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#566975 - 06/15/06 12:17 AM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Anonymous
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KCGeoQueen, if you ever spend time on the Yahoo! News message boards related to world news articles, you'll quickly see that there are many people from all nations that don't like us -- not just followers of Islam.
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#566976 - 06/15/06 12:17 AM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Actually Islam is not founded on hatred of anyone, any more than Christianity is.
With all due respect, BF, you're mistaken. You need to take some time to read the Koran and you'll soon learn the truth. Go to the source, don't let others interpret for you.
With all due respect, I'd like to know what version of the Koran you have been reading.
I've studied Islam and I can tell you, the hatred is in the interpretation, not in the scripture.
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#566977 - 06/15/06 12:52 AM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
With all due respect, I'd like to know what version of the Koran you have been reading. I've studied Islam and I can tell you, the hatred is in the interpretation, not in the scripture.
I admit I'm not a scholar of the Koran, but what is your reaction to these verses from the Koran that I have found on the Internet? The sheer number of Islamic scriptures on this topic (if they are valid), seem to me anyway, to suggest a foundation of intolerance and hatred. Please show me where I'm wrong. I'm willing to listen and consider alternative points of view. As I said, I'm no scholar of the Koran.
O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred...
Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve.
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!"
And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah.
When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.
And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM.
FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM.
FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION.
O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is [censored], and evil is the destination.
O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is [censored]; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself.
And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. Is it then the judgment of the times of ignorance that they desire: and who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure? O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE.
The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power.
Believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god: far be it from his glory that He should have a son.
What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. THEY DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD DISBELIEVE AS THEY HAVE DISBELIEVED, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE ALL ALIKE; THEREFORE TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM FRIENDS UNTIL THEY FLY THEIR HOMES IN ALLAH'S WAY; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER.
As for those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the punishment.
Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah - they shall have a severe punishment; and Allah is Mighty, the lord of retribution.
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"
WE DECLARE OURSELVES TO BE CLEAR OF YOU, AND ENMITY AND HATRED HAVE APPEARED BETWEEN US AND YOU FOREVER UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH ALONE.
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#566978 - 06/15/06 12:15 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 10,395
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With all due respect, I'd like to know what version of the Koran you have been reading. I've studied Islam and I can tell you, the hatred is in the interpretation, not in the scripture.
I admit I'm not a scholar of the Koran, but what is your reaction to these verses from the Koran that I have found on the Internet? The sheer number of Islamic scriptures on this topic (if they are valid), seem to me anyway, to suggest a foundation of intolerance and hatred. Please show me where I'm wrong. I'm willing to listen and consider alternative points of view. As I said, I'm no scholar of the Koran.
Bugs,
My initial reaction is "Gee, the extra-credit work in 'fair and balanced' quote-picking seems to have paid off."
My second reaction is that with not too much effort, you could find matching quotes from the books of the Old Testament (think the extermination of the Canaanites, the destruction of Jericho, the plagues visited on Egypt, the conquest of 'unbelievers' to establish Jerusalem and on and on and on). A consistent theme of the Old Testament, and one that many "fire and brimstone" preachers built careers on is along the lines of "If you love Me and do what I tell you, everything will be fine and I'll give you eternal life. But if you don't, I'll have to destroy you."
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#566980 - 06/15/06 05:03 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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BF, here's one page that seems (to me anyway) to have some legitimate points on the subject of how Islamic law handles the question of how to relate to the apostate: The Punishment of the Apostate And here's a link to the page where I copied the scripture I posted above: Apparently Problematic Verses in the Koran I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
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#566981 - 06/15/06 05:14 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Power Poster
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,985
FINALLY ABOVE the gnat line
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Has anyone else read, "Abraham: The Father of Three Faiths"? I just finished it the other day and thought it had an interesting persepective on the situation in the middle east. It was written by Bruce Feiler who was raised in Savannah, GA as a Jew. It covers the beginning of Islam and what was being accomplished by that religion at that time and in that place. I recommend it to anyone truely interested in the topic.
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My Opinion Only.
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#566982 - 06/15/06 05:27 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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BF, here's one page that seems (to me anyway) to have some legitimate points on the subject of how Islamic law handles the question of how to relate to the apostate:
The Punishment of the Apostate
And here's a link to the page where I copied the scripture I posted above:
Apparently Problematic Verses in the Koran
I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Thank you so much. Just by briefly looking at these two links it is obvious that you have gone through and picked and chosen whatever suited your point, rather than taking the text as a whole and in context.
Move along....
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#566983 - 06/15/06 05:50 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Thank you so much. Just by briefly looking at these two links it is obvious that you have gone through and picked and chosen whatever suited your point, rather than taking the text as a whole and in context. Move along....
Of course that's what I've done. I used Google to search for terms that I was interested in finding out about. I have no idea about whether or not these verses were taken out of context.
Instead of simply dismissing my question I wonder if you'd be kind enough to provide me with some links to alternative points of view.
I am sincere in finding out the truth and hearing both sides of the question. Am I to simply trust your statement that you're researched the Koran and I should simply accept it on faith that Islam is not a religion founded on hatred?
If you don't want to provide me with links (or you cannot provide me links), just say so, but don't give me a patronizing little pat on the head and say "move along." I may be wrong, but I hope you're a bigger person than that.
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#566984 - 06/15/06 06:03 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Thank you so much. Just by briefly looking at these two links it is obvious that you have gone through and picked and chosen whatever suited your point, rather than taking the text as a whole and in context. Move along....
Of course that's what I've done. I used Google to search for terms that I was interested in finding out about. I have no idea about whether or not these verses were taken out of context.
Instead of simply dismissing my question I wonder if you'd be kind enough to provide me with some links to alternative points of view.
I am sincere in finding out the truth and hearing both sides of the question. Am I to simply trust your statement that you're researched the Koran and I should simply accept it on faith that Islam is not a religion founded on hatred?
If you don't want to provide me with links (or you cannot provide me links), just say so, but don't give me a patronizing little pat on the head and say "move along." I may be wrong, but I hope you're a bigger person than that.
Perhaps you should click on the link within one of your posts that says "turning the other cheek" to get another perspective.
Christianity could be villanized even more easily than Islam with your method.
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#566985 - 06/15/06 06:33 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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10K Club
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 10,395
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anon-Bugs,
Reconcile your theory (religion based on hatred) with the following verses from the Koran:
Requite evil with good and he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend. But none will attain this save those who endure with fortitude and are greatly favoured by Allah.
Be courteous when you argue with the People of the Book [Bible], except with those among them who do evil. Say: ŒWe believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is one
As for those that have faith and do good works . . . We shall take away all hatred from their hearts.
Allah does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither made war on your religion nor driven you from your homes. Allah loves the equitable.
Allah is forgiving and merciful.
To those who commit evil through ignorance and afterwards repent and mend their ways your Lord is forgiving and merciful.
If an idolater seeks asylum with you, give him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and then convey him to safety. . . .
So long as they keep faith with you, keep faith with them. Allah loves the righteous.
Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabaeans(whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does what is right) shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or to regret.
In the Torah We decreed for them a life for a life, an eye for an eye . . . But if a man charitably forbears from retaliation, his remission shall atone for him.
When a (courteous) greeting is offered to you, meet it with a greeting still more courteous, or (at least) of equal courtesy"
Be steadfast in prayer, give the alms, and bow down with those who bow.
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#566986 - 06/15/06 07:47 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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100 Club
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 234
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I would agree with the opinion that the religion is not based on hatred. It is (as is Christianity) based on bringing the world into enlightened salvation. Both Islam and Cristianity are triumphalist and prosyletizing religions, believing that their message is the true and perfected revelation. I think history sociology is what complicates things in this instance. Whereas Christianity, in its early days, evolved as a distinct entity from the state, Islam has never been distinct from the society of the Islamic world. When, as now, the social fortunes of the Islamic world are lagging behind those of the West (understanding that, at least historically, Moslem works do not much distinguish between the West and Christendom), there is a a great deal of turmoil created by the dueling realities that: a) Ours is the true religion and beacon to the world, but b) The followers of the earlier, superceded version of our faith seem to be controlling the world. As long as this conflict remains, I do not believe the West wil ever be terribly popular in the Islamic world.
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My opinions should not be taken as legal advice and I do not speak for my employer.
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#566988 - 06/15/06 11:10 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
... but I bet you will also see a number of Americans that hate people of other countries based on generalizations.
Without a doubt. Some of the Americans who post on the Yahoo! message boards represent some of most breathtakingly biased imbeciles in the world who have with internet access. The rest of world certainly hasn't cornered the market on idiots. There are many of them in the United States. I wasn't trying to imply that America doesn't have it's share of people who won't (or can't) think for themselves.
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#566989 - 06/15/06 11:13 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
anon-Bugs,
Reconcile your theory (religion based on hatred) with the following verses from the Koran
Thank you AML-Barbarian. However, I'm still waiting to hear from my friend Bengals Fan.
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#566990 - 06/16/06 01:27 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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anon-Bugs,
Reconcile your theory (religion based on hatred) with the following verses from the Koran
Thank you AML-Barbarian. However, I'm still waiting to hear from my friend Bengals Fan.
I thought I'd made myself clear. I don't have the time to discuss this with someone who is intellectually dishonest, and not actually looking to learn but to put up the worst possible case. Frankly, what you are doing to the beliefs of Islam is no different than someone picking through the Bible and taking out every instance of violence, hatred, or vengeance from the Old Testament and pretending it typifies Christianity. Go play your game elsewhere.
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#566991 - 06/16/06 01:37 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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anon-Bugs,
Reconcile your theory (religion based on hatred) with the following verses from the Koran
Thank you AML-Barbarian. However, I'm still waiting to hear from my friend Bengals Fan.
I thought I'd made myself clear. I don't have the time to discuss this with someone who is intellectually dishonest, and not actually looking to learn but to put up the worst possible case. Frankly, what you are doing to the beliefs of Islam is no different than someone picking through the Bible and taking out every instance of violence, hatred, or vengeance from the Old Testament and pretending it typifies Christianity. Go play your game elsewhere.
BF you don't know me. You don't know my itentions or my heart. How *dare* you call me intellecutally dishonest. I am entirely honest and sincere in my request. I didn't want to go with AML's scriptures because his source may be based on misinterpretations (as you have suggested so many translations are). You've put yourself forward as the expert. If you can't deliver, then just say so. But I won't call your intellectually dishonest. I may call you foolish for assuming things about which you have no knowledge, but I won't call you dishonest.
I am *not* playing a game. Obviously, you're not a reliable resource for information on this topic.
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#566993 - 06/16/06 01:49 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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anon-Bugs,
Reconcile your theory (religion based on hatred) with the following verses from the Koran
Thank you AML-Barbarian. However, I'm still waiting to hear from my friend Bengals Fan.
I thought I'd made myself clear. I don't have the time to discuss this with someone who is intellectually dishonest, and not actually looking to learn but to put up the worst possible case. Frankly, what you are doing to the beliefs of Islam is no different than someone picking through the Bible and taking out every instance of violence, hatred, or vengeance from the Old Testament and pretending it typifies Christianity. Go play your game elsewhere.
BF you don't know me. You don't know my itentions or my heart. How *dare* you call me intellecutally dishonest. I am entirely honest and sincere in my request. I didn't want to go with AML's scriptures because his source may be based on misinterpretations (as you have suggested so many translations are). You've put yourself forward as the expert. If you can't deliver, then just say so. But I won't call your intellectually dishonest. I may call you foolish for assuming things about which you have no knowledge, but I won't call you dishonest.
I am *not* playing a game. Obviously, you're not a reliable resource for information on this topic.
Nor are you, which was my initial complaint. Yes, there are instances of hatred, violence, etc. in Islam. Islamic law is brutal. So is Christian law in part. So is our law as a nation. After all, our nation practices murder as punishment. We don't just put a bullet in their brain pan, we strap them to a chair, put a wet towel on their head, put a metal cap on top, and run high voltage through them roasting them from the inside out. No wonder other nations hate us. That's just sick isn't it?
As I said, if you want to study this, instead of looking on line in a search for "Islamic Hatred of the US" and taking bits and pieces, talk to someone who is of the faith and get to know what it is really about. Read the Koran, although from what I have been told, even the best translation misses a lot of the beauty of the text.
PS: Sorry Sweetpea, stranger things have happened.
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#566994 - 06/16/06 02:19 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Islamic law is brutal. So is Christian law in part. So is our law as a nation. After all, our nation practices murder as punishment. We don't just put a bullet in their brain pan, we strap them to a chair, put a wet towel on their head, put a metal cap on top, and run high voltage through them roasting them from the inside out. No wonder other nations hate us. That's just sick isn't it?
Well, now who is being intellectually dishonest? There is exactly one state in the US that still requires use of the electric chair, and that is due more to death penalty opponents who won't allow lethal injection to be adopted there, in hope that the chair will be ruled unconstitutional. If you're so morally repulsed, Michael, why not move to France?
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#566995 - 06/16/06 02:33 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 234
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I would suggest neither online research nor speaking with adherrents to the religion in question as the way to obtain reliable information about Islam and/or Muslims. Adherrents are likely to be every bit as biased toward their religion as Christians would be to theirs. The fact is that the only method to obtain a high level, unbiased view is to do the work and study the works of orientalists and other academians that are respected in all quarters. It requires more effort and takes longer, but this is the only reliable way, as you would not only want to know how a practicioner (presumably in the U.S.) interprets verse, but also how it is generally interpretted, past and present, and the underlying social and political framework. Just my $.02.
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My opinions should not be taken as legal advice and I do not speak for my employer.
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#566996 - 06/16/06 02:43 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Islamic law is brutal. So is Christian law in part. So is our law as a nation. After all, our nation practices murder as punishment. We don't just put a bullet in their brain pan, we strap them to a chair, put a wet towel on their head, put a metal cap on top, and run high voltage through them roasting them from the inside out. No wonder other nations hate us. That's just sick isn't it?
Well, now who is being intellectually dishonest? There is exactly one state in the US that still requires use of the electric chair, and that is due more to death penalty opponents who won't allow lethal injection to be adopted there, in hope that the chair will be ruled unconstitutional. If you're so morally repulsed, Michael, why not move to France?
Exactly my point, it is easy to take things out of context and make a culture/belief system look bad. I wasn't at all trying to say that every American believes such things. I was pointing out that indeed that is untrue. I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear.
As for my moral repulsion at capital punishment, why should I move out of the nation I love because I do not agree with one of our laws. I don't think there should be a difference between the age at which you can be called up to serve in the armed forces, the age you get to vote, and the age you get to drink either. I also think the same age should apply to driving a car. But here is the kicker.... I AM ALLOWED TO BELIEVE THESE THINGS. I AM ALLOWED TO STAND FOR THESE THINGS. I AM ALLOWED TO MAKE CHANGES BY VOTING MY BELIEFS. I AM ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE AMERICAN WAY AND STILL DISAGREE WITH EVERYTHING OUR NATION DOES.... DUH!
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#566997 - 06/16/06 03:01 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Exactly my point, it is easy to take things out of context and make a culture/belief system look bad.
So, now you are saying that the death penalty really isn't brutal? That you were only being sarcastic? Hmm...
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#566998 - 06/16/06 03:04 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Nor are you, which was my initial complaint.
Your inital complaint had nothing to do with me saying I was an expert on the topic, you merely pointed out that I was misinterpreting (and misusing) the scriptures I quoted from the Koran. I freely admitted I copied them from a website (and even gave you the link).
I *never* put myself forward as an expert. You did. I guess you're saying now that you're not. So your thoughts on the topic hold no more weight than mine.
You really need to start taking some time to actually read what someone posts before you reply, my friend.
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#566999 - 06/16/06 03:14 PM
Re: Everyone of Islamic belief hates the US
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Exactly my point, it is easy to take things out of context and make a culture/belief system look bad.
So, now you are saying that the death penalty really isn't brutal? That you were only being sarcastic? Hmm...
No, I'm not saying that. I disagree completely with the death penalty. What I am saying is that one can easily take the worst possible situation out of context with the rest of a message/society and make it look far worse. The electric chair, in my opinion is a completely sadistic form of torture that should NEVER have been used at all.
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