

why don't we? supporting this burgeoning life is going to be ton entirely mechanically?




Ron, the point at which pre-term babies are viable has moved dramatically in the last 60 years. It has done so without one advance provided by embryonic stem cells. I see no reason why that advance will not continue without the use of embryonic stem cells.

Quote:

what about CREATING embryoes, mr it's-ok-to-play-God-in-THAT-instance?




Embryos have been created since the beginning of the human race. I have no idea why doing so would be "playing God".

Quote:

is the actual embryonic stem cell process as anathema to your senses as your stance indicates?




Again, this question is too unclear to answer.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 02:16 PM

Quote:

Ron, the point at which pre-term babies are viable has moved dramatically in the last 60 years. It has done so without one advance provided by embryonic stem cells. I see no reason why that advance will not continue without the use of embryonic stem cells.



oh, so there is no limit to what the inorganic can do?

Quote:

Embryos have been created since the beginning of the human race. I have no idea why doing so would be "playing God".



oh, i didn't realize they were doing in-vitro, etc since the dawn of time. my bad.

would we be "killing" as many embryoes for stem cells as you think we would be?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 02:38 PM

Quote:

(a) How is moving out of my parents' house relevant to a parent's duty to a child that cannot care for itself?



this is about drawing lines, j. why 18 for legal emancipation? why are we giving living being protections for a cluster of cells? why does the life of the actual living person not matter?


Quote:

(b) How does the fact that we pro-create authorize us to terminate?



both "play God"

Quote:

(c) I have no idea what this means: "i'm just not sure why ruining her in-being life as an experience, a cognitive experience, should be disallowed. that is the basis for argument in us/we(gr?) living beings anyway."



"i think, therefore i am". get it now?

Quote:

(d) "you have to find me a secularly-held argument to disagree." I'm not sure why I would only be allowed to disagree on a secular basis. At any rate, secular individuals valued human life in the past. I guess as the belief that we're all just a glob of cells kind of detracts from that value.



the female's existing human life get's no consideration? she has an obligation to possibly have a child because she had sex? shall we criminalize out-of-wedlock sex? sounds biblical to me. i think we are a bit more than just a blob of cells. we think. we are autonomous.


Quote:

(e) "the indians had their "tangible" religious interests sacrificed. THAT is a pretty heavy precedent against governmental obligation to refrain from a freedom." I have no idea what you are talking about or how it could possibly be relevant to this discussion.



you would have it be made illegal destroy something you are giving living-being significance to. therefore, you are telling females that they MUST refrain from doing something; you are obligated by the state to do something. in other words, the state is telling individuals they MUST view their bodies in a specific way. the indians respected certain creatures and the land. we had no regard for their religious sensibilities. majority religious views are NOT relevant.

what secular rationale do you have? sanctity of life? sorry, that's religious. i see no correlation between the roe line of logic and a disrespect for existing life. i see POSITIVE effects for human life. i'm having trouble with the opposite.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 03:24 PM

Quote:

so there is no limit to what the inorganic can do?




Ron, you said that we would have to rely on stem cells. I said I saw no reason why we would have to rely on one form of research in order for medical advances to continue for pre-term babies. Stop intentionally muddying the issue.

Quote:

oh, i didn't realize they were doing in-vitro, etc since the dawn of time. my bad.




Again, intentional muddying of the issue. In-vitro is an advance of a process that happens naturally. If you want to call it "playing God," that is your right. Most people don't agree. You'll have to explain it in simple terms if I'm going to understand how the fact that we are able to help people have children using this technology means that it is then ok to do anything we want to pre-born humans.

Quote:

would we be "killing" as many embryoes for stem cells as you think we would be?




Did you forget an "if" in this question? It makes no sense to me.

Quote:

this is about drawing lines, j. why 18 for legal emancipation? why are we giving living being protections for a cluster of cells?




Sure it is about drawing lines. My line says it is not morally acceptable to starve a newborn, it's not morally acceptable to puncture the skull of an eight-month-old fetus and suck its brains out, and it's not acceptable to terminate the life of a pre-born human for convenience. Your line is apparently willing to accept some of those.

Quote:

why does the life of the actual living person not matter?




(I suppose that you mean the life of the mother, since both mother and child are living?) I've never said that termination is not a morally acceptable option if the mother's life is in danger.

Quote:

both "play God"




If you don't see a difference, that is your issue. I guess having sex plays God, taking chlomid plays God, wearing boxers instead of briefs plays God...

Quote:

"i think, therefore i am". get it now?...i think we are a bit more than just a blob of cells. we think. we are autonomous.





I guess your point is that only "intelligent" humans deserve protection. Your favorite supreme court decision is in trouble, then.

Quote:

the female's existing human life get's no consideration? she has an obligation to possibly have a child because she had sex? shall we criminalize out-of-wedlock sex?




We've been over this. You think no responsibility should attach to sexual activity. The pill has largely accomplished that. I believe that taking life to avoid that responsibility is immoral. You are free to disagree.

Quote:

sounds biblical to me.




Ron, this is your argument? Something sounds moral - better be against it!

Quote:

you would have it be made illegal destroy something you are giving living-being significance to. therefore, you are telling females that they MUST refrain from doing something; you are obligated by the state to do something. in other words, the state is telling individuals they MUST view their bodies in a specific way. the indians respected certain creatures and the land. we had no regard for their religious sensibilities. majority religious views are NOT relevant.




I give you a 0.2, and that's only for degree of difficulty.

Quote:

sanctity of life? sorry, that's religious.




That's sad. We'll have to overturn our murder statutes, too.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 03:31 PM

Quote:

If you want to call it "playing God," that is your right.



thanks. that was all i needed.

if you want to call a cluster of cells a human being, that is your right.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 03:38 PM

Quote:

My line says it is not morally acceptable to starve a newborn, it's not morally acceptable to puncture the skull of an eight-month-old fetus and suck its brains out, and it's not acceptable to terminate the life of a pre-born human for convenience. Your line is apparently willing to accept some of those



i sort of accept only one of those. i am willing to impede the chemical processes of a cluster of cells that happen to contain human DNA.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 03:40 PM

i don't see how allowing abortions for rape victims respects the sanctity of life. an exception to the rule? is this a line you drew?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 04:19 PM

Quote:

i don't see how allowing abortions for rape victims respects the sanctity of life. an exception to the rule? is this a line you drew?




When did I say that it was moral to abort a child conceived due to a rape? At any rate, this accounts for less than 1% of US abortions.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 04:21 PM

Quote:

i am willing to impede the chemical processes of a cluster of cells that happen to contain human DNA.




Look into your soul, Ron. You know that these beliefs are empty - they are broken cisterns that cannot hold water. You are placing pleasure before responsibility, excitement before commitment.

The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart
..."

"Do what is just and right.
Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed.
Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow,
and do not shed innocent blood in this place."
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 05:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i don't see how allowing abortions for rape victims respects the sanctity of life. an exception to the rule? is this a line you drew?




When did I say that it was moral to abort a child conceived due to a rape? At any rate, this accounts for less than 1% of US abortions.



was a line drawn? wasn't this line a compromise? should the % matter?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 05:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i am willing to impede the chemical processes of a cluster of cells that happen to contain human DNA.




Look into your soul, Ron. You know that these beliefs are empty - they are broken cisterns that cannot hold water. You are placing pleasure before responsibility, excitement before commitment.

The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart
..."

"Do what is just and right.
Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed.
Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow,
and do not shed innocent blood in this place."



what is in your or my soul doesn't matter here.

metaphysics is a prohibited class of government regulation.

(btw, what blood is being shed, literalist?)
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 05:55 PM

Quote:

was a line drawn? wasn't this line a compromise?




By whom?

Quote:

should the % matter?




Only when setting the priority with which you deal with the problem. Our #1 problem is abortion for birth control, not instances rape, or incest, or when the life of the mother is endangered.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 05:58 PM

Quote:

what is in your or my soul doesn't matter here.




It may not matter to you now. I pray that you will, soon.

Quote:

metaphysics is a prohibited class of government regulation.




?

Quote:

(btw, what blood is being shed, literalist?)




I have never opposed the use of metaphors. If you can't understand them, it is your failing.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 06:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

was a line drawn? wasn't this line a compromise?




By whom?

Quote:

should the % matter?




Only when setting the priority with which you deal with the problem. Our #1 problem is abortion for birth control, not instances rape, or incest, or when the life of the mother is endangered.



does it matter whom it was drawn by? this is political, no?

but your justification, within the issue, is sanctity of life. are you calling for a "take back" on the exception?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 06:06 PM

Quote:

does it matter whom it was drawn by? this is political, no?

but your justification, within the issue, is sanctity of life. are you calling for a "take back" on the exception?




What are you talking about, Ron? I said that it was not moral to abort a child because they were conceived during a rape. Who compromised? Who is taking anything back?

At the same time, I said that this wasn't the most pressing question. You like to draw attention to it, fine. But it is not the big issue.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 06:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

what is in your or my soul doesn't matter here.




It may not matter to you now. I pray that you will, soon.

Quote:

metaphysics is a prohibited class of government regulation.




?

Quote:

(btw, what blood is being shed, literalist?)




I have never opposed the use of metaphors. If you can't understand them, it is your failing.



oh, so we SHOULD have a caliphate or a theocracy.

um, j, does the bible on give metaphors when you decide it is? if not, may i have a copy of the key so i can figure it out?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 06:12 PM

Quote:

oh, so we SHOULD have a caliphate or a theocracy.




Ron, I understand that you don't like participating in a democracy with people who have moral standards. Sometimes, you have to just put on your big boy pants and deal with it.

Quote:

um, j, does the bible on give metaphors when you decide it is?




You are absolutely incomprehensible sometimes.

Quote:

if not, may i have a copy of the key so i can figure it out?




Let me give you a clue, Mr. Pound of Flesh: to obey is better than sacrifice.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 06:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

does it matter whom it was drawn by? this is political, no?

but your justification, within the issue, is sanctity of life. are you calling for a "take back" on the exception?




What are you talking about, Ron? I said that it was not moral to abort a child because they were conceived during a rape. Who compromised? Who is taking anything back?

At the same time, I said that this wasn't the most pressing question. You like to draw attention to it, fine. But it is not the big issue.



who? people on your side of the philosophical issue. they were weak i guess. they should've realized somebody would eventually call them on shades of gray.

pressing issues? advances in medicine; freedom of choice; freedom from ruined expectations in life because of having to keep a child (unless adopted) etc. as far as this philosophical issue goes, is the issue respecting the sanctity of life or is it not?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 06:19 PM

Quote:

who? people on your side of the philosophical issue.




If you have a problem with their logic, take it up with them.

Quote:

pressing issues? advances in medicine; freedom of choice; freedom from ruined expectations in life because of having to keep a child (unless adopted) etc.




Those are all fine concerns, however, none trump the right to life. All can be accomplished while respecting life.

Quote:

as far as this philosophical issue goes, is the issue respecting the sanctity of life or is it not?




Sanctity of life, not convenience of life.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 06:19 PM

Quote:

Ron, I understand that you don't like participating in a democracy with people who have moral standards. Sometimes, you have to just put on your big boy pants and deal with it.



j, i understand that you don't like it that individual rights trump majority opinion. i also understand that some people do not find this as amoral as you do.

to obey is better than sacrifice. the bible is now codified as 50CFR123
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 06:26 PM

Quote:

If you have a problem with their logic, take it up with them.



why? they are the ones who apparently have destroyed the logic of your pov.

Quote:

Those are all fine concerns, however, none trump the right to life. All can be accomplished while respecting life.



the only disrespect is that people are not required to ascribe to your theology. show me how life is being disrespected from a secular pov.

Quote:

Sanctity of life, not convenience of life.



once again codifying the Bible for our citizens.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 06:37 PM

Whatever, Ron.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 06:40 PM

Quote:

to obey is better than sacrifice. the bible is now codified




You're not very good with clues.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 06:43 PM

Quote:

j, i understand that you don't like it that individual rights trump majority opinion.




The right to life, for example?
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 08:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

To all those taking these black and white stands on abortion... I don't know if any of you have teenage daughters, but imagine this scenario...

Your 15 year old daughter comes home and tells you she's pregnant -- happened at a party and she doesn't even know who the guy is. She's your youngest and your plans were that she attend college while you and your wife retire to your beach house. So now you say, "don't worry honey, have the baby and your mother and I will put our lives on permanent hold so we can raise your's and whatshisname's baby while you finish school and figure out your life. Because after all abortion would be taking a life and it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to do.

Easy to say -- not so easy to do.



No, but I think it would be easier to say to her, "Your mother and I will support you and help you through this pregnancy. Then for the best interest of you, the baby, and our entire family, we should provide that baby for adoption into a loving, committed, two-parent (mother and father, not mother and mother or father and father) household. Abortion should not be an option for you because abortion is the wrong thing in the eyes of God."

And for what it's worth, I have two daughters, 17 and 23.




That's fine for your daughters, but if I had daughters I certainly wouldn't want them getting that message.




We raised out son with the message that abortion is wrong. It should not be a form of birth control. We just don't agree with it. Our opinion, nothing more, nothing less. However, I would not outlaw abortion. This pill I think is a good thing. If my daughter got pregnant, I would support her in any and every way I could. But if she was date raped, I would want this available to her.


It always was available to her (by prescription). Now she can buy it at Joe's Liquor with her Olde English and Newports.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 08:23 PM

Only if she's 18, Swimware. Otherwise, her boyfriend will have to pick it up for her.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 11:26 PM

Quote:

It always was available to her (by prescription). Now she can buy it at Joe's Liquor with her Olde English and Newports.



honey, do you think we should roll over our 401k?

better ask the doctor.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/25/06 11:32 PM

Quote:

Ron, I understand that you don't like participating in a democracy with people who have moral standards. Sometimes, you have to just put on your big boy pants and deal with it.



Quote:

Let me give you a clue, Mr. Pound of Flesh: to obey is better than sacrifice.




I'm hijacking the topic for a brief moment...

-5-, after reading several of your posts across this forum, you don't have to insult posters in order to make a point. Such actions are not Christ-like and as a fellow Christian, that is troubling and disappointing. It makes you less credible from a Christian P.O.V.
-LCN
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/26/06 01:54 AM

In -5-'s defense. He's not the only only one in here who claims to be a Christian while acting terribly.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/26/06 02:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Ron, I understand that you don't like participating in a democracy with people who have moral standards. Sometimes, you have to just put on your big boy pants and deal with it.



Quote:

Let me give you a clue, Mr. Pound of Flesh: to obey is better than sacrifice.




I'm hijacking the topic for a brief moment...

-5-, after reading several of your posts across this forum, you don't have to insult posters in order to make a point. Such actions are not Christ-like and as a fellow Christian, that is troubling and disappointing. It makes you less credible from a Christian P.O.V.
-LCN



and i apologize if i have offended anybody. i am not anti-religion. for me it is all about fair, reasoned compromise.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: FDA Approval - 08/28/06 12:18 AM

Quote:

Quote:

j, i understand that you don't like it that individual rights trump majority opinion.




The right to life, for example?




Of course the Constitutional right to life trumps majority opinion. Unfortunately for your argument, that right applies to "persons" under the Constitution. Since fetuses are not and have never been "persons" for constitutional purposes, that right doesn't apply to this argument.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: FDA Approval - 08/28/06 01:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

big boy pants



Quote:

Mr. Pound of Flesh




you don't have to insult posters in order to make a point. Such actions are not Christ-like and as a fellow Christian, that is troubling and disappointing.




Nothing I've said to Ron was mean-spirited. It was blunt. Jesus was blunt, too.

I'm sure Ron can handle the fairly innocuous examples cited above.