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#349916 - 04/23/05 12:56 AM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Anonymous
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Previous poster here. I meant to say that this is why PRIVATE schools are thriving.
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#349917 - 04/23/05 03:17 AM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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Z and Jokerman, you might consider looking beyond the word you are having issues with and into the content and the meaning of the play, and the expression on the button. This is about bringing attention to women and abuse.
I don't care what the play is about. I never said boo about it. What I would care about, if my child was in this school, is a non-disruptive environment. I wouldn't care about the reason for a pin with the word "testicle" on it, either, even though maybe it was trying to promote self-exams.
Really, Dawnie, I don't see why you don't have an "I heart my vagina" placard outside your office door, since you think it is a great thing to promote in a school.
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It's not about an invitation to her vagina for gods sake.
Nobody said it was. The question is, does it's presence make my kid more or less likely to learn derivatives while they're sitting in calc?
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#349918 - 04/23/05 03:26 AM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
Z and Jokerman, you might consider looking beyond the word you are having issues with and into the content and the meaning of the play, and the expression on the button. This is about bringing attention to women and abuse. The play is often preformed in schools, and yes, they use the title, but nothing is said. Instead, this girl, who is attempting to bring attention to the issue, is told by an adult that it "might give boys the wrong idea". That's a great deal like "you were raped because you were dressed that way". Ignorant and beyond appropriate from an adult.
No. This is like telling a woman who is wearing a t-shirt that says Fbomb me and a really short skirt that if she dresses this way she RISKS getting raped. It's a warning before the crime, not an excuse for why the crime happened. Any adult SHOULD be telling young girls wearing inappropriate clothing and/or accessories about what young boys might think.
And what might happen because she is wearing the button isn't even the reason to ban it. It was banned because it was disruptive and offensive to one of her teachers.
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#349919 - 04/23/05 03:58 AM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,719
PA
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For those that think the school should have allowed the pins: Is the fact that the girls were supporting a worthwhile cause enough to allow the pins, even though these pins 1) mention a sexual organ 2) do not independently relay the underlying cause to the reader and 3) are easily subject to misinterpretation? Let's apply these three criteria to a new situation and see if we come up with the same answer: Suppose a high school boy wants to promote teen abstinence, because it is important to him and he feels that other teens can benefit from learing about abstinence. So he starts wearing a pin or tshirt that says "I'm proud of my penis". Well, he has every right to be proud, because he, and specifically his penis, are leading a life that he believes is right. But others who read his slogan are not likely to make the connection between his pride and his abstinence. He needs to find another way to get his message across, and so do the girls in this article. Something else that jumped out at me was this piece from the article that I don't believe anybody has touched on yet: Quote:
"We support free speech," she (principal Nancy Wondrasch) said. "But when it does infringe on other people's rights and our school policies, then we need to take a look at that."
Wondrasch said she thought they had worked out a compromise with the girls, allowing them to set up a table in the school to discuss women's issues. But Rethlefsen said school officials are insisting that they review and approve any information the girls want to present.
So they're turning to the T-shirts, paid for with money collected from friends and supporters. "And we're going to wear them sometime next week," Rethlefsen said.
So what I am reading here is that the school was willing to let the girls share their message, but asked them to rethink their delivery. Makes perfect sense to me.
But then the girls balked when the school insisted on reviewing the material to be presented. I'm sorry, but the school has a right- no, make that a duty- to perform said review.
This portion of the saga reminds me of a 2001 case from my own alma matter, which centered on the school's policy of reviewing flyers and other material that students wished to distribute. This link is interesting because it offers legal opinion regarding the student's standing on each of his claims. (The facts of the case were never tried in court, as the parties eventually reached a settlement.)
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#349920 - 04/23/05 09:14 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,912
Outside A Garage
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Would it be OK if my son (I don't have one, but what if) wanted to "bring attention to women and abuse" by wearing a pin that said "I Heart Your Vagina". Would that be considered disruptive?
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#349921 - 04/24/05 12:23 AM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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I went to the Weiner Dog Races in Buda Texas today and I saw a grown man wearing a t-shirt that said I Heart My Weiner.  It refered to his dachshund (Weiner dog), not his penis. Think it ought to be allowed in school?
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#349922 - 04/25/05 06:28 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,353
Anchorage Alaska
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The button Swimware mentions would not actually fit within the gist of the movie or play. The funny thing is, ya'll have a problem with the button, but they put this play on in schools. What the heck? That's ok, but having the girls who see it embrace the slogan after learning about the issue through the play is somehow wrong? Z and Jokerman....I do strongly support women's issues. I also support women who stand up for the issues, but I didn't say that this was a cause I am taking up full time. It is my choice to provide this support by volunteering and financially supporting agencies that provide help to women in my community. These girls choose awareness as their avenue of support. Just because I support their choice of support, does not mean that "I" have to do as they do. I think their contribution is as valuable as mine, but I'm not asking them to cut a check. It's silly to say that the only validity in my support of the girls would be to wear the button as well. I think it's an interesting play, that causes interesting questions to be asked. I didn't think it was acted particularly well when I saw it. I wasn't embracing the play, I was embracing the girls for standing up for something of value. You want to make a pin that says that...I'm all for wearing it 
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Dawn Coursey VP/CRA Queen
CRA Rating is in...Oh who cares...I'm home with the baby.
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#349923 - 04/25/05 06:42 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Dawnie, you want the school to be a place to make a social statement. I want it to be a place to learn. And forgive us, but yes, it is hypocritical to reserve your workplace as a professional area, while encouraging young girls to do differently in a school.
For the record, I don't think Z or I ever said it was ok to have this play in schools. How many times am I going to have to say that I am not opining on the play?
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#349924 - 04/25/05 07:22 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,719
PA
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Quote:
It's silly to say that the only validity in my support of the girls would be to wear the button as well.
So we agree that there are other ways to promote awareness of women's issues. And that's all the school asked the girls to do- find another, less disruptive, way to get their message across.
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#349925 - 04/25/05 07:26 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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Actually, I am barely opining on the word or the button at all. What I am opining about is the right of the schools to determine how to best run their schools without someone who was merely asked to remove a button turning it into a national issue.
Posts here have accused the school of making too big of a deal about this, but let's examine who did what:
the school: 1) allowed the play, 2) asked the girl to remove the button; 3) as a compromise, agreed to let her set up a booth to raise awareness once they'd saw the materials they were to hand out.
The girl: 1) refused their compromise offer because the responsible administrators (gasp) wanted to see the materials ahead of time; 2) contacted the ACLU; 3) contacted the media (or the ACLU did).
OK, who made too big of a deal about this pin that this girl can wear whereever she likes outside of school?
Too many people supporting this girl here are thinking with their emotions, which almost always leads to the wrong answer. You can support her issue and still support the school's right to ask her to remove the pin.
I hope the school encourages them to express themselves and their opinions and gives them the logic, writing, and speaking skills to do so. However, the school does not have a duty to give them a soap box on which to do it or to allow them to bring their own soap box to school with them.
Last edited by Dr. -Z-; 04/25/05 07:33 PM.
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Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city
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#349926 - 04/25/05 07:27 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Hey, what the girl's button had said, "Accept Allah or Burn in Hell"????
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#349927 - 04/25/05 07:37 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Power Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,353
Anchorage Alaska
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Actually, as we mature, making social statements and standing up for what is right is part of the "Schooling" of life. If she wore the button and the boys at school began taunting her, she's learn that it had a different connotation to them than to her, and perhaps that "Schooling" might lead her not to wear it, but this wasn't the case. She wore it for some time, until a teacher had a fit. I am not remotely being hypocritcal and you're wrong in saying so. I don't have to wear every stupid slogan in America that I feel is "ok" to feel that standing up for that cause is right. How rediculous would that be? The school did not have a "no slogan" rule in place when she wore that button. If they did, this would be a different discussion. We do have that rule. I personally like the no slogan rule because it keeps God, Politicians, Plays, etc., out of the office. If they had the same rule I'd support the school's decision, as long as they enforced it fairly. That's not hypocritical in any stretch of the term. For the record, I didn't say that you or Z said it was ok to have this play in schools. I belive that issue was brought up in my post prior to the statement specific to your question. So there is no need to say you are opining or not opining the play rest at ease.
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Dawn Coursey VP/CRA Queen
CRA Rating is in...Oh who cares...I'm home with the baby.
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#349928 - 04/25/05 08:06 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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the "Schooling" of life
Oh, good grief...
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I am not remotely being hypocritcal
Are so!
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and you're wrong in saying so.
Am not!
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I don't have to wear every stupid slogan in America that I feel is "ok" to feel that standing up for that cause is right. How rediculous would that be? The school did not have a "no slogan" rule in place when she wore that button. If they did, this would be a different discussion.
We do have that rule. I personally like the no slogan rule because it keeps God, Politicians, Plays, etc., out of the office. If they had the same rule I'd support the school's decision, as long as they enforced it fairly. That's not hypocritical in any stretch of the term.
So at this school, where there is no slogan prohibition policy, it would be ok with you if some of the students wore "abortion stops a beating heart" pins?
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#349929 - 04/25/05 08:34 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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She wore it for some time, until a teacher had a fit.
Who said a teacher had a fit? Sound like a teacher asked her to remove it and ever since, she has been throwing a fit.
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The school did not have a "no slogan" rule in place when she wore that button. If they did, this would be a different discussion.
Dawnie, let's say that your office did not have a "no slogan" policy. Would you criticize your bank's president if he made a teller remove an "I <3 My Vagina" button before even one customer complained?
Rules Schmules! The school does not need a rule for everything. If the teacher thought it would make things disorderly or would offend, she/he should have the right to ask the girl to remove it before it offends or things get disorderly. I suppose the teacher should have told the girl what the next step was if she still wanted to wear it. (I would assume that step would be to go to the Principal.) Until the girl takes that next step and gets approval, she should not wear the pin.
Schools and teachers do not have time to deal with 2,000 children running around getting the schooling of life by acting independently. Leave that to when she shows up at the Dairy Queen with that pin.
You are making it completely the girl's decision and I am sorry, but that just ain't gonna cut it.
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#349930 - 04/25/05 11:03 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Where can I get one of those t-shirts. I wonder if I can wear it on casual fridays...
Master McGee, you have a Vagina?????? 
No, I want a shirt that says, "I Support Your Vagina" I'm sure that would be a nice conversation starter...
How the heck do you "support" a vagina?  
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#349931 - 04/26/05 03:04 AM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Where can I get one of those t-shirts. I wonder if I can wear it on casual fridays...
Master McGee, you have a Vagina??????
No, I want a shirt that says, "I Support Your Vagina" I'm sure that would be a nice conversation starter...
How the heck do you "support" a vagina?
I dunno, but I do know how to support a penis.
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#349932 - 04/26/05 03:04 AM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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...with an athletic supporter.
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#349933 - 04/26/05 01:31 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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...with an athletic supporter.
I thought that was for supporting the scrotum. OK, who was that? Who giggled? Was that you bluebanker? This kind of talk is completely disrupting BOL.
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#349934 - 04/26/05 02:13 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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10K Club
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,321
oHiO
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Quote:
I went to the Weiner Dog Races in Buda Texas today and I saw a grown man wearing a t-shirt that said I Heart My Weiner. It refered to his dachshund (Weiner dog), not his penis. Think it ought to be allowed in school?
No- so much drama in school nowadays its pathetic.
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#349936 - 04/26/05 02:54 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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I still maintain the whole thing would have blown over if the school wouldn't have made it an issue. She would have worn the pin for a while and if/when it didn't get a reaction she would have moved on to something else.
Where does it stop? What if a stoudent wears a pin in support of the local Hospice and someone finds the mission of Hospice offensive? Should that pin be banned? (And don't bother to say it's different because it isn't) A lot of people are trying to make this issue about the rights of schools to maintain order. I think the real issue is the word (gasp) vagina .
The issue is partly the word vagina. The issue here, however, IS about the schools rights to put a stop to something that is controversial and maintain order so that the students can learn! That's the point of schools.
Are you telling me you know so little about pimply faced teenage boys to think that this isn't a disruption that should be stopped BEFORE there is a problem instead of waiting for the problem and THEN stepping in?
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#349937 - 04/26/05 03:02 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Power Poster
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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I am not telling anyone they are wrong or hypocritical or emotional or yellow bellied.
Why don't you go back and read the post that I responded to that said that?
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Yes, everyone should wear approved uniforms, walk in straight lines, and not show any independence at all. Just get rid of anyone that is different. Isn't that what Hitler wanted too? I think you are right on the money -Z-
You don't think that was yellow bellied. How would you respond to someone who ANONYMOUSLY compared you to Hitler? Huh?
I do not go on the offensive easily, but I don't expect you to know that. You only have 10 posts here, so you probably have not read many of my posts. If you were a long time poster, you would know that you really have to push pretty hard to get me to react with ire. I think that person pushed pretty hard. Getting my ire may have been their only intention.
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Why is everyone who disagrees with you thinking with their emotions?
And this is based on your ten minutes of experience with me. I actually think that those supporting her took an initial position based on emotion and are now too married to that position to think thoroughly about what is best for the common good. I am not much on individual expression in school. I am for education in school. Look throughout history and you will find that school is not where great acts of individualism occurred. Trust me when I say that our founders went to schools where expressions of individualism got them individual whacks on the behind. Yet, somehow they learned to be independent thinkers. I think that putting the "common good" first creates better individuals than putting good of the individual first.
Also, please show me where I have called anyone hypocritical. I may have, but I don’t think I did. Show it to me and I will reevaluate and maybe edit it. Although, I think it is hypocritical to say that this girl should be able to wear this pin in school, but not agree that the tellers at your bank should be allowed if there were no policy against it.
Do I think you are wrong. Yes, I do. And you have clearly said that you think I am wrong. Do I think you are thinking with your emotions, yes I do? So what? You disagree, right? And you expressed that. I think those supporting this girl are more worried about what the next thing that will be banned than you are about the greater good of the students' education and the right of the teacher not to be offended.
BTW: Where is your criticism of Dawnie who said that Jokerman and I are getting close to thinking like idiots. I am sure that with your ten minutes of posting time here you have seen that she always does that.
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#349938 - 04/26/05 03:07 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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I'm the one that said it was hypocritical for Dawnie to encourage this disruption in a school, but not in her own office.
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#349939 - 04/26/05 03:28 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,153
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It is funny that liberals who have scoffed when the slippery slope argument has been used on BOL are using the "what's next" (slippery slope) argument to defend this girl.
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#349940 - 04/26/05 03:41 PM
Re: Offensive Material or Free Speech?
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,994
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I'm so sorry, I didn't realize you had to be a Power Poster to have an opinion.
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