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#2014572 - 05/16/15 10:20 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Losing game because you have bad coaches is cheating?
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#2014573 - 05/17/15 12:31 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) RVFlyboy
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Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
Originally Posted By HappyGilmore
do I think the Patriots have a history of cheating? - yes

So do the Saints. So do the 49ers. So do the Broncos. So do the Falcons. So do the Browns. So do the Seahawks. So do the Jets. So do the Dolphins. Shall I go on? Does a team's history taint them forever?


How does this become justification for the action? Because other people are cheating I can too?
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#2014576 - 05/18/15 12:34 AM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) Sound Tactic
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Originally Posted By Sound Tactic
Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
Originally Posted By HappyGilmore
do I think the Patriots have a history of cheating? - yes

So do the Saints. So do the 49ers. So do the Broncos. So do the Falcons. So do the Browns. So do the Seahawks. So do the Jets. So do the Dolphins. Shall I go on? Does a team's history taint them forever?


How does this become justification for the action? Because other people are cheating I can too?
It's not justification for any action. It's pushing back on the notion that some people have that the Patriots have a "culture of cheating" and that no other team has such a culture, and because of this culture any suspicion automatically escalates to full-fledged "cheating".
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#2014577 - 05/18/15 12:38 AM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) edAudit
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Originally Posted By edAudit
Bad memory
?

Hours after leaving tampa he signed with the pats not even enough time for him to contact his to Contact his atty.
I believe they worked out most of the details during the 3-day "legal tampering" period immediately preceding free agency that the league out in place a couple of years ago. If that's cheating, then so is what the Dolphins just did with Suh. The difference with what the Jets did was that Revis still had a year remaining on his contract with the Patriots and was not a free agent at the time Woody's tampering remarks were made.

Also, nice how you just glossed over the main question of my post you quoted - how is one to know which rules violations are "cheating" and which are not?
Last edited by BeechFlyboy; 05/18/15 12:40 AM.
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#2014578 - 05/18/15 09:09 AM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Cheating is purpusly taking an unfair advantage. Offsides, illegal formation unnessary rougness, (see Nfl on field penalties)is not cheating. See Patriots for cultural cheating.
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#2014580 - 05/18/15 11:46 AM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) edAudit
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Originally Posted By edAudit
Cheating is purpusly taking an unfair advantage. Offsides, illegal formation unnessary rougness, (see Nfl on field penalties)is not cheating. See Patriots for cultural cheating.
But you said the Jets tampering with Revis wasn't really cheating. How is that not purposely taking an unfair advantage. If you're going to call cheating, at least be consistent, instead of consistently biased. In your world the Patriots are the only cheaters and regardless of what anyone provides to document otherwise, we are to believe their level of cheating far surpasses anyone else's.

If you'd be interested in more unbiased discussion, here's another good analysis of what's going on here with this particular incident of "Patriot cheating": http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...ustic/#comments
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#2014581 - 05/18/15 11:57 AM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Making an off the cuff quote to a reporter that Revis claims he did not hear is not cheating (possibly not even tampering but goodall had to give back to Kraft). Same claim had been mad by the Jets about the Kraft quote also not cheating. The rule does not make sense as well when the NFL insists that team members/owners talk to reporters but can not answer the direct questions asked without "tampering". Now if he discussed contract terms with a player while under contract that should be tampering.

"otherwise, we are to believe their level of cheating far surpasses anyone else's."


Yes now you get it
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#2014584 - 05/18/15 12:01 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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But prosecutors routinely become convinced that the persons they’re investigating have committed crimes. A fair system of justice requires prosecutors to test their evidence through an adversarial process, with the defendant challenging the proof and presenting evidence of its own — and with a third party hearing the evidence and making a decision.


That is exactly what would have happened had Brady cooperated. As for third party Vincent and Kraft buddy Goodall.
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#2014587 - 05/18/15 01:10 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) RVFlyboy
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Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy


Still trying to determine who wrote the article.
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#2014588 - 05/18/15 01:20 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) edAudit
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Originally Posted By edAudit
Now if he discussed contract terms with a player while under contract that should be tampering.

"otherwise, we are to believe their level of cheating far surpasses anyone else's."


Yes now you get it
He said "If we had known we could have got him for the $14 million that the Patriots are paying him, we absolutely would have gone after him". How is that not discussing contract terms with a player while under contact with another team? Are you saying that only if the contact is directly with the player is it tampering? If that's your argument, then every team could just tamper by contacting players agents. Even if Revis didn't hear the remark directly, I'm quite sure it was relayed to him and I'm pretty sure his agent would have heard it as well. You just don't want to acknowledge that any other team but the Patriots cheats.
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#2014590 - 05/18/15 01:27 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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everyone cheats so the Pat can cheat as well is your defense?

The Regulators decided that JPM, HSBC, Citi, Aions... had BSA issues so that allows every bank to have them?

not buying the logic.
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#2014592 - 05/18/15 01:35 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Not my logic at all. See post #2014576 above. But your logic seems to be that because the Patriots have cheated before, how could this not be cheating.
Last edited by BeechFlyboy; 05/18/15 01:36 PM.
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#2014594 - 05/18/15 01:38 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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I would think that deflating a football cheating as much as having movable goal posts that are closer for the home team than the visiting
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#2014595 - 05/18/15 01:40 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) edAudit
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Originally Posted By edAudit
I would think that deflating a football cheating as much as having movable goal posts that are closer for the home team than the visiting
So glad you're not running the league, then.
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#2014596 - 05/18/15 01:42 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) RVFlyboy
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Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
Not my logic at all. See post #2014576 above. But your logic seems to be that because the Patriots have cheated before, how could this not be cheating.


They have cheated in the past and have cheated again I do not get the point. The Broncos messing with Salary Cap money is also in a way cheating but they did not let the air out of their footballs>
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#2014597 - 05/18/15 01:46 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Listen, you are so rabidly anti-Patriots and I am so rabidly pro-Patriots that we are never going to come to a point of agreement. Why don't we just agree to disagree and leave it at that?
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#2014598 - 05/18/15 01:51 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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sound like a Plan but I have not been anti Pat at all. Just Brady and Belechik. They have a lot of talent on the team and should have won without any (for your benefit) extreme bending of rules and if the suspension hold would still have a good chance of starting 4 and 0.
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#2014621 - 05/18/15 02:47 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) RVFlyboy
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Originally Posted By BeechFlyboy
I am so rabidly pro-Patriots


so, let's imagine that 3 months from now the NFL has reviewed the case, as collective bargaining requires, and the conclusion is Brady was involved. Would you still disagree?

Further, to try and lower the suspension from 4 games to 2, Brady admits he was involved. Would you then say he was just saying this to decrease the suspension?

Just curious if there is any scenario where you would admit that actual cheating occurred.
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#2014636 - 05/18/15 03:32 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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I've already admitted that cheating may have taken place. I have also had no qualms admitting that cheating did take place in the filming of defensive signals in 2007, and for that the Patriots and Belichick were punished. What I won't admit is that the filming incident means there is a "culture of cheating" associated with the Patriots. I also don't think the NFL is independent enough to review the process. I understand that's what's called for in the collective bargaining, but it doesn't change the fact that the NFL has a dog in the hunt. They have a lot of egg on their face if the facts don't support that Brady was involved. So there is already no question in my mind that Goodell will uphold Troy Vincent's punishment decree. Still doesn't prove Brady was involved. If Brady admits he was involved, then I'll take him at his word, just like I am now, and say he absolutely broke the rules. But absent an admission from him or stronger proof that just being mentioned in a couple of texts for giving away some shoes and autographs combined with having said some time ago that he preferred his footballs on the softer side (and 12.5 is softer than 13.5) and refusing to give over his personal cell phone in today's media sensationalist world over celebrities as the circumstantial evidence on which to conclude he must have cheated, then no.

Let's then imagine that 3 months from now, Goodell upheld the suspension, Brady sued the NFL and the judge vacated the suspension and said there was not sufficient proof that Brady knew or was involved. Would you then say cheating did not happen?
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#2014641 - 05/18/15 03:39 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
no long winded explanation needed here - yep, i'd say it didn't happen
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#2014648 - 05/18/15 03:53 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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I agree that the NFL is not independent enough to review what happened. Here is my problem with the whole situation. Belichek has cheated and Brady has cheated (maybe two different situations but I still contend B knew about the balls.

So what should the NFL do? IMO what Brady did tarnished the game, his own legacy, and put into question all past Super Bowls won by him. It also makes me question his ability, statistics, and career. So what should the NFL do about someone who knowingly compensates and puts undue influence on someone to help him cheat. I don't know. The NFL has an interest in keeping Brady in the league. He is a fan favorite, the Patriots are a winning team, and banning him or B would tarnish the last 15 years of the NFL. So they won't do anything with any teeth. The problem is that Brady did not commit any crime. So who would look at this type of thing? I personally do not know. But the punishment fitting what Brady did was a lifetime ban from the NFL.
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#2014650 - 05/18/15 03:55 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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I for one do not want to see this in court. Why waste tax payer money on this.
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#2014880 - 05/19/15 01:41 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) Sound Tactic
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Originally Posted By Sound Tactic
I agree that the NFL is not independent enough to review what happened. Here is my problem with the whole situation. Belichek has cheated and Brady has cheated (maybe two different situations but I still contend B knew about the balls.

So what should the NFL do? IMO what Brady did tarnished the game, his own legacy, and put into question all past Super Bowls won by him. It also makes me question his ability, statistics, and career. So what should the NFL do about someone who knowingly compensates and puts undue influence on someone to help him cheat. I don't know. The NFL has an interest in keeping Brady in the league. He is a fan favorite, the Patriots are a winning team, and banning him or B would tarnish the last 15 years of the NFL. So they won't do anything with any teeth. The problem is that Brady did not commit any crime. So who would look at this type of thing? I personally do not know. But the punishment fitting what Brady did was a lifetime ban from the NFL.


Given your comments above I assume we can insert Jerry Rice's name and you would feel the same? He admitted to using stickem on his gloves, knowing it was an illegal substance.

Regardless of the outcome, people have chosen a side one way or the other and I don't think too many people will change their mind if new information comes out.
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#2014890 - 05/19/15 02:08 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Pulling people out of the ditc...
was the admission made during or following his playing career?
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#2014891 - 05/19/15 02:10 PM Re: More NFL Cheaters (not the Patriots this time) HappyGilmore
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Originally Posted By HappyGilmore
was the admission made during or following his playing career?
Why does it matter? Doesn't it still tarnish his legacy, and bring into question all his stats and Super Bowl wins?
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