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#1602761 - 09/13/11 02:02 PM CTR question
AuditorK Offline
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PA
Husband and wife, John and Jane Doe have a joint checking account.

John comes in to the bank in the morning and cashes checks drawn on other banks in the amount of $2,500. He also withdraws $6,500 in cash from the joint checking account. Later on the same business day, Jane comes in to the bank and withdraws $5,100 in cash from the joint checking acocunt.

CTR or no CTR? If so, complete a Section A for both John & Jane and then check "conducted on own behalf" in Section B?

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#1602779 - 09/13/11 02:15 PM Re: CTR question AuditorK
BSABecky Offline
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BSABecky
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 126
Seymour, IN USA
No CTR. John and Jane have separate TINs. You can assume deposits are for the benefit of joint owners, but not withdrawals.
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#1602808 - 09/13/11 02:41 PM Re: CTR question AuditorK
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
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Next to Harvey
I would file it because I would not want to waste time discussing it with the auditor or examiner who thought I should have.

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#1602809 - 09/13/11 02:45 PM Re: CTR question BSABecky
AuditorK Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 961
PA
I'm reading differing opinions on this matter. Some have gotten responses from FinCEN stating a CTR should be filed in this situation. FinCEN also issued Administrative Ruling 92-2 that says a CTR should be filed. Since our automated system for aggregation has identified the transaction, I'm leaning towards filing.

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#1602821 - 09/13/11 02:52 PM Re: CTR question AuditorK
Dani York, CRCM Offline
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Dani York, CRCM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,663
TN
I would file in this situation. While the transactors and the benefactors may be acting as individuals, the funds came out of the same account. I would file in order to track flow of funds from the account. Complete 2 section As and 2 section Bs.

It could be an attempt at structuring, so a SAR filing may be in order as well. You'll want to investigate that.
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#1602836 - 09/13/11 03:05 PM Re: CTR question Dani York, CRCM
AuditorK Offline
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PA
Follow up question, since I've decided to file a CTR:

Since this account was opened ~25 years ago, we don't have ID information on file for these two customers. Since each individual cash withdrawal was less than $10,000 and the teller didn't ask for it at the time of the transactions - how do we complete the CTR without information to put in box 14? We have attempted to obtain ID information from the customers, but they are uncooperative. Will it be returned to us as incomplete?

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#1602853 - 09/13/11 03:14 PM Re: CTR question AuditorK
Elwood P. Dowd Offline
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Elwood P. Dowd
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Next to Harvey
I would say putting "Refused" in box 14 pretty well describes the situation and puts a nice big bow on the SAR Dani suggested might be appropriate.
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#1602935 - 09/13/11 04:34 PM Re: CTR question Elwood P. Dowd
BC78a Offline
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BC78a
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 311
New York
Deposit: For deposits into a joint consumer account. Both names belong on the CTR in Section “A” and “Multiple Transactions” should be checked in line “1”

Withdrawal: For withdrawals from a joint consumer account. Usually only the person making the withdrawals is listed on the CTR not both parties. The only exception is when the bank has actual knowledge that the withdrawal benefits both parties.

Examples:
John and Mary maintain a joint account.
a. On January 2nd, Mary deposits $50,000.00 in cash into the joint account. Both John and Mary should be listed in Section “A”. Both benefit from the deposit.
b. On January 3rd, John withdraws 11,000.00 in cash from the joint account. Only John should be listed in Section “A”. The Bank has no knowledge that Mary is benefiting from the withdrawal.
c. On January 4th, John cashes a check for $11,000.00 against the joint account. The check was payable to John and Mary. Both John and Mary should be listed in Section “A”. The Bank has knowledge that Mary is benefiting from the check (her name is on it).
d. On January 5th, John makes a cash withdrawal of $11,000.00 from the joint account. As the teller prepares the CTR, John mentions that he is taking the money out to pay for Mary and his vacation. Both John and Mary should be listed in Section “A”. The Bank has knowledge that Mary is benefiting from the withdrawal.
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