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#255306 - 10/13/04 10:30 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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Quote:
Alert! Alert! Abortion Debate! Abortion Debate, dead ahead!!! ::Running after Z:: Time to sign off 
No, no, no, not an abortion debate. The question to Kerry was not about whether he is pro-abortion, anti-abortion, pre-abortion, or ante-abortion. The question was about federal funding and I don't think Kerry even mentioned it must less answered the question. If this turns into an abortion debate, I will follow Dawnie out the door. If you want to know my opinion, I can refer you to a website or two that succinctly state what I believe.
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#255307 - 10/13/04 11:22 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
Only someone who is so entrenched in their support for Kerry that they could not be moved with a tractor could possibly say with a straight face that they knew exactly what he was saying. Your derision for Bush was there and has continued to be there since well before the 2000 election--am I correct? Derision?? Derission???
Whoa, Nelly. You act like I've been on these boards for years spouting off at the mouth.
Nope. First day (yesterday) giving my opinions.
That being said, let me correct you on something. I supported Bush at the start of the war. I believed him wholeheartedly. I defended him when I discussed him during friendly debates with my friends.
To clarify: this is not entrenched. There also, certainly, was no derision.
To further explain, Kerry said exactly what I believe. It's about more than abortion at hand. He feels, as I do, that my personal moral convictions should never impugne on yours. So while abortion is a very heavily emotional, moral, and ethical debate, personal morals should not be brought into it. Instead (as Kerry alluded to further) the Constitution should be interpreted free of personal convictions and interpreted legally.
So, while Bush and his entrenched followers claim they couldn't understand it (whether it be because of ADD or their entrenched idealogies blocking the comprehension), others could plainly see what his message was.
Amy, you, as well as some others, might find this link interesting: Study Finds Abortion Rising Under Bush
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#255308 - 10/14/04 03:14 AM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Interesting. The first post made a point of saying: "President Bush, in his rebuttal, took 11 seconds to reply"." Now someone posts the actual quote: "BUSH: I'm trying to decipher that. My answer is, we're not going to spend taxpayers' money on abortion. This is an issue that divides America, but certainly reasonable people can agree on how to reduce abortions in America. I signed the partial-birth -- the ban on partial-birth abortion. It's a brutal practice. It's one way to help reduce abortions. My opponent voted against the ban. I think there ought to be parental notification laws. He's against them. I signed a bill called the Unborn Victims of Violence Act. In other words, if you're a mom and you're pregnant and you get killed, the murderer gets tried for two cases, not just one. My opponent was against that. These are reasonable ways to help promote a culture of life in America. I think it is a worthy goal in America to have every child protected by law and welcomed in life. I also think we ought to continue to have good adoption law as an alternative to abortion. And we need to promote maternity group homes, which my administration has done. Culture of life is really important for a country to have if it's going to be a hospitable society. Thank you. " He said ALL THAT in eleven seconds?????? 
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#255309 - 10/14/04 03:53 AM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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Quote:
BUSH: I'm trying to decipher that.
My answer is, we're not going to spend taxpayers' money on abortion.
Here is his answer; was he supposed to give the remaining time back to Kerry. Have you noticed how Kerry and Edwards have used time to answer previous questions when they have not liked the question at hand?
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#255310 - 10/14/04 01:24 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
He said ALL THAT in eleven seconds??????
Please go back and re-read the original post. The original posting is quite clear in meaning that it took an 11-second response for the president to state the two sentences which constituted the president's answer to the moderator's question.
Conversely, it took the entire 90-second period for the senator to respond, but even to the last word the senator does not reply "yes" or "no" as to his position on taxpayer-funded abortions -- which, after all, was the original question of the moderator.
I know you don't like the distinction about clarity in the candidates' responses being raised, but the facts are the facts.
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#255311 - 10/14/04 01:39 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
Quote:
BUSH: I'm trying to decipher that.
My answer is, we're not going to spend taxpayers' money on abortion.
Here is his answer; was he supposed to give the remaining time back to Kerry. Have you noticed how Kerry and Edwards have used time to answer previous questions when they have not liked the question at hand?
Kerry annoyed me so much last night when he'd ignore the question at hand on his rebuttal and go back to the prior question in order to not answer the question.
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#255312 - 10/14/04 01:50 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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Quote:
Amy, you, as well as some others, might find this link interesting: Study Finds Abortion Rising Under Bush
Chickenon would prefer this headline:
ASHCROFT BEGINS CLOSING OF ABORTION CLINICS
proves liberals correct that he will use
personal religous beliefs instead of legal precedent
Abortionists Jailed, Denied Phone Calls
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#255313 - 10/14/04 02:19 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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Quote:
Amy, you, as well as some others, might find this link interesting: Study Finds Abortion Rising Under Bush
When did they start performing abortions under shrubberies?
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Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city
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#255314 - 10/14/04 02:55 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,455
The Pennant Race
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Quote:
He feels, as I do, that my personal moral convictions should never impugne on yours. So while abortion is a very heavily emotional, moral, and ethical debate, personal morals should not be brought into it. Instead (as Kerry alluded to further) the Constitution should be interpreted free of personal convictions and interpreted legally.
Amy, this is the fallacy in Kerry's argument. Laws are a collection of rules that represent the morals that society agrees should govern conduct. Here are two definitions of law that find particulary insttuctive:
The system of rules providing a basis for society to function harmoniously and efficiently.
and
a rule or body of rules of conduct inherent in human nature and essential to or binding upon human society.
Laws are no more than an expression of the collective will of society that certain rules will govern our conduct with and among each other. As such, they are an expression of the governed, based on the morals, faith, and beliefs of society.
Therefore, EVERY LAW is an imposition of the morals of a majority of society upon the entire society.
Senator Kerry's statement that he cannot impose his beliefs on society as a whole is disingenuous in the extreme. Every time he votes for (or against, for that matter) a bill in the Senate, he imposes his belief that the law under consideration is necessary/desirable, whether that law authorizes the use of force in Iraq, expands healthcare to uninsured citizens, or limits abortions. THAT IS HIS JOB AS A LEGISLATOR. If he doesn't like it, he should find another line of work.
When the Senator says that he believes abortion is wrong, but he will not act to impose this belief by legislating it, he is saying one of two things, both equally disturbing. Either he is actually lying about belief that abortion is wrong, and is trying to placate pro-life members of his constituency, or he will sublimate his principals to get what he wants (which is elected).
Frankly, I don't care which it is, I can't vote for him, even though I agree with his assessment of the incumbent President, even though I agree with his plans to roll back some of the tax cuts passed in the past four years, even though I agree that the war in Iraq was not immediately necessary, etc. etc.
A man (or woman) not willing to stand up for and run on his deeply held principles and beliefs is not trustworthy. And certainly not worthy of my vote.
_________________________
The opinions expressed here are personal and do not represent opinions of my employer.
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#255315 - 10/14/04 03:08 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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When the Senator says that he believes abortion is wrong, but he will not act to impose this belief by legislating it, he is saying one of two things, both equally disturbing. Either he is actually lying about belief that abortion is wrong, and is trying to placate pro-life members of his constituency, or he will sublimate his principals to get what he wants (which is elected).
What are laws against murder, theft, speeding, pollution etc... if not impositions of what legislators believe?
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Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city
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#255317 - 10/14/04 03:51 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
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#255318 - 10/14/04 06:01 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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In answer to the statement Quote:
my personal moral convictions should never impugne on yours
you say Quote:
EVERY LAW is an imposition of the morals of a majority of society upon the entire society.
First of all, many laws have nothing to do with morals - whether a government agency is organized a certain way, the members of a legislative group, when and how to file tax forms and many banking laws.
Second, though, is that "personal moral convictions" should not NECESSARILY be made into law. The clearest example of this is the Ten Commandments. Yes, killing and stealing have a moral basis and are properly laws. But coveting, "having no other gods", not taking the Lord's name in vain etc. are examples of "personal" morality. They affect only the individual, not others, and should not be laws. One example of when this country tried to impose personal morality was Prohibition, because some thought it was immoral to drink alcohol.
Just because SOME laws have a moral basis, doesn't mean that all moral bases should be laws.
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#255319 - 10/14/04 06:07 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Anonymous
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Bush could have talked baby talk and drooled all over his shirt last night, and I still wouldn't vote for that disingenuous creep Kerry.
His Senate record of putting the screws to the us is crystal clear. Almost everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie or contradiction. Go Bushy.
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#255320 - 10/14/04 06:13 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,353
Anchorage Alaska
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Quote:
When the Senator says that he believes abortion is wrong, but he will not act to impose this belief by legislating it, he is saying one of two things, both equally disturbing. Either he is actually lying about belief that abortion is wrong, and is trying to placate pro-life members of his constituency, or he will sublimate his principals to get what he wants (which is elected).
Wait a second Z...let me question that if you will? Is it not possible to have a personal belief, but also to know that while it's your belief, you can't impose your morality on others who may not hold that belief?
I think organized religion is a complete waste of time. Too many powers over the times have made the "Church" a bit of a joke (in my opinion). The Catholic Church for instance is a great example of organized religion gone wrong (again my belief).
That being said, I do not believe that the church doors should be closed to worshipers. I would in fact stand up in court and fight for your right to go to church, despite the fact that I think the "church" is not the best representation of God for people to follow. So, while I believe that organized religion is a sham and in many ways wrong, I'm also know many others do not feel this way and I can't force them to believe what I do.
I think that's the right way for a politician to act. While he has his personal views, he also represents his constituency who may not uphold those particular views. His job, the reason he was elected, is to uphold the views of his constituency, country, etc., and not to make his personal crusade theirs. I don't admire Kerry for much, but in this regard, I have to give him kudo's for stating his belief, but knowing he doesn't have the right to force his belief on me.
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Dawn Coursey VP/CRA Queen
CRA Rating is in...Oh who cares...I'm home with the baby.
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#255321 - 10/14/04 07:54 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,455
The Pennant Race
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Quote:
Wait a second Z...let me question that if you will? Is it not possible to have a personal belief, but also to know that while it's your belief, you can't impose your morality on others who may not hold that belief?
Dawn, that is exactly what legislators do every day. They make value judgments regarding what laws are necessary and desirable for our society. As I noted in my earlier post, that's their job.
If a candidate for any office is not going to guided by their principles and beliefs in making those judgments, then they have an obligation to be honest with the public about what will guide those judgments.
For Senator Kerry to say that it one of his heart-felt principles is that life begins at conception and abortion is wrong, but he will not try to legislate that into law, is intellectually dishonest. It either is not a heart-felt principle, or he believes it is more important to be elected than it is to stand up for his principles.
While there are things to admire about the man, I don't think that is one of them.
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The opinions expressed here are personal and do not represent opinions of my employer.
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#255322 - 10/14/04 08:23 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Wait a second Z...let me question that if you will? Is it not possible to have a personal belief, but also to know that while it's your belief, you can't impose your morality on others who may not hold that belief?
I think organized religion is a complete waste of time. Too many powers over the times have made the "Church" a bit of a joke (in my opinion). The Catholic Church for instance is a great example of organized religion gone wrong (again my belief).
That being said, I do not believe that the church doors should be closed to worshipers. I would in fact stand up in court and fight for your right to go to church, despite the fact that I think the "church" is not the best representation of God for people to follow. So, while I believe that organized religion is a sham and in many ways wrong, I'm also know many others do not feel this way and I can't force them to believe what I do.
I think that's the right way for a politician to act. While he has his personal views, he also represents his constituency who may not uphold those particular views. His job, the reason he was elected, is to uphold the views of his constituency, country, etc., and not to make his personal crusade theirs. I don't admire Kerry for much, but in this regard, I have to give him kudo's for stating his belief, but knowing he doesn't have the right to force his belief on me.
Wow, this is amazing. Dawnie's explanation is even similar to something that Senator Kerry would say. Liberal minds think alike!
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#255323 - 10/14/04 08:24 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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Quote:
When the Senator says that he believes abortion is wrong, but he will not act to impose this belief by legislating it, he is saying one of two things, both equally disturbing. Either he is actually lying about belief that abortion is wrong, and is trying to placate pro-life members of his constituency, or he will sublimate his principals to get what he wants (which is elected).
Dawnie--I did not say this, it was an uncredited quote of another BOL member. But I do agree with it. Carry on.
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#255325 - 10/14/04 08:29 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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Quote:
I think organized religion is a complete waste of time. Too many powers over the times have made the "Church" a bit of a joke (in my opinion).
You've visited my church? You must have! Surely you would not have reached such a conclusion without doing so. Why didn't you come by and say hello? OK, end of sarcasm.
You reached a conclusion about all "organized religion" based on your bad experiences. You are like one of the seven blind men who describe an elephant based on their personal experiences.
I am truly disappointed.
Last edited by -Z-; 10/14/04 08:37 PM.
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#255326 - 10/14/04 08:31 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
Quote:
I think organized religion is a complete waste of time. Too many powers over the times have made the "Church" a bit of a joke (in my opinion).
You've visited my church? You must have! Surely you would not have reached such a conclusion without doing so. Why didn't you come by and say hello? OK, end of sarcasm.
You reached a conclusion about all "organized religion" based on your bad experiences. You are like one of the seven blind men who describe what an elephant is based on their personal experience.
I am truly disappointed.
Amen to that. I felt the same way when I left the Catholic Church long ago because of the things that were happening. But I don't hold that against Christianity and organized religion as a whole.
By the way, atheism and agnosticism are just as organized...
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#255327 - 10/14/04 09:04 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Diamond Poster
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,044
The banana bin
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Quote:
By the way, atheism and agnosticism are just as organized...
Yeah, I missed my atheist meeting the other day and it's wrecked my week!
By the way, let me clarify some statements. I believe that a person should be able to seperate their views based upon their religion and that of what the constitution states.
It's fairly basic. Everyone has morals but like a snowflake, no two people are exactly alike.
Currently, whether you like it or not, hate it or don't hate it abortion is legal under our constitution. A legislators job is to enact and support laws that are within the Constitution, not circumvent it because it's not how you feel or what your religion suggests.
Kerry brought up an excellent point regarding a Supreme Court justice...when reading the decision you should not be able to tell if that person is white or black, atheist or Catholic, man or women. The decision is purely based upon the Constitution.
Again, just because I feel a certain way personally should not be what you feel. To force my views upon you is not right. Period. Unfortunately, there are people who still feel it's necessary to do so.
Thank you and Good Night.
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My opinions are definately my own. I could be wrong. But I don't think so.
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#255328 - 10/14/04 09:10 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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Quote:
Kerry brought up an excellent point regarding a Supreme Court justice...when reading the decision you should not be able to tell if that person is white or black, atheist or Catholic, man or women. The decision is purely based upon the Constitution.
That was not an original thought. However, whether they are black, white, Catholic, man woman should not be evident. I think both parties can agree. However, don't tell me that neither party has a litmus test as to certain matters important to them.
You seem to think that once someone's moral judgment is made an amendment to the constitution, voted into law by our legislative bodies, or ruled on by our courts, that it somehow loses its character as a moral judgment. That is naive. Our courts, our legislators, and our voters use their moral judgments every time they make law. "Snowflakes" or not, they better use their morals and their religion in making these decisions or we are doomed.
Do you have another guiding force in mind?
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#255330 - 10/14/04 09:20 PM
Re: Bush and Kerry: 90 seconds versus 11 seconds
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Anonymous
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The world is going to hell in a handbasket and the trip mirrors the decline of moral values and the importance of church and faith in our society. There is absolutely no denying that fact. Be athiest or agnostic if that's what floats your boat, but you simply cannot deny that Chritianity (true Christianity....as opposed to "organized religion") has only good to offer. Unfortunately, there are bad seeds in every walk of life. Christianity is not immune. Christians are not perfect. They are just forgiven.
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