Thread Options
|
#1210359 - 06/30/09 08:31 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
Big Blue Banker
|
Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
|
Call your best college contact (high up as you can get) and explain it is required by Federal regulation and there are significant penalties for noncompliance. Do they really want you to call the IRS to find out what other alternatives you have because he won't provide the required info (bluffs sometimes work).
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1210398 - 06/30/09 09:02 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
JacF
|
10K Club
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 40,086
Cape Cod
|
You can submit a single CTR on paper, along with the cover letter. For whatever it's worth, take a look at section 103.63: No person shall for the purpose of evading the reporting requirements of Sec. 103.22 with respect to such transaction: (a) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to fail to file a report required under Sec. 103.22;
(b) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to file a report required under Sec. 103.22 that contains a material omission or misstatement of fact; or
(c) Structure (as that term is defined in Sec. 103.11(n) of this part) or assist in structuring, or attempt to structure or assist in structuring, any transaction with one or more domestic financial institutions. Do you suppose that a missing SSN in Section B is considered "material"?
Last edited by John Burnett; 06/30/09 09:02 PM.
_________________________
John S. Burnett BankersOnline.com Fighting for Compliance since 1976 Bankers' Threads User #8
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1210561 - 07/01/09 02:01 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
John Burnett
|
10K Club
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,939
Next to Harvey
|
A SAR is necessary...
_________________________
In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant.
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1210698 - 07/01/09 04:16 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
Kathleen O. Blanchard
|
Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
|
FWIW, I agree. I equate refusal to provide the SSN with changing a transaction at the teller window once learning of the reporting requirement. Both are direct attempts to evade reporting. And if the college couldn't convince him to cooperate (or make me believe they gave it their best effort), I would exit that relationship. It just can't be tolerated.
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1211057 - 07/02/09 01:39 AM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
JacF
|
10K Club
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 40,086
Cape Cod
|
I don't think you have a reason to close the relationship, although clearly that's your bank's call. It was your teller that created this problem by not getting the needed info up front.
_________________________
John S. Burnett BankersOnline.com Fighting for Compliance since 1976 Bankers' Threads User #8
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1213354 - 07/07/09 02:42 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
John Burnett
|
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 18,765
Central City, NE
|
It was your teller that created this problem by not getting the needed info up front. Exactly! And had the teller asked for it at the proper time, the customer would have provided the SSN or management would have had a talk with the customer and this wouldn't have been as issue. Therefore, (according to the logic of most responders in this thread) teller error leads to suspicious activity by customer? I think this is a FAR reach. Did you inform the customer you are completing a CTR? If not, how does he know he's evading. Put yourself in his shoes. You said he's not a customer. He completes the transaction and every thing's fine. Then he gets a call from a bank (not his) that informs him they need his SSN. Why? The transaction is done (his thinking). Everyone's paranoid about giving out the SSN these days (rightfully so). So now he's conducting a criminal act? You can file the SAR, but be sure to state that the teller didn't request this info at the time of the transactions. I'm sure FinCEN won't give a hill of beans about it. Just my 2 cents worth.
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1213541 - 07/07/09 05:27 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
David Dickinson
|
Diamond Poster
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,390
USA
|
Could not agree more with you David, SAR seems far reaching in this circumstance. Teller training would be a better course of action.
_________________________
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1213586 - 07/07/09 06:12 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
Elwood P. Dowd
|
Diamond Poster
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,390
USA
|
I'm not sure I follow what the point of your comment is Ken, do you feel a SAR should be filed or no?
_________________________
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1213608 - 07/07/09 06:27 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
David Dickinson
|
Diamond Poster
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,108
gone fishin'
|
Did you inform the customer you are completing a CTR? If not, how does he know he's evading. Put yourself in his shoes. You said he's not a customer. He completes the transaction and every thing's fine. Then he gets a call from a bank (not his) that informs him they need his SSN. Why? The transaction is done (his thinking). Everyone's paranoid about giving out the SSN these days (rightfully so). So now he's conducting a criminal act? I definitely agree it is going to be a tough sell on the bank to get a SSN later ... but what if you explain the CTR & that it is a criminal act to not provide all the required information & he still refuses? Even provide the brochure ... I say - once you explain the law & they still refuse ... you file a SAR.
_________________________
My opinions are my own, and not that of my employer.
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1213672 - 07/07/09 07:23 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
WonderWoman
|
Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
|
That is my line of thinking as well. Did the teller drop the ball? Absolutely. Should additional training be conducted? Absolutely. But to me the issue is not how the problem occurred rather there has been a deliberate attempt to prevent accurate CTR filing. I understand completely his reluctance to provide the information before the law is explained. I even understand his wanting to confirm it himself. But if the refusal continues after that point, he is knowingly and willingly contributing to the bank's inability to file a complete and accurate CTR.
Miss America - You will note further up the thread that Ken indicated a SAR is necessary.
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1213793 - 07/07/09 09:36 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
Elwood P. Dowd
|
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 18,765
Central City, NE
|
According to statistics published this morning, there were 730,000 SARs filed in 2008.
In none of those filings was the issue of whether law enforcement cared about the specific fact situation relevant to whether filing was required. I agree Ken. That wasn't my point.
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1213802 - 07/07/09 09:40 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
BrendaC
|
10K Club
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 18,765
Central City, NE
|
But to me the issue is not how the problem occurred rather there has been a deliberate attempt to prevent accurate CTR filing. Bee has never said they explained to this person a CTR was required. How can be evading if he doesn't even know why they want the CTR. He has no relationship with this bank yet they call him after that fact and ask him for his SSN. How is that evading? I understand completely his reluctance to provide the information before the law is explained. I even understand his wanting to confirm it himself. But if the refusal continues after that point, he is knowingly and willingly contributing to the bank's inability to file a complete and accurate CTR. I don't disagree IF the bank tells the customer why the need it. There's a BIG "IF" here that has not been understood. Only assumed.
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1214112 - 07/08/09 03:40 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
David Dickinson
|
New Poster
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 22
West TN
|
Wow, all the experts disagreeing; Don't see that very often. If I were in your shoes at this moment, I'd send my trusty BSA examiner an email and just ask his opinion. Unfortunately,come exam time, that's really all that will matter anyway...
_________________________
If only Mondays had accelerators and Fridays had brakes...
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1214203 - 07/08/09 04:51 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
David Dickinson
|
Power Poster
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,029
Sweet Home AL
|
Agreed, David. My thoughts were definitely based on some assumptions of routine disclosures and best practices. I certainly wouldn't provide my SSN to a stranger over the phone!
_________________________
Life without Jesus is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1214234 - 07/08/09 05:07 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
BrendaC
|
Power Poster
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,548
Southeast
|
This is the way I see it.
The rules are:
No person shall for the purpose of evading the reporting requirements of Sec. 103.22 with respect to such transaction: (a) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to fail to file a report required under Sec. 103.22;
(b) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to file a report required under Sec. 103.22 that contains a material omission or misstatement of fact; or
(c) Structure (as that term is defined in Sec. 103.11(n) of this part) or assist in structuring, or attempt to structure or assist in structuring, any transaction with one or more domestic financial institutions.
A report required under Sec. 103.22 is a complete and accurate report. If you have no SSN, the report is neither complete nor accurate. It makes no difference whose fault it is. We all know that sometimes multiple transactions slip through before we discover the CTR threshold has been reached and the CTR is needed. If you blame every one of those on the teller, there is a lot of blame to go around, but that does not solve the problem of getting the accurate CTR filed. The bank's job is to attempt to obtain the information, even if it is after the fact. If the person bringing the money does not cooperate, then they have caused the bank not to file an accurate CTR, not the bank. In that case, a SAR is clearly indicated naming the person bringing the money as the suspect.
_________________________
Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason.
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
#1214383 - 07/08/09 07:11 PM
Re: CTR - Individual won't give us his social
David Dickinson
|
Diamond Poster
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,108
gone fishin'
|
I stand by my point, this person did not evade a CTR. I agree ... but they "(b) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to file a report required under Sec. 103.22 that contains a material omission or misstatement of fact; " I agree - the whole thing is really a bank error - I agree it's frivolous ... but until they change the law ... I just don't see how we could get around it??? IF we notify the customer of the regulation & consequences & they still don't supply the Material information, then they are violating Sec. 103.22 (b).
_________________________
My opinions are my own, and not that of my employer.
|
Return to Top
|
|
|
|
|
|