CTR question - cash withdrawals from business

Posted By: Madawaska

CTR question - cash withdrawals from business - 09/25/20 06:00 PM

If the authorized signer on 2 business accounts is withdrawing currency from each account that totals over $10,000, are the businesses listed on the CTR? - As Person on whose behalf transaction is conducted? for each of the businesses?

Am I reading too much into this? Currently we have the authorized signer as "conducting on own behalf" with the business account numbers listed.

Thanks.
Posted By: rlcarey

Re: CTR question - cash withdrawals from business - 09/25/20 06:02 PM

An individual cannot conduct on their own behalf when drawing money out of a business account. A cash withdrawal is on behalf of the business, not the authorized signer.
Posted By: Adam Witmer

Re: CTR question - cash withdrawals from business - 09/26/20 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by rlcarey
An individual cannot conduct on their own behalf when drawing money out of a business account. A cash withdrawal is on behalf of the business, not the authorized signer.


Randy: For clarification purposes and as I'm sure you know, it could be on their own behalf if the business account in reference is a sole proprietorship. If it's another type of legal entity (i.e. LLC, Inc. etc), I agree that it could not. From FinCEN's sole proprietorship guidance: "Consistent with the definition of “person” in the Bank Secrecy Act’s implementing regulations, a sole
proprietorship is not a separate legal person from its individual owner.
"

Originally Posted by Madawaska
If the authorized signer on 2 business accounts is withdrawing currency from each account that totals over $10,000, are the businesses listed on the CTR? - As Person on whose behalf transaction is conducted? for each of the businesses?


Yes, they would be included on the CTR, but how will depend on the type of entity. See FinCEN's Feb 6, 2020 guidance (that is technically still delayed): https://www.fincen.gov/sites/defaul.../2020-02-10/FinCEN_CTR_Form112_508_1.pdf
Posted By: rlcarey

Re: CTR question - cash withdrawals from business - 09/27/20 01:50 PM

No disagreement Adam. I guess I made an assumption when they used the term "authorized signer" it not being a sole proprietor account. Also, if there was a true authorized signer on a sole proprietor account, the transaction would still have been conduct on behalf of the individual that owns the account.
Posted By: John Burnett

Re: CTR question - cash withdrawals from business - 09/28/20 03:04 PM

Assuming we're not dealing with a sole proprietor, there is a difference between a business-purpose cash withdrawal and cashing a payroll check. You might consider an owner's "draw" like a payroll transactions, and it might be, but you would need more info to say so definitely, I think.
Posted By: Pepperjam_184515

Re: CTR question - cash withdrawals from business - 10/01/20 02:15 PM

Since we are on the same subject about cash withdrawals from a business.....

Customer came into the bank to deposit checks into an account (that has a business name on it - but no EIN or any other supporting docs - this was before CIP requirements.) I even checked our Secretary of State Website and there is no business by that name, even in the inactive file. I should also mention that on our system, it doesn't even has his SSN in the Tax Identification - it is just blank.

Customer took out over the $10,000.00 threshold from the 'less cash received' box. (Versus depositing all of it and writing a check for the cash.)

After talking with the teller that conducted the transaction, she confirms that the cash back would be to buy supplies for the business.

How would I go about putting the Business in the CTR? Would I enter it as another page in the Part I Person involved in Transactions? Or would I enter the business name under the individual that conducted the transaction? So, it would be his name but then put the business name in #8 - Alternate Name. I'm assuming that this is a Sole Proprietor account, but I have no way of knowing 'for sure'.

Sometimes, I overthink these CTR's way too much - to the point it keeps me up at night. frown

Any help would be greatly appreciated! smile
Posted By: rlcarey

Re: CTR question - cash withdrawals from business - 10/01/20 02:31 PM

You need to contact the customer and get this all straighten out as to what is going on and gather additional information concerning the business or close the account and do the best you can. There is no current answer to your question. Cash back on business deposits are never allowed in any bank of which I am aware.
Posted By: John Burnett

Re: CTR question - cash withdrawals from business - 10/05/20 03:31 PM

Whether that account was opened before CIP or not, you should not knowingly allow a purported business account in your bank where you don't know how it's formed (sole prop, partnership, LLC, Corporation, etc.) or have any documentation on authorized signers (assuming it's not a sole prop).

And you should not allow a business to conduct a "less cash" deposit. Even a sole proprietor should deposit checks in their entirety and draw a check for cash needs.
Posted By: John Burnett

Re: CTR question - cash withdrawals from business - 10/06/20 08:21 PM

And, even if that account was opened sixty years ago, the bank has a responsibility to know more about the business and its routine transaction types and volumes than it apparently does.