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My point is that your point is pointless!

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Well, let's see you (presumably) posted "The ACLU has nothing to do with civil liberties." You give nothing to support this laughable statement about a group whose sole mission is the protection of civil liberties. When I post the Mission Statement of the ACLU which indicates what they do, once again you disagree but cite nothing to support what you say (not surprising since there is nothing to support what you say).

You seem to have the idea that your ideas are truth no matter how delusional they are. It just doesn't work that way.

Well, that does name a difference if you weren't the one that made the ridiculous statement that the ACLU has nothing to do with civil liberties. What am I supposed to say when confronted with such a bizarre unsupported statement?

What the mission statement shows is that the defense of civil liberties is the avowed purpose fo the group. I'm sure there may be other groups that believe they are defending civil liberties and they may disagree with the ACLU in how to do that. So what?

I agree completely with your statement that "Only in practice is it proven", and it is! The ACLU is constantly involved in litigation against the government on behalf of freedom of speech, religion, and the press as well as supporting constitutional rights of the accused. I have yet to hear any suggestion of how a group that is involved in civil liberties litigation can possibly have nothing to do with civil liberties. That is their purpose for being.

There are constant articles like this all over the web:

Authors Reveal ACLU's 'Anti-American' Intentions
The ACLU Vs. America: Exposing the Agenda to Redefine Moral Values by Alan Sears and Craig Osten
Book Review by Gary Schneider
September 2, 2005

(AgapePress) - The ACLU, from its very inception, has embraced principles antithetical to the founding tenets and subsequent prosperity and decency of this nation. The ACLU and their cohorts continue to aggressively undermine marriage, the family, the protection of children, the value of life, religious liberty and even American sovereignty itself. To this end they have acquired vast swaths of wealth and have been successful in undermining the will of the people in furtherance of their leftist anti-American putsch via the exploitation of the court system and their consistently applied strategy of legal intimidation, misinformation and fear.

"That's just demagogic hyperbole -- prove it!" you say? OK -- but be warned: the facts that buttress these assertions are not only illuminating, but are often times quite disconcerting.

Alan Sears (president, CEO and general council of the Alliance Defense Fund) and Craig Osten (vice president of presidential communications and research of the same firm) have crafted an important new book entitled The ACLU vs. America: Exposing the Agenda to Redefine Moral Values (Broadman & Holman, 2005), which effectively exposes the extremist agenda of the American Civil Liberties Union, its tactics, and ultimately the ongoing threat this organization and their allies pose to our children, families and to the nation. It is perhaps the first work of its kind to challenge the ACLU's design for America in such direct, succinct, organized and empirically supported terms.

Indeed, this is not a ~215-page rant that engages in ad hominem attacks and emotional appeals to contrive a case against the ACLU; rather -- as good lawyers do -- the authors build their case using historical facts, documented statements, positions and court actions of the ACLU to, in effect, use the ACLU's history and actions against itself ... and the facts are quite incriminating.

From its founding in 1920 by Roger Baldwin, a socialist with strong communist leanings, the ACLU was never a genuine force for American liberty as defined by America's founding fathers. Baldwin's family history and influences engendered a liberal elitist worldview that generally maintains contempt for the common man, religion and the popular will of the people -- a series of traits that permeate the ACLU today. Baldwin's family, friends and associates were replete with members of the Communist party, ties to the Soviet Union, anarchists and even eugenicists (e.g., Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood) who advocated the pursuit of a superior race through selective breeding and abortion.

You will discover that through decades of honing its skills of intimidation, misinformation and fear through threats of lawsuits, duplicitous public relations antics and manufactured legal confrontations, the ACLU has been successful in establishing an unholy record of legal precedents largely resulting from under-funded or ill-equipped opposition to their attacks, rather than solid legal argument or Constitutional relevance. These attacks have, in relative historical terms, only recently been effectively countered by organizations such as the Alliance Defense fund.

Despite more effective countermeasures, the ACLU goose steps on unabated and arrogantly assumes the dirty banner of protecting pornographers, violent pedophiles and an "anything goes" culture -- all the while telling us it's for our own good -- and synchronously progresses efforts to further erode religious liberty, traditional values, marriage, parental authority and the value of human life.

Why is this? To what end?

If you purge God and religion as a self-control mechanism and promote immorality, a need is created for innumerable new laws and dependence on the state for order. More laws translate to more government control of its people and the eventual transfer of power to an elitist oligarchy that is accountable to virtually no one. Unalienable rights, a higher power and morality to which people and governments are accountable, becomes a historic relic having been displaced by an all-powerful state. In other words, you "undo" the uniquely American tenet, as stated in our Declaration of Independence, that all men "... are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness .... That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ..." and, in so "undoing," allow for the complete redefinition of the American governmental paradigm.

As you progress through the book you will quickly and reasonably come to the understanding that the ACLU considers the U.S. Constitution to be something that must be undone and their relevance to American law and culture progressively marginalized. If successful in this strategic endeavor, virtually nothing obstructs them from redefining America as an extremist secular-socialist state through the use of the courts and with activist judges as their accomplices. The ACLU's work toward this end is further evidenced by their recent advocacy for the use of international law and precedent within the American legal system. That is, they desire to engender the formal acceptance of erroneous foreign case law precedent and jurisprudence for use in American courts as a means to facilitate the erosion and relevance of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Without the Constitution as America's steadfast legal mooring, activist judges will be empowered to randomly select and apply foreign case law in American courts that suite their personally held worldviews.

Perhaps the most essential point, though, that Sears and Osten seek to impart to the reader is this: The time has arrived when challenges to our way of life must be defended vigorously in order to once again establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.

I agree.

There has perhaps been no time in American history when our successful model of American society and government has been threatened to the degree it is today; and the primary transgressors in this truth are nefariously embodied in the likes of the ACLU, a highly sympathetic cultural elite, and to a degree, the ambivalence of we -- the American people.

Nevertheless, after reading this most critical and timely book, I have a strong sense that much of this is about to change ... and you will, too.

I think I love you!

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There are constant articles like this all over the web

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Of course there are. There is a tremendous amount of opinion out there and these individuals are entitled to theirs, even if it is nonsense. The ACLU would be the first to defend their right to print these attacks. In the marketplace of ideas, all views should be represented.

There is a political movement to try to demonize the ACLU, particularly now when our civil liberties are being threatened.

What difference does it make whether they were Christians, Deists or whatever else? They provided for a government that was barred from establishing religion or prohibiting its free exercise. They clearly didn't want anyone to have to agree with their beliefs, whatever they were.

http://www.geocities.com/peterroberts.geo/Relig-Politics/

Most interesting are:

Benjamin Franklin
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
John Adams....
.....I must admit I did not realize the Unitarian Church has been around that long.

Among the other founders are Congregationalists, Espicopalians, Presbyterians, Dutch Reformed, Roman Catholic, Universalist, Anglican, and many for whom no religious affiliation was recorded.

Also noticed a lot of Masons.

Frankly, the ACLU is a necessary pain in the a$$, just like ultra-conservative Republicans. This whole country is all about checks and balances, and if you eliminate one fringe element, the balance will tip dangerously toward the other.

Personally, I thank G-d that I have the CHOICE to listen to either or both Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore. Or not to listen to either one but mock both of them anyways.

What you guys are confused on is the ACLU has shifted its focus away from protecting Civil Liberties to getting involved in issues that have nothing to do with civil liberties.