I think their efforts in all of this data collection is faulty in some respect. If I applied for credit strictly over the phone or on Internet and did not check etnicity or race, the loan officer makes the choice on his/her observation of my married surname (which is german). This would be totally incorrect as I am Hispanic. I do realize this gets us more in line with how the census bureau captures information. I agree that the Hispanic or Latino communities would not be offended. I am not offended in any way...just confused My birth certificate listed my race as white. However, every form I have ever filled out regarding race gave a catagory for "Hispanic." It would be easier for the race category to have one category called "Human" (for human race)!

What it's coming down to in our markets is what people think or believe personally - not what the OMB and census definitions have always been. Most Hispanics I have polled (employees and friends) consider themselves NOT WHITE. No matter what the underlying uses and meanings of the data we gather is, we still have to figure out how to explain this to a Hispanic person who considers themselves NOT WHITE.

Also, many Mexicans are descended from Spaniards, but many are also descended from groups native to North or South America - so we would be remiss to check white on all these people. There aren't any easy answers!

I would like to add that I have not met a white person yet that considers a hispanic person white! Or like you said a hispanic person who considers themselves white. I don't consider myself white. Your are right that it does boil down to what people think or believe.

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I have polled (employees and friends) consider themselves NOT WHITE.

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Ok lets try it this way The following are THE ONLY RACE categories on the planet. They differentiate a people by definable characteristics. You have to be one of these, there are no others in the world, regardless of what a personal wish or belief may be.

White
Black
Asian Pacific Islander
American Indian

Can you see where existing race categories have diffetent genetic characteristics. So what genetic differences exist in the hispanic origin population that makes them different enough to be of another race, or not one of the ones established.

In your opinion what makes Hispanic origin people different from any of the defined race categories.

Don't confuse a NATIONALITY with race. Race has nothing to do with culture, language and location, similarities. If that were the case then there would also be a German, French, Swedish etc as Races?

Polska!

I think the confusion is because the "white" category is so all-encompassing and includes groups that feel they have nothing in common. A person of Middle-Eastern heritage is considered "white", and so is someone from Norway. The majority of Hispanics are white, as are most folks from Italy, Russia, England, Germany, Latvia, Finland, Greece, and so on.

The area that has me confused is the sub-continent of India. Are persons from there considered "white" or "Asian"?

Here are the official Office of Management and Budget definations of Races. In answer to the question, The sub continent of India is considered to be Asian. Please note the defination of Hispanic/Latino can be from specific NATIONALITIES regardless of race.

American Indian or Alaska Native. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintains
tribal affiliation or community attachment.

-- Asian. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan,Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.

-- Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa. Terms such as “Haitian” or “Negro” can be used in addition to “Black or African American.”

-- Hispanic or Latino. A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race. The term, “Spanish
origin,” can be used in addition to “Hispanic or Latino.”

-- Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands.

-- White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle
East, or North Africa.

Personally, I would like to see an "All-American Mutt" category. The bean counters in our government keep trying to divide us up and stick us into neat little categories that just don't fit.

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bean counters in our government keep trying to divide us up and stick us into neat little categories that just don't fit.

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From these posts I think its the opposite. Census folks established just 5 Race categories many many years ago which have not changed. Now the popular sentiment is to create more by further dividing into more segregated groups, which seem to be more along lines of nationality.

Its become very obvious that there needs to be a clear understanding of the definitions of Race, Ethnicity, and Nationality,and how they are applied in demographics.

Frankly, it doesn't matter if a Hispanic origin person selects White or any other Race, as there is an analysis category that will count Hispanic/Latinos separately regardless of what race is indicated. So like Blacks, Asian, American Indian, Hawaiian/and Pacific Islander, those of Hispanic/Latino origin are well considered in any analysis of exclusionary or discriminatory practices.

I have posted on several occasions my belief that if banks would use the demographics available, they could expect to see dramatic increases in profitable. From these posts I can see why its not done, which is because there is not enough understanding on what they mean or how to use them. Anyone want a class?

Whew!!! I just read this whole thread in one sitting!! My brain has turned into noodles.

Here's a question of more of a technical or procedural nature. On a typical real estate loan application, there is first, the statement regarding the fact that the information is required by the Federal Government...blah, blah, blah (read Deena's statement above). The first selection under that is a box for the applicant to indicate that he/she does not wish to furnish the information. Sooooo, how would the customer indicate that he/she does not wish to furnish only the race information?

Normally, when the customer indicates that he/she does not wish to furnish the information, the interviewer completes the information on the application and signs it. If the loan officer were to do this when only the race information is left blank, it would then appear that the applicant completed it.

Any ideas?....or am I making way too much of this?

There are really at least two distinct threads going here. There's the question about what the reg says we have to do, given the race and ethnicity categories provided, with no "other" category. No one is arguinge that we can or even SHOULD try to do anything to change the categories and definitions. We all can and will do the best we can to comply with the reg.
The other thread, the more "knotty" one, is to answer the questions and concerns of our good Latino/Hispanic customers who are legitimately confused, because they have always considered their race to be what is now defined as ethnicity, and they don't see their race listed as an option. We would be doing our respective employers a disservice if we are perceived as saying "you're wrong; Hispanic is NOT a race. See, it says so here in the definitions." We are not in the business of proving to people that they are wrong about themselves, no matter what the regs say. That's the quickest way I know to lose customers. "The customer is always right" is the first rule of good customer service. So this is our challenge, and the topic of the second thread: how do we train our people to talk to customers about this without driving the customer away by implying that they are wrong about what they have always believed to be true?

In the "How do you not offend your Hispanic/Latino customer" thread, I'm tending toward the following:

Mr. Lopez, I understand how you feel about these categories, and apologize if you feel offended. The government has completely changed the manner in which they require banks to collect this information. Yes, it does seem bizaare that Hispanic is no longer a race but is now an ethnicity, and that you must now indicate if you are a White/Hispanic, Black/Hispanic, etc., or a combination of races and Hispanic. We are as confused by this as you are, but we have no choice but to indicate at least one of this categories even if you do not wish to.

If you find this offensive, may I suggest that you write to your congressional representative and let him or her know how you feel.

Don, I predict this will go over like a lead balloon in the Inland Empire.

Of course, that's the only area from which I received Privacy Notice complaints even though our notice said we weren't sharing.

And it's the area that people will still claim they are citizens of the Republic of California and therefore not required to have a SSN.

Kid gloves I tell ya...

Okay, I am resurecting this post due to some research that I found out on the OMB's website. I am getting ready to conduct my Reg B & C training tomorrow and I felt like I needed to go to the source to find out about the Hispanic Ethnicity/Race dilemma.

It appears in testing conducted through the OMB, prior to the 2000 Census, they targeted groups to test various forms for obtaining race/ethnicity to find which would produce the greatest responses (in a nutshell). It appears they consciously put the ethnicity question first because it reduced nonresponses from the Hispanic population tested. Also, that the majority of the Hispanic respondents reported Ethnicity as Hispanic or Latino and Race as White.

Maybe this is not earth shattering to some of you, but at least it gives us a comfort level of the way the majority of the applicants may view themselves and for those applicants that do not wish to complete the government monitoring information maybe it will give us more of a comfort level in what to record.

U.S. Census Bureau
Here is the website if you want some good reading before you go to sleep at night!

I got a rather strong reaction from Hispanic acquaintances when I told them the government now considers Hispanic to be an ethnicity and not a race. These particular acquaintances really saw themselves as a group distinct from "white" people.

I guess I don't get it, as I have never seen any reference to Hispanic as a Race, and have a problem with understanding why the belief it is or was. Could it be that bankers are incorrectly giving credence to it being a Race by referring to Hispanic/Latino as a Race?

We still need to get the idea across that Hispanic is a term, on par with Italian, Irish, German, French, etc. as an Origin. It is not a slight or demeaning circumstance suddenly brought on by the government. The government census bureau has always collected the data as an origin and not as a race. Hispanics have always been counted and included in one of the races.

The choice bankers have is to educate or infuriate

Don,
I don't know if its bankers so much as just a general consensus, especially among persons who identify themselves as Hispanics. Listen to almost any Latino stand-up comic, and you will hear lots of references to weird stuff that "white people" do, and the many differences between Latinos, Whites, Blacks, Asians, etc.

Or at least that's what I've heard.

Anyone found good descriptive definitions for race and ethnicity?

I did.

Categories and Definitions

Go down about 3/4ths of the page

As the question relates to those of Mexican or Central American decent, I am inclined to think that they would identify most closely to "American Indian or Alaska Native". Being of a mixed Hispanic decent myself, I have to believe that someone of Central American decent is going to have a certain amount of Mayan, Aztec or Incan blood. Those are, by definition, "Native Americans" since America refers to more than just the United States. America encompasses North, Central and South America.
The problem that Hispanics have with these questions stems from the fact that this sort of information is not gathered in their home countries. Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here. How are we supposed to become more tolerant and "color blind" if we continue to categorize and segregate ourselves?