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#472653 - 12/21/05 06:18 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 921
Down South, USA
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Funny how only evolution is attacked in this way, when there are scores of other theories that are equally unproveable, but go unchallenged.
I wonder why that is? Not politics though. 
Because the only area of science that was covered in the Bible was the creation of the Earth, plants, animals, and the Universe. If the biblical scribes and prophets had written about gravitation, catalytic chemistry and particle physics then we'd have the same issues there also.
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#472654 - 12/21/05 06:23 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
Funny how only evolution is attacked in this way, when there are scores of other theories that are equally unproveable, but go unchallenged.
I wonder why that is? Not politics though.
Because the only area of science that was covered in the Bible was the creation of the Earth, plants, animals, and the Universe. If the biblical scribes and prophets had written about gravitation, catalytic chemistry and particle physics then we'd have the same issues there also.
No other theory is put in your face the way this one is. No other theory is taught so extensively to students. No other theory is taught as fact and treated as holy. A better question might be why the scientific community treats this theory differently than other.
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#472655 - 12/21/05 06:34 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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Explain to me why it is so wrong to discuss the theory of ID and the theory of religious beliefs in our schools but it is so right to discuss the theory of evolution. I'm not saying ID and Religious theories belong in the science curriculum but I am asking why is it so wrong to discuss them under other curriculums?
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#472656 - 12/21/05 06:35 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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10K Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,846
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The theory is very difficult (at best) to ever prove.
Well, I would say that the problem is that ID is not a theory, precisely because it cannot be proven or disproved. It is a question for philosophy class, not biology.
I would disagree, however, with the praise for a court holding that teaching ID is an instance of government establishment of religion. I normally would say that the judge is just following bad SCOTUS precedent, but given the gratuitous slap at those who favored teaching ID, I kind of doubt it.
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#472657 - 12/21/05 06:45 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Platinum Poster
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 921
Down South, USA
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.... No other theory is put in your face the way this one is. No other theory is taught so extensively to students. No other theory is taught as fact and treated as holy. A better question might be why the scientific community treats this theory differently than other.
Utter humbug. It is only the religious right that has kept the topic bubbling in a few US states. Evolution is largely ignored in the UK - taught (warts and all) in biology classes at high school, but it is only a small part of the biology curriculum, and therefore a tiny part of the overall curriculum for high school students. It isn't considered controversial, it isn't treated differently, it isn't given special prominence, and it certainly isn't considered "holy".
If the religious nuts would give it a rest, the controversy would also go away here. If there is any defensiveness by the scientific community (specifically evolutionary biologists) it is only because they, and they alone, have been placed in the firing line by scientifically illiterate religious zealots.
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#472658 - 12/21/05 06:47 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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Jokerman, I think the precedent is quite correct and this judge is a conservative man.
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#472660 - 12/21/05 06:53 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Jokerman, I think the precedent is quite correct
I don't. I don't think the founding fathers ever intended local school cirriculum, decided by a local school board, to be a federal issue.
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and this judge is a conservative man.
I have no knowledge on this matter. I do believe some of the comments in the opinion were over-the-top.
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#472661 - 12/21/05 06:58 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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I don't. I don't think the founding fathers ever intended local school cirriculum, decided by a local school board, to be a federal issue.
But I don't think that separation of church and state is really what that is specifically about. The constitution is a framework for laws to fit within.
And I think the judges comments, based on our local coverage, were more an admonishment to the parties that there is no place to slide something into the law under the guise that it was something else.
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#472662 - 12/21/05 07:14 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Power Poster
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,990
Cincinnati, OH
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.... and the theory of religious beliefs in our schools That is illegal in publically funded schools (in the US).
Sorry, but no, it isn't illegal. The theory of Intelligent Design does not discriminate against any religion whatsoever. It is not a concept soley related to one religion, and is thus not discriminatory towards anyone except atheists, who by baring ID are actually breaking the law. Even an agnostic can say there could be merit in ID.
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#472664 - 12/21/05 07:26 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Evolution is largely ignored in the UK - taught (warts and all) in biology classes at high school, but it is only a small part of the biology curriculum, and therefore a tiny part of the overall curriculum for high school students.
It is presumed as fact in every other curriculum. I'll guarantee you that when they discuss or write about other matters in other classes, they'll use the word "evolved" in a sentence about animals without batting an eye. It doesn't need to be a large part of the other curriculum because they just presume it is true and move on.
Sure its holy. If you read some of the writings of evolutionists, you'd see that they protect their precious evolution against any dissent within their community. Go on an evolutionary discussion website and start talking innocently about the problems with evolution and you'll get flamed and it wont' be as nice as what people call flaming here.
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#472665 - 12/21/05 07:33 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Joined: Feb 2005
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OK wait, who actually does not believe in evolution?
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#472666 - 12/21/05 07:43 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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.... and the theory of religious beliefs in our schools ....
That is illegal in publically funded schools (in the US).
....
Sorry, but no, it isn't illegal ....
..... Do you know what a non-sequiteur is?  ......
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.... The theory of Intelligent Design ....
The context of my comment on the legality of teaching was confined to the quote I included, which made no reference to ID.
If in science class, someone asks what was there before the BIG BANG, how do you suggest teachers answer? Is it ok to talk about a higher being or do we have to say that we can't discuss that until science figures it out. We can only talk about what theories scientist have for what might have been there. But then that begs the question of what was there before what science thinks was there. And then before that what was there? And before that? And before that? And before that? We keep going until we finally get to the point where we must say that "nothing was there." But then "what is nothing and is that scientifically possible?"
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#472667 - 12/21/05 07:50 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Actually science has discussed before the big bang. You can tell them that.
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#472669 - 12/21/05 07:51 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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Actually science has discussed before the big bang. You can tell them that.
and what pray tell does science say was there? and how it got there? and what put it there? and what was there before it?
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#472670 - 12/21/05 07:56 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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sure, and the world is flat. Give us time, we will not answer all of your questions in one day. But we will. And maybe the answer will be god. But lets wait till someone proves that exists first.
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#472671 - 12/21/05 07:56 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 730
Maine
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.... and the theory of religious beliefs in our schools That is illegal in publically funded schools (in the US).
Sorry, but no, it isn't illegal. The theory of Intelligent Design does not discriminate against any religion whatsoever. It is not a concept soley related to one religion, and is thus not discriminatory towards anyone except atheists, who by baring ID are actually breaking the law. Even an agnostic can say there could be merit in ID.
Actually, don't count on an agnostic finding merit in ID. The term agnostic was actually popularized by a biologist named Huxley, who wrote an essay that was directly aimed at the science/religion argument. At the time he wrote, there were still "scientists" who took as fact that the world was the 5000 or so years old that some theologians had claimed, and then tried to fit what they saw around them into that framework. Agnosticism, according to Huxley, was the practice of not starting with anything "known" like that, but rather using scientific method to observe and study and THEN concluding, not the other way around.
Besides, why would an agnostic NEED to believe in intelligent design?
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#472672 - 12/21/05 07:57 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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Actually science has discussed before the big bang. You can tell them that.
Most science teachers would know this. Most reputable science teachers would not say "it was god". Maybe an English teacher teaching science might say that.
Would a reputable science teacher say, "some say it was GOD"?
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#472673 - 12/21/05 07:58 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Sure, then he could go on to say, but no one has ever proven that god exists.
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#472674 - 12/21/05 07:58 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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But I don't think that separation of church and state is really what that is specifically about. The constitution is a framework for laws to fit within.
So, what was the federal issue?
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And I think the judges comments, based on our local coverage, were more an admonishment to the parties that there is no place to slide something into the law under the guise that it was something else.
I don't see the relevance. The subject matter either was unconstitutional or it wasn't. I don't see how the motives affect that.
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#472675 - 12/21/05 07:59 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Anonymous
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sure, and the world is flat. Give us time, we will not answer all of your questions in one day. But we will. And maybe the answer will be god. But lets wait till someone proves that exists first.
No, I want to discuss it now. What a cop out! And evolutionists think those who don't believe their theory have blinders on. The pot calling the kettle black.
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#472676 - 12/21/05 07:59 PM
Re: Way To Go, Judge Jones!!!
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Power Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,349
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What, OK lets discuss now. Show me god. I'm waiting.....
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