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#749692 - 06/08/07 04:30 PM
Re: Dr. Death
straw
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And if the motivation is religious in nature, you automatically dismiss it. not so, i just want it on the table so people aren't hiding the ball so to speak. as weird as it may seem, i'm a very religious/spiritual person. You further argue there is basically no public policy that would want to prevent people from being killed stop saying it this way. i am talking about terminally ill people in pain. the public policy is limited to termianlly ill in pain people in my opinion. this isn't a culture of death. Interesting gun analogy. Does the gun shop owner pull the trigger? If not, the analogy doesn't really hold. does kevorkian pull the trigger? the analogy stands. For an ALS patient, I believe he did. Not only that, but the true analogy would be a gun shop owner selling the gun, loading the gun, placing it in the "customer's" mouth, and placing the "customer's" finger on the trigger.
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#749698 - 06/08/07 04:33 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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some who are paralyzed become suicidal and depressed those people wouldn't meet the requirements of the test. Who are you to legislate morality - if it's ok for the ALS patient, why not the parapalegic? If it's ok for the MS patient, why not the chronically, severely depressed? What is the public policy interest in having one live, but not the other?
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#749699 - 06/08/07 04:34 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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Not only that, but the true analogy would be a gun shop owner selling the gun, loading the gun, placing it in the "customer's" mouth, and placing the "customer's" finger on the trigger. the real difference is, we don't have people like vt shooter supplier making the decision. we have doctors making the decisions. if they are madmen breaking the rules like they did in holland then go after them for it. just don't get rid of the system because it's not enforced correctly.
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#749703 - 06/08/07 04:37 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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if it's ok for the ALS patient, why not the parapalegic? If it's ok for the MS patient, why not the chronically, severely depressed? What is the public policy interest in having one live, but not the other? because the people who i would qualify are going to die within a short amount of time anyway and are in severve pain.
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#749721 - 06/08/07 04:57 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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And if the motivation is religious in nature, you automatically dismiss it. not so, i just want it on the table so people aren't hiding the ball so to speak. as weird as it may seem, i'm a very religious/spiritual person. You further argue there is basically no public policy that would want to prevent people from being killed stop saying it this way. i am talking about terminally ill people in pain. the public policy is limited to termianlly ill in pain people in my opinion. this isn't a culture of death. Interesting gun analogy. Does the gun shop owner pull the trigger? If not, the analogy doesn't really hold. does kevorkian pull the trigger? the analogy stands. Actually, he just served a prison term for "pulling the trigger".
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#749763 - 06/08/07 05:26 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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because the people who i would qualify are going to die within a short amount of time anyway and are in severve pain. But Ron, what makes you qualified to judge who is eligible?
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#749785 - 06/08/07 05:42 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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Ron, you're making a values judgement - why is it ok for a person who is in pain and projected to die within X months to have the "assistance" of a physician, but not someone who is paralyzed? Who are you to impose your morality on the paralyzed?
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#749808 - 06/08/07 05:52 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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did he pull the trigger, swim? perhaps in the ALS case he did. otherwise, was he really the trigger puller? yes, hence the murder conviction.
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#749831 - 06/08/07 06:04 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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Ron, you're making a values judgement of course i am. but rather than try to make some bright line rule, i am trying to accomdate certain people who, in my estimation, would truly benefit from it; i am trying to balance my morality with the needs of others. some people qualify, others do not. we establish limits everywhere in soceity.
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#749841 - 06/08/07 06:10 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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By control, it is how would we know the patient wants this? they ask. Coercion, sanity, fraud. None of these are a concern? Quote:
Prospects and pain aare both subjective
i think prospects are pretty objective. medicine is a science. pain is also something that is tested rather objectively.
Medicine is a science, but medicine cannot and does not know how long a person may or may not live. And medicine cannot measure life quality during that time. Even if we limit this to terminal patients, what time frame would be considered terminal. At the extreme, we are all terminal as we are all going to die eventually. Quote:
as some who are paralyzed become suicidal and depressed
those people wouldn't meet the requirements of the test. What would be the test requirements then?
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#749842 - 06/08/07 06:11 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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did he pull the trigger, swim? perhaps in the ALS case he did. otherwise, was he really the trigger puller? Yes he was really the trigger puller. The executioner is the trigger puller too, we just allow that as an exception.
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#749848 - 06/08/07 06:12 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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Ron, you're making a values judgement of course i am. but rather than try to make some bright line rule, i am trying to accomdate certain people who, in my estimation, would truly benefit from it; i am trying to balance my morality with the needs of others. some people qualify, others do not. we establish limits everywhere in soceity. What would the limits be? We establish limits everywhere but we don't want a bright line rule. I am really trying to flesh through this with you, can you help me out a little.
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#749921 - 06/08/07 06:48 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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Coercion, sanity, fraud. None of these are a concern? sure they are. but those are separate issues that can be dealt with independently. but medicine cannot and does not know how long a person may or may not live sorry, i never mean to imply an exact date and time. pregnancies are ~9 months, person x has ~1 year to live. And medicine cannot measure life quality during that time. luckily i was talking about pain and suffering. What would be the test requirements then? learn to read previous posts. i said the test twice in the same post earlier.
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#749947 - 06/08/07 07:01 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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Quote:
Coercion, sanity, fraud. None of these are a concern?
sure they are. but those are separate issues that can be dealt with independently.
Not a clue what you mean here. like the gun debate: if we abolish guns, guns will become illegal. "but the criminals will still have guns!" ok, but it is illegal for them to have them. in other words, the gun prohibition will not completely fix the problem, but there are other laws to capture the contingencies; sure, there could be fraud or coercion in the AS, but we can punish the fraudulent and coercive people.
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#749950 - 06/08/07 07:03 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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terminal or no hope of recovery and unnecessary suffering. i think you can make those things pretty objective.
Is this the test?
Terminal I think is objecive. No hope of recovery - what does this mean? Recovery from what?
Objective define unnecessary suffering? Who determines what is necssary and unncessary? The individual. If so, subjective. The legislature? Medical boards?
Pain and suffering and comletely subjective concepts that we attempt to objectify, but they are unmeasurable. straw, i would think that the medical people and social philosophers can work together to hammer out the details.
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#749962 - 06/08/07 07:11 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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Ron, you're making a values judgement of course i am. Then stop denouncing others who want to make a different values judgement. Your smarmy "the Bible says (obliquely) that it is wrong" sarcasm is the height of hypocrisy. Once you've stipulated that there must be limits, the question is only where the limits are. My limit is any "assistance," because I don't think it's acceptable. Yours is in situations where you deem it to be acceptable, but not in areas where you don't. Moralizer.
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#749975 - 06/08/07 07:21 PM
Re: Dr. Death
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Quote:
Coercion, sanity, fraud. None of these are a concern?
sure they are. but those are separate issues that can be dealt with independently.
Not a clue what you mean here. like the gun debate: if we abolish guns, guns will become illegal. "but the criminals will still have guns!" ok, but it is illegal for them to have them. in other words, the gun prohibition will not completely fix the problem, but there are other laws to capture the contingencies; sure, there could be fraud or coercion in the AS, but we can punish the fraudulent and coercive people. So no controls to prevent that upfront? Wait for someone to allege it? Of course, the patient is dead, so they can't claim coercion at that point can they?
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did you miss the new math on that one? seems to me we had a whole thread about it... 
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