Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm

Posted By: Anonymous

Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 03:54 PM

Venezue la Dictator Hugo Chavez has vowed to bring down the U.S. government. Chavez, president of Venezuela, told a TV audience: "Enough of imperialist aggression; we must tell the world: down with the U.S. empire. We have to bury imperialism this century."

The guest on his television program, beamed across Venezuela, was Cindy Sheehan, the antiwar activist. Chavez recently had as his guest Harry Belafonte, who called President Bush "the greatest terrorist in the world."

Chavez is pushing a socialist revolution and has a close alliance with Cuban dictator Fidel Castro.

Regardless of your feelings about the war in Iraq, the issue here is that we have a socialist dictator vowing to bring down the government of the U.S. And he is using our money to achieve his goal!

The Venezuela government, run by dictator Chavez, is the sole owner of Citgo gas company Sales of products at Citgo stations send money back to Chavez to help him in his vow to bring down our government.

Take Action

Please decide that you will not be shopping at a Citgo station. Why should U.S. citizens who love freedom be financing a dictator who has vowed to take down our government?
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 05:29 PM

While there is some truth to this, it seems you are simply posting an email you got, word for word, and not providing any individual thought. This is OLD news, by the way, and not entirely true.
Posted By: Dan Persfull

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 05:33 PM

Plus Citgo sponsors the B.A.S.S. fishing tour. So they can't be all bad.

I've seen variations of this email with other petroleum companies named in them.
Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 05:58 PM

Ahhhh, a tankful of Citgo and a nice Cuban cigar....
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 06:03 PM

Quote:

This is OLD news, by the way, and not entirely true.




Which part is not true?
Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 06:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This is OLD news, by the way, and not entirely true.




Which part is not true?




How about the "to help him in his vow to bring down our government" part. Ok, so Chavez get profits from Citgo. Do you really think he has any chance of bringing down the U.S.? If he wanted to disrupt our oil supply by shutting down Citgo's production, he already would have. These are lunatic rantings or just pure rhetoric to stir up his people. (you right-wingers should recognize that tactic).

If Chavez really wanted to disrupt the oil market, he could cut Citgo's prices in half and force the other oil companies to lose some of their huge profits trying to compete.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 06:13 PM

You don't think he really wants to cause harm to our government? I should know better than to try to convince you and Stephen that any latin leftist is anything less than a demigod.
Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 06:22 PM

Quote:

You don't think he really wants to cause harm to our government? I should know better than to try to convince you and Stephen that any latin leftist is anything less than a demigod.




I'm sure he'd love to, just as I'm sure Castro would love to, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. These guys may hate the U.S., but they love their little empires more -- they're not dumb enough or dedicated enough to a cause to lose the good thing they got.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 06:35 PM

Sorry, but when he is allying himself with the mullahs in Tehran, it is beyond mere rhetoric.
Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 06:41 PM

Maybe if our leaders were willing to talk to our enemies, we could sort out how much is rhetoric and how much is a genuine threat.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 06:42 PM

Maybe if our enemies were convinced that the entire United States stood against them, they would be far less bold.
Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 06:55 PM

The difference is that some generalize as to who the enemy is (e.g., fascist fundamentalist muslims), and others want to know exactly what we're fighting.

Wouldn't you agree that it's easier to fight an enemy when you know who that enemy is, rather than trying to fight some nebulous evil force.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 06:56 PM

Easier? Yes. Unfortunately, we don't get to choose our enemies.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 06:56 PM

Quote:

Sorry, but when he is allying himself with the mullahs in Tehran, it is beyond mere rhetoric.




Wait a second, this is different from our wanting alliances with the nations in his own geographic area to go after his form of government how?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 06:57 PM

Morally equivalent, are we?
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 06:58 PM

Quote:

Morally equivalent, are we?




Considering his comments were in response to a certain preacherman saying he thought the US should assassinate Chavez? Uhmn yeah.

Considering we have funding insurgents in his neighborhood since at least the 80s? Uhmn yeah.
Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 07:00 PM

Quote:

Easier? Yes. Unfortunately, we don't get to choose our enemies.




I didn't say choose them, I said figure out who they are.

This isn't some old western where we just shoot at everyone wearing a black hat.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 07:01 PM

perhaps we just shoot at everyone who vows to kill americans
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 07:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Morally equivalent, are we?




Considering his comments were in response to a certain preacherman saying he thought the US should assassinate Chavez? Uhmn yeah.

Considering we have funding insurgents in his neighborhood since at least the 80s? Uhmn yeah.




Are you out of your mind?! He is justified in allying with a terrorist regime because a preacher (who's never been elected to anything) in the US said something mean? Because we funded those who opposed communist thugs, it is ok for him to ally with a regime that wants to eradicate Israel and the US?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 07:32 PM

Your complaint was:

Quote:

some generalize as to who the enemy is (e.g., fascist fundamentalist muslims), and others want to know exactly what we're fighting. Wouldn't you agree that it's easier to fight an enemy when you know who that enemy is, rather than trying to fight some nebulous evil force.




I said that unfortunately, we didn't have the luxury of choosing an easily-defined enemy.

Quote:

I didn't say choose them, I said figure out who they are.




I didn't say that you said we could choose them. I said we can't - my point is that they are who they are. We can't pick a convenient enemy. It's not simply a matter of identifying them as "this group of people who are geographically located within ______ and wear a particular flag on their uniforms." They don't operate that way.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 07:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Morally equivalent, are we?




Considering his comments were in response to a certain preacherman saying he thought the US should assassinate Chavez? Uhmn yeah.

Considering we have funding insurgents in his neighborhood since at least the 80s? Uhmn yeah.




Are you out of your mind?! He is justified in allying with a terrorist regime because a preacher (who's never been elected to anything) in the US said something mean? Because we funded those who opposed communist thugs, it is ok for him to ally with a regime that wants to eradicate Israel and the US?




He is no less justified in allying himself with our enemies than we are in allying with his. Do I like his friends? No. Are we any better with some of our "allies"? Has he done anything FRANCE has not done in this case? After all, they were opposed to an invasion of Iraq because it meant a large dent in their pocketbook if they couldn't keep selling the genocidal maniac weapons.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 07:53 PM

Quote:

He is no less justified in allying himself with our enemies than we are in allying with his.




All else equal, yes he would be. All else is not equal.

Quote:

Has he done anything FRANCE has not done in this case?




I'm no fan of the French, but they aren't calling for the overthrow of our government.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 08:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

He is no less justified in allying himself with our enemies than we are in allying with his.




All else equal, yes he would be. All else is not equal.

Quote:

Has he done anything FRANCE has not done in this case?




I'm no fan of the French, but they aren't calling for the overthrow of our government.




But aren't we calling for the overthrow of HIS government?

I'm not saying the man shouldn't be out of power, but I am saying he has a point when what he has actually said is not that he wants to overthrow the US government, but that he will not allow us to come to his backyard without consequences.
Posted By: HappyGilmore

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 08:28 PM

Quote:

This isn't some old western where we just shoot at everyone wearing a black hat.






Yeah, Shane wore black...
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 08:33 PM

Quote:

But aren't we calling for the overthrow of HIS government?...he has a point...




You're not really understanding the problem with moral equivalence, are you? Let me try to explain: The US Army invaded Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany fought back. This does not mean that the actions of Nazi Germany and the US Army were morally equivalent.

Similarly, the US has advocated for a different government than this dicatator's in Venezuala, and is supporting democratic governments that will oppose him. The dictator has advocated for an overthrow of the US government, and is allying himself with other dictators that share his goal. That does not mean that the actions of the US and Chavez are morally equivalent.
Posted By: RandomName

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 08:33 PM

Mary Anastasia O'Grady writes about Chavez just about every Friday in the WSJ (and the Economist covers his antics as well). I'd recommend that interested parties review her columns. Here's one:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/wsj/?id=110007819
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 10:31 PM

Quote:

You're not really understanding the problem with moral equivalence, are you? Let me try to explain: The US Army invaded Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany fought back. This does not mean that the actions of Nazi Germany and the US Army were morally equivalent.

Similarly, the US has advocated for a different government than this dicatator's in Venezuala, and is supporting democratic governments that will oppose him. The dictator has advocated for an overthrow of the US government, and is allying himself with other dictators that share his goal. That does not mean that the actions of the US and Chavez are morally equivalent.





excellent illustration of your point. i wonder what institution(s) failed us that we have Americans who cannot make these distinctions? it troubles me for our future if we cannot agree on what's right and what's wrong. it's really not so difficult.

ok, start piling on my a$$.
Posted By: Blade Scrapper

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/25/06 10:51 PM

Quote:



ok, start piling on my a$$.



I think this belongs in the gay marriage thread.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/26/06 05:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

But aren't we calling for the overthrow of HIS government?...he has a point...




You're not really understanding the problem with moral equivalence, are you? Let me try to explain: The US Army invaded Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany fought back. This does not mean that the actions of Nazi Germany and the US Army were morally equivalent.

Similarly, the US has advocated for a different government than this dicatator's in Venezuala, and is supporting democratic governments that will oppose him. The dictator has advocated for an overthrow of the US government, and is allying himself with other dictators that share his goal. That does not mean that the actions of the US and Chavez are morally equivalent.




What makes our form of government morally superior to a dictatorship? It isn't as if Chavez, unlike Saddam, is a genocidal maniac who is being evil to his people.
Posted By: The Incredible ComplyGuy

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 02:03 AM

Quote:

...genocidal maniac who is being evil to his people.




GWB also fits this description.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 02:28 AM

Really? Genocidal? I'd be interested in the text of the speech wherein the "final solution" regarding the subhuman _____ was discussed. Can you supply this? Where are the SS? the Brownshirts? You use very charged language, but I wonder if you can back it up with evidence. Where are the stormtroopers in the streets? You do know that storm troopers carried a hint of fear before Star Wars don't you? Can you point to any such activity? The old standby will work, people being dragged, kicking and screaming from their houses, never to be seen again. I look forward to the information.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 01:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

...genocidal maniac who is being evil to his people.




GWB also fits this description.




Pardon me? In what way has GWB been genocidal? In what way has he acted against his people?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 01:25 PM

Quote:

What makes our form of government morally superior to a dictatorship?




Nevermind, Michael. If you don't have an inherent understanding of this, I'm not going to be able to convince you of anything.

Anon asked ComplyGuy:

Quote:

You do know that storm troopers carried a hint of fear before Star Wars don't you?




I'm betting "no", based on the command of history he's displayed elsewhere.
Posted By: HappyGilmore

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 01:33 PM

when you're number 1, everyone always wants to take you down
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 01:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What makes our form of government morally superior to a dictatorship?




Nevermind, Michael. If you don't have an inherent understanding of this, I'm not going to be able to convince you of anything.




I'm asking you to explain why you think it is MORALLY superior. There can be benevolent dictatorships. There can even be benevolent FACIST dictatorships. Ask anyone who lived under Franco if they would have traded what he did for Spain for democracy. They will tell you emphatically NO!
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 02:31 PM

The Generalissimo wasn't very "benevolent" towards the unions. Or those who didn't want to follow the teachings of the Church.

The fact is, the only reason people remember Franco fondly is because he didn't get heavily involved in WWII. Otherwise, he would stand just as condemned by history as does Mussolini.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 03:07 PM

Quote:

The Generalissimo wasn't very "benevolent" towards the unions. Or those who didn't want to follow the teachings of the Church.

The fact is, the only reason people remember Franco fondly is because he didn't get heavily involved in WWII. Otherwise, he would stand just as condemned by history as does Mussolini.




Actually, during a period of world war, he kept the streets of the nation safe. He brought them out of a horrible recession, and unified the nation under one language. Keeping a nation in the heart of a continent overrun by war safe is in itself something to be admired.

As far as being benevolent to unions, I personally think our government shouldn't be quite so benevolent to the unions. Companies that require their employees to spend part of their pay to join a union isn't free enterprise. Unions that kill small businesses aren't benevolent. Unions that rob pension plans aren't benevolent.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 03:30 PM

Ah, maybe a little fascism would do our country good, eh Michael?
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 04:19 PM

Quote:

Ah, maybe a little fascism would do our country good, eh Michael?




All I am saying is that there is no moral superiority to a form of government, only in it's leaders. I'm not saying that all facist governments are good. I'm not saying all monarchs are good or bad, but there have been some who ruled as nobles and did good things for their people. Democracy is not in and of itself morally superior to any other government.
Posted By: Patriot

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 04:44 PM

Quote:

Democracy is not in and of itself morally superior to any other government.





In a democracy (or more accurately) a representive republic, power is derived from the consent of the governed. That fosters freedom and liberty, or at least creates an environment where freedom and liberty will most likely and likely does thrive. That makes it a morally superior form of government. Sorry. Dictators and monarchs get/took their power by other means. Too bad you missed school the day these things were taught.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 05:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Democracy is not in and of itself morally superior to any other government.





In a democracy (or more accurately) a representive republic, power is derived from the consent of the governed. That fosters freedom and liberty, or at least creates an environment where freedom and liberty will most likely and likely does thrive. That makes it a morally superior form of government. Sorry. Dictators and monarchs get/took their power by other means. Too bad you missed school the day these things were taught.




I didn't miss school at all. Perhaps you simply missed ethics classes where what morality was is defined.
The form of government does not give more freedom or liberty. It gives an impression of more freedom and liberty, but the actual freedom depends on the leaders. Are not many Americans up in arms right now because they believe their freedoms are being impossed upon? Have we not seen in the past that our elections are really not giving us the consent of the majority of the citizens, but rather a minority? How many times has the winner of the popular vote not ended up the person who wins an election? How often have our leaders said they were going to do one thing, and then not done what we elected them to do?

Also, any leader maintains power with the consent of the governed, whether it is a monarchy, an oligarchy, a republic, or a democracy. Ask Caesar if he had the consent of the governed. Ask King George. Ask many leaders who took power in ways other than our government if they need the consent of the governed.

One other thing, you say our form of government is morally superior because of freedoms and liberties. Are you so sure you want to stand on the idea that freedom and liberty are an absolute good?
Posted By: Erl of Baltimore

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 05:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Democracy is not in and of itself morally superior to any other government.





In a democracy (or more accurately) a representive republic, power is derived from the consent of the governed. That fosters freedom and liberty, or at least creates an environment where freedom and liberty will most likely and likely does thrive. That makes it a morally superior form of government. Sorry. Dictators and monarchs get/took their power by other means. Too bad you missed school the day these things were taught.




I didn't miss school at all. Perhaps you simply missed ethics classes where what morality was is defined.
The form of government does not give more freedom or liberty. It gives an impression of more freedom and liberty, but the actual freedom depends on the leaders. Are not many Americans up in arms right now because they believe their freedoms are being impossed upon? Have we not seen in the past that our elections are really not giving us the consent of the majority of the citizens, but rather a minority? How many times has the winner of the popular vote not ended up the person who wins an election? How often have our leaders said they were going to do one thing, and then not done what we elected them to do?

Also, any leader maintains power with the consent of the governed, whether it is a monarchy, an oligarchy, a republic, or a democracy. Ask Caesar if he had the consent of the governed. Ask King George. Ask many leaders who took power in ways other than our government if they need the consent of the governed.

One other thing, you say our form of government is morally superior because of freedoms and liberties. Are you so sure you want to stand on the idea that freedom and liberty are an absolute good?


I usually stay out of these discussions, but I feel the need to respond. Do you seriously believe any of the monarchies/theocracies/dictatorships you mentioned were benevolent in nature. I will grant this: the most efficient form of government is a benevolent dictatorship. The inherent problem with a dictatorship is since it was not convened by the consent of the governed, and you have to agree the majority of dictatorships (now and then) were NOT benevolent. Dictators tend to follow the doctrine of: Power Corrupts, Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. So instead of spending time being benevolent to its citizens it spends more time and resources retaining control over the citizens. They accomplish this a myriad of ways, generally it revolves around instilling fear in the citizenry or outright torture, rape, murder. Our form of government is morally superior to a dictatorship because of the checks and balances built into the system which minimize the risk of the above occurring to the citizenry. Do some of us take it for granted? Absolutely
That's why every day our citizens should kiss the ground they walk on and thank whomever they believe in for the luck of belonging to a country where they don't live each day in constant fear of reprisals, against them or family members, for speaking their minds.
Whose fault is it that our leaders are elected by the minority? Ours alone
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 06:06 PM

Was Franco benevolent in nature? Absolutely. Everything he did, he did for the people of Spain. He took power because someone needed to. He did everything he could to improve the safety of Spain in a crisis. When he knew it was time for someone else to take over, he worked to make sure someone else who would be a benevolent leader took over.

Have Kings been good people? Certainly. Are you saying Constantine wasn't benevolent in his later years?

Are you saying Sui Wen Ti, who unified China did so for his own personal gain alone?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 06:35 PM

Quote:

Have we not seen in the past that our elections are really not giving us the consent of the majority of the citizens, but rather a minority? How many times has the winner of the popular vote not ended up the person who wins an election?




Michael has moved to the radical left. Someone must have turned him on to the dem underground. To answer his question, my calculations show that in approximately 0.01% of federal elections, the winner of the popular vote was not elected.

Quote:

Are you so sure you want to stand on the idea that freedom and liberty are an absolute good?




Good grief...
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 06:41 PM

Quote:

Everything he did, he did for the people of Spain.




Everything I Do (I Do It for the People of Spain)
From the Soudtrack to Generalissimo: Prince of Dictators

I'd censor for you,
Declare myself king for you,
Cooperate with Nazis for you,
Make others die for you...

You know it's true,
Everything I do,
O-oh, I do it for you.
Posted By: straw

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 06:59 PM

Actually much of what Micheal is saying makes sense for him to believe. He belives in parternilism, and in a belief in an authority over all others. Michael does not believe in moral relativism, because there are universal moral truths that man cannot attain. Therefore, men are inherently immoral and no form of government can be moral.

However, some men come closer to this universal morality and they should be empowered to guide/parent those who are further away from it.

Freedom and democracy are seen by Michael as anarchy, leading to mob rule.

Does that sum it up well enough Michael or have I misstated it.
Posted By: doubledown21

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 08:05 PM

My biggest problem with this thread is this: Chavez was ELECTED - thus he is NOT, I repeat NOT, a dictator. He is up for election again later this year I believe. He is hugely popular with his own people, and just because he has taken an anti-US stance, we have labeled him a dictator. Let's not stradle the fence on this one, if we are going to support democracy as per the Bush doctrine, we are going to have to accept that sometimes the democratically elected leaders are not going to be our allies (see Hamas in Palestine)
Posted By: MichelleDawn

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 08:08 PM

Quote:

My biggest problem with this thread is this: Chavez was ELECTED - thus he is NOT, I repeat NOT, a dictator. He is up for election again later this year I believe. He is hugely popular with his own people, and just because he has taken an anti-US stance, we have labeled him a dictator. Let's not stradle the fence on this one, if we are going to support democracy as per the Bush doctrine, we are going to have to accept that sometimes the democratically elected leaders are not going to be our allies (see Hamas in Palestine)




Very well said. I don't think most people really care about democracy. They care about other nations kissing US butt.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 08:42 PM

Quote:

My biggest problem with this thread is this: Chavez was ELECTED - thus he is NOT, I repeat NOT, a dictator.




Mr. Chavez was indeed elected, several years after leading a failed coup. After being elected, he dissolved the legislature, declared a judicial state of emergency (giving him the unabridged power to remove any judge), established rule by Presidential decree, and took control of the media.

The same lefties who think that it is undemocratic to replace Sandra Day O'Connor with someone not of the exact same ideological stripe find Chavez's Venezuala to be an enlightened democracy. Big surprise.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 08:44 PM

I almost forgot: a "referendum" at which the legitimacy of all these action was supposedly blessed by the people of Venezuala had all the markings of a Ukranian-style election theft, but, predictably, every dictator's favorite ex-President gave it his blessing.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 08:58 PM

Quote:

Actually much of what Micheal is saying makes sense for him to believe. He belives in parternilism, and in a belief in an authority over all others. Michael does not believe in moral relativism, because there are universal moral truths that man cannot attain. Therefore, men are inherently immoral and no form of government can be moral.

However, some men come closer to this universal morality and they should be empowered to guide/parent those who are further away from it.

Freedom and democracy are seen by Michael as anarchy, leading to mob rule.

Does that sum it up well enough Michael or have I misstated it.




NO, you have pretty much mistated most of it. Do I believe in paternalism? Yes, to some extent it is necessary. There are too many ignorant, immoral, and/or uneducated people in this world to allow them to do whatever they want without someone making sure they do what is right. Not on every issue, but some issues are too important to be left to chance.

I do not believe in moral relativism, you are right on that account. However, I believe that the absolute moral truths can be attained by man. Are we always perfect? No. Do we have the capacity to understand right from wrong and make the correct choices? Absolutely. Do some men have a better understanding of what is right and wrong and act appropriately? Absolutely. Unless of course you think Mother Theresa and Jeffery Dalmer were equally able to understand right from wrong and act upon it, you cannot help but agree with this statement.

A form of government, in and of itself, has no moral standing. The people who run the government determine the ethics of that government. A king can be upright and just, righteous and good, or he can be in it for power and his own desires. The same can be said for a government elected official. He can be in it as a career in order to get kickbacks and donations and to sit on the hill and vote whichever way the wind blows to keep himself in power, or he can stand up and say This is who I am, and this is how I will vote, and stick to it, answering to his constituents.

Is absolute freedom good? Once again, I say no way. Some freedoms are good, but absolute freedom and liberty is not. There must be checks upon that freedom if good is to be maintained, and the security of the people maintained. Otherwise, John Wayne Gacy can do whatever he wants in the privacy of his own basement.
Posted By: doubledown21

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 09:29 PM

Quote:

I almost forgot: a "referendum" at which the legitimacy of all these action was supposedly blessed by the people of Venezuala had all the markings of a Ukranian-style election theft, but, predictably, every dictator's favorite ex-President gave it his blessing.




I'm not disagreeing that Chavez has done some un-democratic things, but he has essentially eliminated himself as a dictator by enforcing a two-term limit on presidential terms.

Also I would be interested to read some sources about the fraudulent referendum because everything I've read is counter to this. I doubt very much it could be as blatant as the Ukrainian elections of 2004. Take it from someone who stood on the square in Kyiv and marched in the demonstrations, that was blatant. A blind man could see the fraud there. If this is so obvious, why is it not better documented?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 10:37 PM

Quote:

Also I would be interested to read some sources about the fraudulent referendum because everything I've read is counter to this.




What have you read other than the "Carter Center" blessing and the media reports based on it? Try this: http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005586 as a starter.

Quote:

he has essentially eliminated himself as a dictator by enforcing a two-term limit on presidential terms




Enforcing, or promising?
Posted By: straw

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 10:38 PM

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Actually much of what Micheal is saying makes sense for him to believe. He belives in parternilism, and in a belief in an authority over all others. Michael does not believe in moral relativism, because there are universal moral truths that man cannot attain. Therefore, men are inherently immoral and no form of government can be moral.

However, some men come closer to this universal morality and they should be empowered to guide/parent those who are further away from it.

Freedom and democracy are seen by Michael as anarchy, leading to mob rule.

Does that sum it up well enough Michael or have I misstated it.




NO, you have pretty much mistated most of it. Do I believe in paternalism? Yes, to some extent it is necessary. There are too many ignorant, immoral, and/or uneducated people in this world to allow them to do whatever they want without someone making sure they do what is right. Not on every issue, but some issues are too important to be left to chance.

I do not believe in moral relativism, you are right on that account. However, I believe that the absolute moral truths can be attained by man. Are we always perfect? No. Do we have the capacity to understand right from wrong and make the correct choices? Absolutely. Do some men have a better understanding of what is right and wrong and act appropriately? Absolutely. Unless of course you think Mother Theresa and Jeffery Dalmer were equally able to understand right from wrong and act upon it, you cannot help but agree with this statement.

A form of government, in and of itself, has no moral standing. The people who run the government determine the ethics of that government. A king can be upright and just, righteous and good, or he can be in it for power and his own desires. The same can be said for a government elected official. He can be in it as a career in order to get kickbacks and donations and to sit on the hill and vote whichever way the wind blows to keep himself in power, or he can stand up and say This is who I am, and this is how I will vote, and stick to it, answering to his constituents.

Is absolute freedom good? Once again, I say no way. Some freedoms are good, but absolute freedom and liberty is not. There must be checks upon that freedom if good is to be maintained, and the security of the people maintained. Otherwise, John Wayne Gacy can do whatever he wants in the privacy of his own basement.




Actually it sounds like you agree with most of my characterization.

Notice how you said the people who run the government. There is a big difference between a government that derives its power from the people and a government that imposes its power on it. The moral justification for government action is highest for a government representing the people vs. a government imposing its will on its people. This is where morality and politics intersect.

Would you say that generally, freedom is better than totalitarianism? Democracy better than dicatorship?

Notice how I asked because while politcal systems may not be moral principles, political systems generally reflect the morality/immorality of its citizens. The politcal system democracy/dictatorship is a corrolary to the society's moral principles (freedom/individual rights vs. totalitarianism/statism).

I suggest you read some Locke, Hobbes, Descartes and de Tocquville. You might glean a new perspective on liberty/freedom/individualism vs. totalitarianism/paternalism.
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 11:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Actually much of what Micheal is saying makes sense for him to believe. He belives in parternilism, and in a belief in an authority over all others. Michael does not believe in moral relativism, because there are universal moral truths that man cannot attain. Therefore, men are inherently immoral and no form of government can be moral.

However, some men come closer to this universal morality and they should be empowered to guide/parent those who are further away from it.

Freedom and democracy are seen by Michael as anarchy, leading to mob rule.

Does that sum it up well enough Michael or have I misstated it.




NO, you have pretty much mistated most of it. Do I believe in paternalism? Yes, to some extent it is necessary. There are too many ignorant, immoral, and/or uneducated people in this world to allow them to do whatever they want without someone making sure they do what is right. Not on every issue, but some issues are too important to be left to chance.

I do not believe in moral relativism, you are right on that account. However, I believe that the absolute moral truths can be attained by man. Are we always perfect? No. Do we have the capacity to understand right from wrong and make the correct choices? Absolutely. Do some men have a better understanding of what is right and wrong and act appropriately? Absolutely. Unless of course you think Mother Theresa and Jeffery Dalmer were equally able to understand right from wrong and act upon it, you cannot help but agree with this statement.

A form of government, in and of itself, has no moral standing. The people who run the government determine the ethics of that government. A king can be upright and just, righteous and good, or he can be in it for power and his own desires. The same can be said for a government elected official. He can be in it as a career in order to get kickbacks and donations and to sit on the hill and vote whichever way the wind blows to keep himself in power, or he can stand up and say This is who I am, and this is how I will vote, and stick to it, answering to his constituents.

Is absolute freedom good? Once again, I say no way. Some freedoms are good, but absolute freedom and liberty is not. There must be checks upon that freedom if good is to be maintained, and the security of the people maintained. Otherwise, John Wayne Gacy can do whatever he wants in the privacy of his own basement.




Actually it sounds like you agree with most of my characterization.

Notice how you said the people who run the government. There is a big difference between a government that derives its power from the people and a government that imposes its power on it. The moral justification for government action is highest for a government representing the people vs. a government imposing its will on its people. This is where morality and politics intersect.

Would you say that generally, freedom is better than totalitarianism? Democracy better than dicatorship?

Notice how I asked because while politcal systems may not be moral principles, political systems generally reflect the morality/immorality of its citizens. The politcal system democracy/dictatorship is a corrolary to the society's moral principles (freedom/individual rights vs. totalitarianism/statism).

I suggest you read some Locke, Hobbes, Descartes and de Tocquville. You might glean a new perspective on liberty/freedom/individualism vs. totalitarianism/paternalism.




Straw,

I can assure you I have read most of these people, with the exception of duTocqueville. However, I am not convinced that ultimately absolute freedom is better than absolute paternalism. The best forms of government combine both. There should be some freedoms, however, there must be checks.
Posted By: straw

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/28/06 11:33 PM

How about we not deal with absolutes, since there are never any?

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/29/06 01:10 AM

Quote:

How about we not deal with absolutes, since there are never any?

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?




In general? A balance of both.
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/29/06 01:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?




In general? A balance of both.




Take some highly valued oil
Add some government-forced toil
One country, one man
Judges? He don't give a damn
Dictators are made of this

Don't forget those election things
Jimmy Carter to kiss his ring
The left says "schwing"
He's less legit than Xiaoping
Dictators are made of this...


Everybody sing!
Posted By: straw

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/29/06 02:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

How about we not deal with absolutes, since there are never any?

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?




In general? A balance of both.




And who would be the paternal entity in this combination?
Posted By: HappyGilmore

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/29/06 02:18 PM

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and unified the nation under one language




I'm sure the Basque's would disagree with you on that
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/29/06 04:07 PM

Then dissolve the lawmakers
Replace media with your fakers
Take out the unions, just for flavor
Spread your lucre everyday
See how the power stays
You’re so great at gaining Fidel’s favor…
Posted By: HappyGilmore

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/29/06 05:28 PM

Quote:

There are too many ignorant, immoral, and/or uneducated people in this world to allow them to do whatever they want without someone making sure they do what is right. Not on every issue, but some issues are too important to be left to chance.





So who decides who is ignorant, immoral, or uneducated? You? My Mother lives in a region of a Central American country where there is no "formal" education such as in the US. Many of them would be considered ignorant and uneducated by our standards, but I've been there 3 times, and they possess knowledge I'll never have. Strange logic there Michael, very strange. History has shown that when one group deems themselves above the rest, and tries to force their ways on them, the results aren't good.
Posted By: Erl of Baltimore

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/29/06 05:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?




In general? A balance of both.




Take some highly valued oil
Add some government-forced toil
One country, one man
Judges? He don't give a damn
Dictators are made of this

Don't forget those election things
Jimmy Carter to kiss his ring
The left says "schwing"
He's less legit than Xiaoping
Dictators are made of this...


Everybody sing!


Is this song sung to the tune of "Memories are made of this" by Dean Martin? Just wanted to know.
Posted By: RandomName

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/29/06 05:36 PM

Quote:

I'm not disagreeing that Chavez has done some un-democratic things, but he has essentially eliminated himself as a dictator by enforcing a two-term limit on presidential terms.




I thought he was recently intimating he planned to stay in power until 2026 or something like that?
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/29/06 06:59 PM

Quote:

Is this song sung to the tune of "Memories are made of this" by Dean Martin?




Hey, you're right, it would kind of go with that, wouldn't it...
Posted By: Jokerman

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/30/06 02:57 PM

Take some highly valued oil
Add some government-forced toil
One country, one man
Judges? He don't give a damn
Dictators are made of this

Don't forget those election things
Jimmy Carter to kiss his ring
The left says "schwing"
He's less legit than Xiaoping
Dictators are made of this

Then dissolve the lawmakers
Replace media with your fakers
Take out the unions, just for flavor
Spread your lucre everyday
See how the power stays
You’re so great at gaining Fidel’s favor…


Come on, people! I deserved several LOLs and at least one or two ROFLMAO.

Nevermind - Sweetpeas says I'm not witty...
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/30/06 03:27 PM

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Quote:

Quote:

How about we not deal with absolutes, since there are never any?

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?




In general? A balance of both.




And who would be the paternal entity in this combination?




That would depend entirely on the government, now wouldn't it?

Oh, and as far as the Basques, from over a dozen languages to one Quebecish holdout is pretty effective, now isn't it?
Posted By: Bengals Fan

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/30/06 03:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

There are too many ignorant, immoral, and/or uneducated people in this world to allow them to do whatever they want without someone making sure they do what is right. Not on every issue, but some issues are too important to be left to chance.





So who decides who is ignorant, immoral, or uneducated? You? My Mother lives in a region of a Central American country where there is no "formal" education such as in the US. Many of them would be considered ignorant and uneducated by our standards, but I've been there 3 times, and they possess knowledge I'll never have. Strange logic there Michael, very strange. History has shown that when one group deems themselves above the rest, and tries to force their ways on them, the results aren't good.




Did I say formal education is required? Seems to me many people lack the common sense necessary to govern themselves completely and have absolute freedom. Also, it is often the highly educated that end up the serial killers. My point stands that there must be a level of paternalism to prevent people from acting wrongly.
Posted By: straw

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/30/06 05:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

How about we not deal with absolutes, since there are never any?

Which is better? In general which is better, Freedom or paternalism?




In general? A balance of both.




And who would be the paternal entity in this combination?




That would depend entirely on the government, now wouldn't it?

Oh, and as far as the Basques, from over a dozen languages to one Quebecish holdout is pretty effective, now isn't it?




Just to be clear, you don't believe a government formed by the will of the people is morally superior to a government forced onto the people?

And that a benevolent dictatorship is better than a democracy?

As to the paternal entity, are you saying it matters not what that entity is i.e. Royal, Military, Fascist, Religious, so long as they are benevolent?

And since you seem to admire Franco, since he was malevolent to some, but not most, does benevolence count if benevolent to the majority?
Posted By: straw

Re: Venezuela Dictator Vows To Bring Down U.S. Governm - 08/30/06 05:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There are too many ignorant, immoral, and/or uneducated people in this world to allow them to do whatever they want without someone making sure they do what is right. Not on every issue, but some issues are too important to be left to chance.





So who decides who is ignorant, immoral, or uneducated? You? My Mother lives in a region of a Central American country where there is no "formal" education such as in the US. Many of them would be considered ignorant and uneducated by our standards, but I've been there 3 times, and they possess knowledge I'll never have. Strange logic there Michael, very strange. History has shown that when one group deems themselves above the rest, and tries to force their ways on them, the results aren't good.




Did I say formal education is required? Seems to me many people lack the common sense necessary to govern themselves completely and have absolute freedom. Also, it is often the highly educated that end up the serial killers. My point stands that there must be a level of paternalism to prevent people from acting wrongly .




And what is this based on? What the paternal entity says it is?