We have a borrower who is in the construction business that travels quite a bit and wants to purchase a 5th-wheel camp trailer to live in for jobs away from home. The Glossary in "A Guide to HMDA Reporting Getting It Right!" says that a "dwelling means any residential structure whether or not attached to real property...(Recreational vehicles such as boats or campers are not dwellings under HMDA.)" I understand that normally a camp trailer would not be HMDA because it is recreational vehicle. However in this case I am wondering if we do need to report it since it won't be used for recreational purposes.

This is not a Recreational Vehicle for this borrower. It is their dwelling. I vote that it is HMDA reportable.

I disagree. A 5th wheel, even if used as a dwelling, is not a residential structure. Even houseboats or saliboats are sometimes used as dwellings, and may be subject to Reg Z, but are not residential structures for HMDA and therefore not covered. Often retirees sell their homes and buy motor homes, but still are not subject to HMDA. HMDA requires a property location (does not have to be attached), and these types of non residential structures are not normally stationary and would not have a designated ct. These types of loans would be for recreational vehicles used for primary dwellings, sugject to Reg Z, but not HMDA.

Good point. If it is HMDA, what would you record for the property location? Thanks Anon.

What would be the difference between this and a mobile home?

That was my original thought, but Anon may me think about location. A MH will have a location. A 5th will can move often. So, I'm leaning towards (can you tell that I'm guessing?) reporting if they say that they will have it in 1 location, but not reporting if they plan to move it around. Geez - I don't think I have ever been this wishy washy on anything before.

C'mon, David. Speaking for myself, I can't even get you and "wishy washy" into the same thought.

HMDA clearly includes a mobile or manufactured home. These are designed and built for residential purposes. Even thou they can be relocated, they are generally stationary. HMDA does state that for mobile or manufactured homes, if the location is not determined the property location is NA. Of course this can happen only if the loan does not close. For example someone is applying to purchase a MH and do not yet know what MH park they are going to put it in. We deny it and a location is never determined. If it closes, you have to know where it will be located as you also have to do a flood determination. Closed MH loans will have a property location. While we are discussing MH's, we are seeing MH co-ops where we sometimes secure a loan with the co-op share only and do not take a lien on the MH. These loans are not subject to HMDA as they are not secured by a dwelling, and not for the purpose of HI. Don't know how common these are out there, but we are in a MH state.

OK, try this ......email the HMDA helpline at hmdahelp@frb.gov

Just ask them for an opinion to you question and they will email you back with an answer usually within 2 days. You might want to keep a copy of the email you get back.

Let us know what they tell you.

A few years back I had the same question. Customer was getting a loan to buy a travel trailer. Their intention was to drive this all over the country staying in campsites or along the side of the road for the next 2 years.

Since it was obvious that their intention was to live in the thing, I called our regulator (FDIC) and asked if this was HMDA reportable. The quick answer was "NO!"

That brings me to a similar (and somewhat facetious) question of mine - If your customer is homeless and wants to refinace his/her car, does the right of rescission apply?"

No it shouldn't be HMDA reportable. The Getting it Right manual spells this out. The travel trailer is closer to a camper than a MH.

Recreational vehicles such as boats or campers are not dwellings under HMDA.

I'm sorry to disappoint you complyguy. I'm with bwest on this one. Email the HMDA help line. You can't lose if you have it in writing from them.

What a tremendous amount of time and resources we have to spend on one little question. Don't you love HMDA!?

In reply to:

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You can't lose if you have it in writing from them.

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Now that is optimistic!

I always train that Reg Z rules apply if we take a lien on whatever the borrower lives in - even if that's a car. That may be a little on the conservative side - but better safe than sorry! I'm quick to point out, however, that if we're loaning money on a person's car/residence - we and they have some major issues outside of Reg Z!

I would not report this on HMDA as the 5th wheel is never going to be in one place very long. The person travels "quite a bit" and wants to live in it for "temporary jobs" away from home. It is not like he is setting it up and living in one place for a year or so. He intends to be constantly on the move. It is a travel trailer/recreational vehicle and is being used as such.

That's my story and I am sticking with it.

David - I'm not disappointed. Whenever there's a long thread with differing opinions and I'm pressed for time, I scan down for your post to get the final word.

Bonnie, Reg Z commentary 226.2(a)(19)(2) says,

" Use as a residence . Mobile homes, boats, and trailers are dwellings if they are in fact used as residences, just as are condominium and cooperative units. Recreational vehicles, campers, and the like not used as residences are not dwellings." (emphasis added)

As for the redneck stuff - I didn't know you had met that part of my family!!

But, here's the problem. The question relates to whether the loan is HMDA reportable or not. The commentary from Reg Z is not relevant to that question. Commentary to Reg C definition of dwelling says definitively: "Recreational vehicles such as boats or campers are not dwellings for purposes of HMDA." Nothing further about whether or not it's used for residential purposes.

Of course, the waters of this thread did get muddied with some additional references to Rescission - so for those purpsoes your commentary may well be appropriate, but not for the HMDA question.

You're absolutely correct! The rescission discussion was a 'rabbit trail' - as we say out here in Redneck Land. I meant to point it out as such! Thanks for bringing us back on topic.

Would you geocode the PO Box where they receive mail?

Travel trailer and 5th wheels are not subject to HMDA. However, if this question is general, as if HMDA applicable would you code a PO Box. The answer is no, you need to know the location. If no street address you may need to look at a map to obtain the correct CT. However, some of the geocoding programs geocode to the center of the zip code if they cannot locate the property address. Sometimes that is all you have, especially if the loan is not closed and all that is in file is a PO Box. That's why it is so important for the lenders/originators to understand HMDA and know the importance of obtaining the physical location.

In training the answer is, "do they live in a PO Box"?

These can be a real pain, especially when it is a denied loan and you can't count on any borrower cooperation.

I did e-mail hmdahelp and this is the reply:

"If you feel that it is HMDA reportable simply provide the support for your decision, should your regulatory examiners question why it is included."

Now that is conclusive, "If you feel that...". Heck, you didn't know and that is why you asked!

I also had HMDA Help tell me to report 4-plexes as multi-family, which it isn't for Reg. C.

I don't want to be mean, but are these ex-HUD staffers?